Thanks Panther appreciate the quick reply… Duh… my mistake!!
France's role in Global 1940 SE
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Re: Warfare Principles of Axis & Allies (by AndrewAAGamer)
@AndrewAAGamer I would disagree about France. France can be really helpful. They have a Fighter in London. And 5 guys in Africa. If the person playing as France saves the French fighter I fly it down to Algeria and stack with 2 or 3 men plus the fighter. After that I push my way east towards Egypt. The Guy in Syria Goes down to Egypt same with the guy in French West Africa. If their fleet in the Mediterranean survives it can evacuate and help the fight againsent the German Sub barrage, or other German ships. The Destroyer in French Madagascar can go to Egypt or India. And if their is a guy in French Indo China he can go backwards to India. If it goes really well for the French they will have 74 IPC’s. They have 8 Infantry, 2 Destroyers, 2 Cruisers, and 1 Fighter. This is the best scenario for them. Worst is they make it out with 6 Infantry, 1 Destroyer. The Worst case is not as good but the French still can do stuff. They are not pointless. When they get or if they get back in the game at the end they can pump out 19 IPC’s each round. This could be 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, and 1 Tank.
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I never said the French units could not be helpful. In fact, I said the opposite; I said even a single infantry is important. However, France, as a Power, has no role in the game.
Typically, by the time France goes, there are 11 French units on the board. (2 infantry, fighter in London… infantry, artillery in Normandy… 5 infantry in Africa/Middle East… and a destroyer off Kenya) While you want to use them as effectively as possible that does not qualify as a role in the game.
Even if France is liberated, which happens about 10% of the time, France still doesn’t have much to do. They try and defend their capitol and trade nearby German areas; not very exciting. You would never give France to a single Player to play the game.
BTW, using League Bid Rules, there cannot be a French guy in FIC.
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@AndrewAAGamer Their role is assisting the Allies they could also be mini can openers in Africa or when they are liberated in Europe. You could say their role is to annoy the Axis, to make the Axis spend as much IPC’s as possible on them. They do have a role.
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@AndrewAAGamer I’m saying that if the setup the player chooses has one their. And btw their should at least be one guy in Indo China. To prove this, there were about 50,000 troops in Algeria this equals one French Infantry according to the setup. While Indo China had 75,000 troops. And their is no Vichy rule as well. So there should be a guy there.
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Please discuss all your house rule ideas in the House Rule Category of this forum.
This is why I have moved all your house rule related topics to that category.
(See https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/30354/forum-rules and especially https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/29901/rules-for-handling-house-rules)Thank you.
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Still, it’s hard for them to act independently. Your descriptions are how they assist the Allies. I guess by role he means a significantly independent task/goal and the ability to do it. For example, the Soviets or Chinese can do quite a lot by themselves with no other Allied powers (even if they’re heavily outgunned). France, not so much.
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@SuperbattleshipYamato They can defend west north africa. They can defend with 3 guys an d a fighter. They can also use their ships to attack convoys.
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Yep. But 90% of the time that’s usually done to help other Allied powers. See above what I think Andrew means by role. Not just being able to contribute in some way, but acting independently by itself in a siginificant way. France’s contribution is usually so small even compared to smaller powers like ANZAC and China that it doesn’t make sense to put them on the same footing as those two (I’ve had games where both became a monster, almost none with France).
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@FranceNeedsMorePower You continue to confuse useful with having a role in the game. France has no role. Every Player wishes the French units would just convert to UK units as soon as France falls. Every unit on the board is useful, that does not mean the French Player, if anyone was unlucky enough to be only controlling France; would have any measurable role to play in the game.
Nevertheless, feel free to think anyway you want. This thread is not about whether France has a role or not so if you want to continue with this topic please open up a new thread. Thank you…
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@AndrewAAGamer The role is taking as many axis units with them. It also says this in the rulebook.
They need to take down as many units with them, they cannot prevent the inevitable they can just take the Axis down with them. This is a role. It’s like saying Anzac does not have a role, which is do annoy Japan and be a mosquito.
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@AndrewAAGamer Anyone who wants them to turn U.K. is mistaken. Having France go last may be bad but then can act like can openers, and have layered effects.
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@AndrewAAGamer The role is “Taking as many Axis units down with them as possible” this is also historically accurate.
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P Panther referenced this topic
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@SuperbattleshipYamato You said almost none with France, does that mean France became a monster in one of the games you played, if so I would love to hear the story. I’ve had games were China took back Shanghai all by it’s self. Anzac none. I remember the first time I played Europe 1940 accidently miss read the setup chart and put 2 Infantry and a Artillery in Normandy an Sothern France instead of 1 Infantry an Artillery. The Germans had to really think hard about how to take France.
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@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:
The role is taking as many axis units with them. It also says this in the rulebook.
Every Allied unit on the board is trying to take as many axis units with them as possible; the French units doing what every other single unit on the board tries to do does not mean they have a role that is unique to France. That is how all units are used. It is like saying all units are trying to win the game. Of course, all units are trying to win the game. But what is their specific role to win the game?
France does not collect any income in 90% of the games played. They have no specific role that is required to win the game. Every single French unit that survives the Fall of France could die without killing a single axis unit and the Allies can still win if the Allied Powers with roles can accomplish their goals. That is not true of the Allied Powers that actually do have a role. If they fail in their mission the Allies will lose.
@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:
It’s like saying Anzac does not have a role, which is do annoy Japan and be a mosquito.
ANZAC’s specific role is to trade the money islands and/or beef up the defensive strength of the US Fleet. ANZAC also has a unique advantage that it goes after the US and therefore it can reinforce areas that the US has taken.
@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:
Anyone who wants them to turn U.K. is mistaken. Having France go last may be bad but then can act like can openers, and have layered effects.
Actually that is not correct. French units cannot be can openers because Germany goes right after France. What French units can do is be blockers, especially in the Middle East, since they go after Italy and before Germany.
@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:
They can defend west north africa. They can defend with 3 guys and a fighter. They can also use their ships to attack convoys.
French units don’t defend west North Africa. What defends west North Africa is the Axis don’t want to take French areas that are collecting no money for the Allies only to have the territories retaken by British or American units and then be collected the rest of the game. As for ships - you are talking a single French destroyer 95% of the time and it doesn’t attack convoys, it almost always acts as a blocker. The truly only valuable resource the French have is the fighter, which almost always makes it to Moscow, and the 2 French units in London that help defend London and if the Allies make strong landings in Normandy act as defensive units there.
Now I have answered your points and questions. Please answer mine. What role do you think France has that is unique to France while collecting no money?
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@AndrewAAGamer For can openers I mean against Italy. France does not have a unique role just like China, Anzac and Russia. There strategy/role is not unique it is straight forward. Same with France take as many units with them as possible. They have a role but it is not unique or strong. There role is minor but does exist. Also if the Brits don’t do really good in the Toronto raid the Italians may attack them instead of the French boats by Southern France. Also, what you said about the Anzac proves my point. Anzac role is to trade with the money islands is not really a role just a goal according to your standards. If That is part of their goal then part of Frances goal is to do what I said before, like Defending what they can of North Africa, ALSO assisting the Allies as you said before. You also said it can reenforce the areas the US takes same with France in Africa. France’s job also could be to annoy the Axis. They can do this in many ways. I could mention them if you would like.
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@FranceNeedsMorePower When I said France Russia etc. do not have a role I was going by your standards.
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@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:
The Germans had to really think hard about how to take France.
Why? The French units can’t possibly take France back and the losses inflicted are insignificant if not, as shown below, detrimental.
On average the standard German attack (7 infantry, 3 artillery, 4 mechs + 6 armor) lose 7.5 units taking France. Even going up to 10 units lost that still leaves 4 mechanized infantry and 6 armor. Typically, Southern France falls to the Italians which completely makes your comment moot. Therefore, lets say, just for discussion, for some reason Southern France is not attacked. Maybe the Germans want it for a Med port. That gives France 4 infantry and 2 artillery, using your over stacked units, to counter attack France. Plus, a possible fighter from London.
Italy, normally, will put a single AAA into France before France goes so the maximum attacking force is 4 infantry, 2 artillery and a fighter vs 1 AAA, 4 mechanized infantry and 6 armor. The odds of winning that battle are 0.13% or 1 in 769 attempts. On average, the French kill 3.25 units or 2 German mechs for all intensive purposes. If the French sit and wait for the Germans to attack them they would kill more on average; 5.3 units.
(5.3 units assumes 6 defenders at 2 rolling only one round = 2 hits. PLUS one fighter in Moscow going 5 rounds = 3.3 hits. Total of 5.3 hits.)
So, again, why would the Germans think hard about taking France?
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@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:
For can openers I mean against Italy.
France cannot can-open against Italy because Germany goes before any other Allied Power.
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@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:
@AndrewAAGamer For can openers I mean against Italy. France does not have a unique role just like China, Anzac and Russia. There strategy/role is not unique it is straight forward. Same with France take as many units with them as possible. They have a role but it is not unique or strong. There role is minor but does exist. Also if the Brits don’t do really good in the Toronto raid the Italians may attack them instead of the French boats by Southern France. Also, what you said about the Anzac proves my point. Anzac role is to trade with the money islands is not really a role just a goal according to your standards. If That is part of their goal then part of Frances goal is to do what I said before, like Defending what they can of North Africa, ALSO assisting the Allies as you said before. You also said it can reenforce the areas the US takes same with France in Africa. France’s job also could be to annoy the Axis. They can do this in many ways. I could mention them if you would like.
Okay, let’s make this simple.
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The Allies CAN win the game even if there was not a single French unit on the Board at the end of Turn 1, before France goes. Therefore, France has no role in the game.
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The Allies CANNOT win the game if you remove any other Allied Power from the game. (Russia, China, US, UK and ANZAC.) Thus, all of these Allied Powers have a role in the game.
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@AndrewAAGamer To go more in depth on what happened, France stacked in Normandy and 6 Guys and 2 Artillery, the extra guys were brits from the the transport, and 2 fighters one French one British. And Germany made it out of France with all planes in tact. And only 6 tanks 3 Artillery and 1 Mech.
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