L22 #1 trulpen (X+6) vs ArtofWar1947 (A) P2V

[gamerman01]

I just heard from LaFayette:

Hi, good to hear from you! Unfortunately there is not a good way to check history for dice rolls. Rewriting Marti to add features like auditing is on the road map…

I’d recommend to tell the player that the roll is being investigated, and remind them that cheating would result in a year long ban (or something like that). Meanwhile let it stand as the player probably was not cheating, it wouldn’t make a lot of sense (and we can’t really tell one way or another)

Now this is me: I think the year-long ban is on the triple A forum - not here.
His reply is FWIW. What do you think, Art? Do you want me to pursue further, and if so, how?

[trulpen]

Hi again. I’m back. I’ll try my best to help resolve this, although I can’t really see how at the moment.

@gamerman01 said in L22 #1 trulpen (X+6) vs ArtofWar1947 (A) P2V:

Art says he got 2 sets of MARTI messages, first with 7 hits, second with 6 hits

Contemplating the above quote. It’s stated 7 hits on the so called first roll and 6 hits on the supposed other (my first). I don’t mean to mitigate art’s claim, since cheating is a definite no-go, but I wouldn’t exactly call the difference game changing.

I’ve looked at the position now. If I understand it correctly the situation is actually in turn 22, when Germany did a follow up air strike in z97. This was actually also after Italy did a sacrificial pre-strike with 1 fig, 1 tac where Italy hit 1 and US had an amazing 0 hits on defence.

I wouldn’t actually call 7 hits instead of 6 (but I think it was 5 first and 4 next) “a highly favorable outcome”, to quote @ArtofWar1947.

Also, it’s worthy to note that Germany had long ago crushed Russia and Japan was already a monster with firm control of Asia and no real problems on the ocean. At the beginning of turn 22 Axis has an economic lead of 191 against 155. It was a very lost cause for the Allies already at this point.

As gamerman said earlier there’s just no rational incentive for Axis to cheat, objectively speaking.

[ArtofWar1947]

@gamerman01

Pardon the delay; it was a busy week. Without a way to check the dice rolls, I am not sure what else you can do.

[ArtofWar1947]

@gamerman01

After finishing the present game with Trulpen, I plan to take a leave of absence from league play. Let me know when the Marti problems are resolved. Until then, it is too easy to cheat and make denials that cannot be disproved. I noticed that Trulpen has been in the league almost 3 years now and has never contributed any support to the league; perhaps he can pick up the slack.

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen said in L22 #1 trulpen (X+6) vs ArtofWar1947 (A) P2V:

Contemplating the above quote. It’s stated 7 hits on the so called first roll and 6 hits on the supposed other (my first). I don’t mean to mitigate art’s claim, since cheating is a definite no-go, but I wouldn’t exactly call the difference game changing.
////As note earlier in the chain, the 6 hits was a typo; it was actually only 4 hits.

I’ve looked at the position now. If I understand it correctly the situation is actually in turn 22, when Germany did a follow up air strike in z97. This was actually also after Italy did a sacrificial pre-strike with 1 fig, 1 tac where Italy hit 1 and US had an amazing 0 hits on defence.
/////Correct.

I wouldn’t actually call 7 hits instead of 6 (but I think it was 5 first and 4 next) “a highly favorable outcome”, to quote @ArtofWar1947.
/////It could have turned the tide of that battle, especially if the Germans underperformed. Furthermore, 7 hits on the German air would have been difficult to replace, making it more challenging to retake Italy and defend W. Europe.

Also, it’s worthy to note that Germany had long ago crushed Russia and Japan was already a monster with firm control of Asia and no real problems on the ocean. At the beginning of turn 22 Axis has an economic lead of 191 against 155. It was a very lost cause for the Allies already at this point.
/////This overlooks Japan handing the US about ipcs and not building for two turns.

As gamerman said earlier there’s just no rational incentive for Axis to cheat, objectively speaking.
/////Gamerman was quoting LaFayette, who did not carefully consider the (circumstantial) evidence, including your initial willingness to disregard the German sub rolls to gain an unfair advantage in the present turn.

[gamerman01]

@artofwar1947 said in L22 #1 trulpen (X+6) vs ArtofWar1947 (A) P2V:

After finishing the present game with Trulpen, I plan to take a leave of absence from league play. Let me know when the Marti problems are resolved. Until then, it is too easy to cheat and make denials that cannot be disproved. I noticed that Trulpen has been in the league almost 3 years now and has never contributed any support to the league; perhaps he can pick up the slack.

Leaving the league for awhile makes sense with what happened here. If I realize or hear the MARTI issues have been fixed, I’ll let you know if I remember (in the case that it is months or longer down the road).
I’m not sure how you define supporting the league - one significant way to support the league is to play a lot of league games, which he has. I would be interested to know what you mean.

If this is a concession of the game, please post in the league results thread. I tried to help as best I could, and I’m sorry I couldn’t give a more satisfying answer, but I don’t know a lot about the beneath the scenes MARTI stuff.

All the best -
gamerman01

[ArtofWar1947]

@gamerman01 said in L22 #1 trulpen (X+6) vs ArtofWar1947 (A) P2V:

Leaving the league for awhile makes sense with what happened here. If I realize or hear the MARTI issues have been fixed, I’ll let you know if I remember (in the case that it is months or longer down the road).
Thanks, I would appreciate it.

I’m not sure how you define supporting the league - one significant way to support the league is to play a lot of league games, which he has. I would be interested to know what you mean.
I was referring to the annual fund drives ($10=bronze, $25=silver, $50= gold).

If this is a concession of the game, please post in the league results thread.
I don’t like quitting on some thing I’ve started. I will finish the game if the dice-roll issue is resolved.

I tried to help as best I could, and I’m sorry I couldn’t give a more satisfying answer, but I don’t know a lot about the beneath the scenes MARTI stuff.
I understand, thanks for your effort.

[trulpen]

It’s been over a month. Shall we continue?

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

Are Marti dice now reliably reported?

[trulpen]

I think they are, but don’t have any insight in their work. I seem to be getting all dice in a good way now for a long time.

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

What is your plan for taking into account the German subs have already rolled and missed?

[trulpen]

Like I said, I usually do it in a certain way, which can easily be seen in other games, even when it is to my disadvantage. Since you oppose this and want to take advantage, the decision is yours and I have to keep the dice, despite rotten initial odds for a scramble.

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

As noted previously, a scramble was the only sensible choice.

[trulpen]

Ok, I can continue with that. Keeping the dice then.

[trulpen]

So lets see, I roll the battle with the extra defending figs, but adjust for any hits from german subs, right?

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

I think the easiest solution would be: Edit out the two German subs who have already missed and edit in an extra German CV. This would compensate for the loss of two hits on the subs and add no firepower. Then scramble the three Allied fighters and re-start the battle.

[trulpen]

1 sub hit, but I’ll restart the battle and edit it out. 4 hits. Not obvious, so I’ll let you choose.

L22 #1 trulpen vs AoW P2V battle.tsvg

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

1 hit each on the BBs + sink the CV.

[trulpen]

G29 L22 #1 trulpen vs AoW P2V.tsvg

Game History

Round: 29

   Research Technology - Germans



   Purchase Units - Germans

       Germans buy 3 carriers, 1 destroyer, 3 fighters and 3 infantry; Remaining resources: 1 PUs; 



   Combat Move - Germans

       1 unit repaired.

       3 fighters moved from Yugoslavia to 113 Sea Zone

       1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Western Germany to 113 Sea Zone

       1 battleship moved from 128 Sea Zone to 115 Sea Zone

       1 submarine moved from 127 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone

       1 battleship, 3 carriers, 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers and 1 submarine moved from 115 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone

       2 fighters moved from 115 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone

       1 infantry moved from Northern Caucasus to Southern Caucasus

             Germans take Southern Caucasus from Russians



   Combat - Germans

       Germans creates battle in territory 99 Sea Zone

       Americans scrambles 3 units out of United Kingdom to defend against the attack in 113 Sea Zone

       Battle in 113 Sea Zone

           Germans attack with 1 battleship, 3 carriers, 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers, 6 fighters, 2 submarines and 1 tactical_bomber

           British defend with 2 battleships, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine; French defend with 1 cruiser; Americans defend with 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 5 fighters and 2 transports

               Germans roll dice for 2 submarines in 113 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/2 hits, 0,67 expected hits

           Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the British

               Germans roll dice for 1 battleship, 3 carriers, 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers, 6 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber in 113 Sea Zone, round 2 : 4/11 hits, 5,50 expected hits

           Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the British

               Americans roll dice for 1 submarine in 113 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,17 expected hits

               Americans roll dice for 2 battleships, 1 carrier, 3 cruisers, 2 destroyers, 5 fighters and 2 transports in 113 Sea Zone, round 2 : 7/13 hits, 7,00 expected hits

           Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the Germans and 3 carriers owned by the Germans

               1 destroyer owned by the Germans, 2 submarines owned by the Germans, 1 carrier owned by the Americans and 1 submarine owned by the British lost in 113 Sea Zone

           6 fighters owned by the Germans and 1 tactical_bomber owned by the Germans retreated

           1 battleship owned by the Germans, 1 destroyer owned by the Germans, 3 carriers owned by the Germans and 1 cruiser owned by the Germans retreated to 115 Sea Zone

           Americans win, taking 99 Sea Zone from British with 2 battleships, 3 cruisers, 2 destroyers, 5 fighters and 2 transports remaining. Battle score for attacker is 2

           Casualties for Germans: 1 destroyer and 2 submarines

           Casualties for Americans: 1 carrier

           Casualties for British: 1 submarine

       Moving scrambled unit from 113 Sea Zone back to originating territory: United Kingdom

       Moving scrambled unit from 113 Sea Zone back to originating territory: United Kingdom

       Moving scrambled unit from 113 Sea Zone back to originating territory: United Kingdom

           2 fighters owned by the Americans forced to land in United Kingdom



   Non Combat Move - Germans

       Turning on Edit Mode

       EDIT: Adding units owned by British to 111 Sea Zone: 1 submarine

       EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

       Turning on Edit Mode

       EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

       3 artilleries moved from Stalingrad to Northern Caucasus

       3 infantry moved from Ukraine to Rostov

       3 infantry moved from Russia to Samara

       3 aaGuns, 7 armour, 18 artilleries, 45 infantry and 7 mech_infantrys moved from Northern Caucasus to Southern Caucasus

       8 infantry moved from Yugoslavia to Bulgaria

       2 artilleries and 6 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Yugoslavia

       4 artilleries and 6 infantry moved from Sicily to Southern Italy

       2 armour and 2 mech_infantrys moved from Sicily to Northern Italy

       3 infantry moved from Southern Italy to Northern Italy

       4 infantry moved from Southern Italy to Northern Italy

       3 infantry moved from Southern Italy to Northern Italy

       2 infantry moved from Southern Italy to Northern Italy

       2 artilleries moved from Western Germany to France

       1 artillery moved from Western Germany to France

       3 infantry moved from Western Germany to France

       1 infantry moved from Western Germany to France

       9 artilleries moved from Norway to 115 Sea Zone

       1 infantry moved from Norway to 115 Sea Zone

       9 artilleries and 1 infantry moved from 115 Sea Zone to Western Germany

       EDIT: 1 submarine moved from 111 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone

       1 fighter moved from 113 Sea Zone to France

       5 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 113 Sea Zone to 115 Sea Zone



   Place Units - Germans

       3 infantry placed in Stalingrad

       3 carriers and 1 destroyer placed in 115 Sea Zone

       3 fighters placed in Western Germany



   Turn Complete - Germans

       Germans collect 74 PUs; end with 75 PUs

       Trigger Germans 7 Atlantic Wall: Germans met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 78 PUs

       Trigger Germans 5 Swedish Iron Ore: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 83 PUs

       Objective Germans 3 Control Caucasus: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 88 PUs

       Objective Germans 2 Control Stalingrad Or Leningrad Or Russia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 15 PUs; end with 103 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans regular : -0,17

Germans regular : -1,17

[trulpen]

Guess Russia has not much to do, so I’ll continue with Japan. You can just move that fig later, if you want.