Building Italian fleet - is there a point?

[U-505]

@bongaroo:

How many games of yours have a German sub in the Med, let alone multiples?  I’ve never seen any reason for the Germans to purchase any boats nor had an IC that was capable of building them into the MED.

1 or 2 for me.

How does this happen in your games?

Germany attacks sz12 and one or both of the SS survive and on their turns either the UK or US have other priorities or they fear counterattack by Axis units so the SS are allowed to survive. They are dead meat if they stay in sz12 and it would be suicide to send them back up north so they go into the Med.

[atarihuana]

even if 2 subs survive. 2@1 vs DD / 2 bombers should be more than enough US1.

[U-505]

@atarihuana:

even if 2 subs survive. 2@1 vs DD / 2 bombers should be more than enough US1.

Absolutely. But, it sometimes ins’t enough. 1 hit each and the second SS would survive. And I can’t speak for what everybody would do with the US units when faced with the 2 SS in sz12. It doesn’t happen very often but I have had a game where there were 2 German SS in the Med.

I also have a KJF game going where it is turn 3 and 1 German SS has been sitting in sz12 for the whole game.  :-)

[dondoolee]

@bongaroo:

@dondoolee:

How many games of yours have a German sub in the Med, let alone multiples?  I’ve never seen any reason for the Germans to purchase any boats nor had an IC that was capable of building them into the MED.

How does this happen in your games?

1-2 can get put in there, and if you really wanted, Germany may be able to build a sub on T1.  Even so the subs are just a chery on top deal.  The Italian navy is dead as soon as the Allies want it gone.  The fact is the navy can be gone by t2 if the allies really thought it was that important, (especially if you sit a turn and wait to buy a carrier) The defense comes from German airplanes being a threat to the allied fleet.  There lies Italy’s best bet for defense (and still the Jap carrier if you really insist on defense).

I am of the opinion, the faster Italy can get ground troops out, and open up a point of a legit threat to Russia (Think about a 1-2 punch w/ Italy-Germany or maybe even Italy-Japan) the better shape the Axis are in.  This can be accomplished T3 or 4, and if the allies start comming in, use the Italians as a way to stall before the Germans have to deal with them.  Italy is in a prime position to get the Ukraine and Cauc don’t waste it.  I think the biggest easy mistake for either the Axis or the Allies is to over commit to Africa.  Usually when one does that the other side wins.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

@dondoolee:

@bongaroo:

@dondoolee:

How many games of yours have a German sub in the Med, let alone multiples?  I’ve never seen any reason for the Germans to purchase any boats nor had an IC that was capable of building them into the MED.

How does this happen in your games?

1-2 can get put in there, and if you really wanted, Germany may be able to build a sub on T1.  Even so the subs are just a chery on top deal.  The Italian navy is dead as soon as the Allies want it gone.  The fact is the navy can be gone by t2 if the allies really thought it was that important, (especially if you sit a turn and wait to buy a carrier) The defense comes from German airplanes being a threat to the allied fleet.  There lies Italy’s best bet for defense (and still the Jap carrier if you really insist on defense).

I am of the opinion, the faster Italy can get ground troops out, and open up a point of a legit threat to Russia (Think about a 1-2 punch w/ Italy-Germany or maybe even Italy-Japan) the better shape the Axis are in.  This can be accomplished T3 or 4, and if the allies start comming in, use the Italians as a way to stall before the Germans have to deal with them.  Italy is in a prime position to get the Ukraine and Cauc don’t waste it.  I think the biggest easy mistake for either the Axis or the Allies is to over commit to Africa.  Usually when one does that the other side wins.

A good German player might be able to take Egypt on T1.  In that case, let Germany blitz through Africa and go after the Middle East, then you either hit Caucuses from the south, or India from the west, and even link up with the Japanese Army.  You still get the NOs. 
I don’t think, however, that Italy can “over-commit” to Africa.  One of the great advantages to having an Italian player is that Germany can focus on a two front war and not worry about a third front to the south.  I say for Italy, go for Africa and Mid-east.  A 30 IPC Italy is a scary thing.

[Funcioneta]

@dondoolee:

Time is not on the Axis’ side

I disagree. Time is not on the allied side, because (with NO’s) axis will reach economic advantage round 3 or 4 as much. It can be easily a 10 IPCs advantage, but I guess when axis strats improve, it will be even better. If allies suicide and try KGF, the advantage will be [k]even[/k] greater (lose of Hawaii, aus, nzel and USA’s Pacific NO, probably added by Alaska). Allies need a way of defending all their territories they can and recover economic parity as soon they can or game will be over

Of course, first priority for UK is killing italian navy or at least forcing her to escape to Indian Ocean. But this is a must, yet not enough, to win

[dondoolee]

@Funcioneta:

@dondoolee:

Time is not on the Axis’ side

I disagree. Time is not on the allied side, because (with NO’s) axis will reach economic advantage round 3 or 4 as much. It can be easily a 10 IPCs advantage, but I guess when axis strats improve, it will be even better. If allies suicide and try KGF, the advantage will be [k]even[/k] greater (lose of Hawaii, aus, nzel and USA’s Pacific NO, probably added by Alaska). Allies need a way of defending all their territories they can and recover economic parity as soon they can or game will be over

Of course, first priority for UK is killing italian navy or at least forcing her to escape to Indian Ocean. But this is a must, yet not enough, to win

While time being on the Allies side I agree is debatable, how many times have you played an 8+ turn game while the Allies lost (other than some MAJOR flukey dice, or a MAJOR oversite)?

[ogrebait]

@dondoolee:

While time being on the Allies side I agree is debatable, how many times have you played an 8+ turn game while the Allies lost (other than some MAJOR flukey dice, or a MAJOR oversite)?

I can’t say that I have a great deal of experience here, but the Axis have won every game that I have played that went past 8 rounds. I have another one going that is in it’s 9th round, and it is still a toss up.

Now, I’ve also had some games that went less than 8 rounds in which the Axis lost (or more correctly, conceded), but that was generally due to a careless error or horrible dice in the early rounds.

The key factor in each of the Axis victories was Japan. It seems to take 7-8 rounds until Japan can build up its forces and get them to the doorstep of an Allied capital. If Germany and Italy can hold out that long, then Japan becomes very difficult to stop.

That being said, individual mileage may vary.

[dondoolee]

@ogrebait:

@dondoolee:

While time being on the Allies side I agree is debatable, how many times have you played an 8+ turn game while the Allies lost (other than some MAJOR flukey dice, or a MAJOR oversite)?

I can’t say that I have a great deal of experience here, but the Axis have won every game that I have played that went past 8 rounds. I have another one going that is in it’s 9th round, and it is still a toss up.

Now, I’ve also had some games that went less than 8 rounds in which the Axis lost (or more correctly, conceded), but that was generally due to a careless error or horrible dice in the early rounds.

The key factor in each of the Axis victories was Japan. It seems to take 7-8 rounds until Japan can build up its forces and get them to the doorstep of an Allied capital. If Germany and Italy can hold out that long, then Japan becomes very difficult to stop.

That being said, individual mileage may vary.

Interesting, I wonder how common that is.  This is a bit off topic, so I think I will create a new thread.  I don’t know if there is a way to cut and paste this conversation, if you know how please feel free to do so.

[ogrebait]

@dondoolee:

I don’t know if there is a way to cut and paste this conversation, if you know how please feel free to do so.

Well, on my computer, hold down the left mouse button, highlight the text of interest, “click” the right mouse button, select “copy” from the drop-down menu, open new topic window, “right click” in the text box, select “paste” from the drop-down menu.

Add your comments and post.

[dondoolee]

@ogrebait:

@dondoolee:

I don’t know if there is a way to cut and paste this conversation, if you know how please feel free to do so.

Well, on my computer, hold down the left mouse button, highlight the text of interest, “click” the right mouse button, select “copy” from the drop-down menu, open new topic window, “right click” in the text box, select “paste” from the drop-down menu.

Add your comments and post.

Wow, talk about the ultimate brain fart.  I guess I wasn’t clever enough to think of something I knew how to do when I was 10 yrs old.  Anyway, it’s copied under the thread “longer games”

[Upside-down_Turtle]

Perhaps there needs to be new strategies developed for an Italian fleet.  Anyone consider invading Brazil?

[ogrebait]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Perhaps there needs to be new strategies developed for an Italian fleet.  Anyone consider invading Brazil?

Been there, done that. It proved to be a good distraction to the US player, but I don’t think it was of great strategic value. I am currently of the opinion that just being in a position to threaten an invasion of Brazil may be useful enough, but only after the security of the Italian Fleet has been taken care of.

A lot depends on how the game unfolds. If the US is not in position to immediately retake Brazil, sacrificing a tranny and 1 inf (10 IPC investment for 6 IPC swing per turn) may be worthwhile.

[dondoolee]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Perhaps there needs to be new strategies developed for an Italian fleet.  Anyone consider invading Brazil?

There is a small (very small) chance you could pincer America into a 2 way sucker punch.  Don’t move navy T1, buy tranny.  Move tranny to edge of Med, set up the Jap navy to attack Alaska on T2.  Or some refined version of that.  Not recomended for serious play, but a funny and fun way to try a strat once or twice in your life.  I haven’t had the balls to try it yet though, as I still feel I am excited about still learning the mechanics of the game (it has not gotten close to stale yet for me).  The reality is though, if the Allies want them dead they are dead.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

i figure id wait for an opening, then do a hit and run.  Land, then pull my fleet far to the south and try and bait the US into chasing me.  see how far they’ll go.  :lol:

[Twigley]

Imagine in Round 1 the UK buy bombers - you know they’re coming for you…

Well it depends - if Germany took Egy - then you can take TJ and your ships are out of UK bomber range.

I would then by a fighter.

Who knows what the UK does next go? She could keep buying bombers - but 4+ seems extravagant - especially as Russia needs a break; so she opts to use her Rnd 1 buy SBRing and buys other stuff. Navy, IC whatever. At this point already Japan will begin eating into the British Empire in the east.

Round 2 Buy an AC, bring your BB, cruisers, transport back and drop 2 Fghtrs onto the carrier.

From now on drop troops onto North Africa. If you are getting NO’s maybe buy alternate combinations of destroyers, subs, and inf/art couplets. At that point Italy’s navy is very powerful.

Should the Germans have an IC in France then it is possible that a careful German sub building campaign (in Baltic/Med) could come together in a big way later in the game with Italian naval back up…

[Zhukov44]

I suppose all this might be possible, but only if USA is going all or mainly Pacific, and only if Germany has a factory in France or Bulgaria/Romania that can reinforce the Med fleet.

[dondoolee]

@Twigley:

Imagine in Round 1 the UK buy bombers - you know they’re coming for you…

Well it depends - if Germany took Egy - then you can take TJ and your ships are out of UK bomber range.

I would then by a fighter.

Who knows what the UK does next go? She could keep buying bombers - but 4+ seems extravagant - especially as Russia needs a break; so she opts to use her Rnd 1 buy SBRing and buys other stuff. Navy, IC whatever. At this point already Japan will begin eating into the British Empire in the east.

Round 2 Buy an AC, bring your BB, cruisers, transport back and drop 2 Fghtrs onto the carrier.

From now on drop troops onto North Africa. If you are getting NO’s maybe buy alternate combinations of destroyers, subs, and inf/art couplets. At that point Italy’s navy is very powerful.

Should the Germans have an IC in France then it is possible that a careful German sub building campaign (in Baltic/Med) could come together in a big way later in the game with Italian naval back up…

I am just confused as to why people think not building any land units for 2 turns would be beneficial for the Axis.  Not only that you are building a purley defensive unit that defends just as much as a destroyer unless you force airplanes on it, not only that but a jap carrier can be sent there in 2 turns, not only that but German airplanes/surviving subs can provide better protection and more flexability than a very expensive unit (by Italinan standards).  Carriers are just not good buys for the Western Axis, particulary Italy.

As far as the 4 bombers, Its still usefull in slowing down Germany because of the SBR’s.  A little excessive, yes, but the real point was if the Allies value the Italian navy that much the navy is dead.  The whole point of the Western theater that must be rememberd is that it is designed for the Allies to rule the ocean and still have enough to take out Germany/Italy.  That is just the mechanics of the game.  If that wasn’t the case than the game could not be winnable for the Allies.  That is not to say Italy should never build a naval unit ever, just probably not on t1  or t2 particularly something as economicaly devestating and useless to her as a CV.

[Panzer Leader]

@Perry:

I’m curious. Do you build boats with Italy?
What would the purpose of Italian ships be, and have you ever acheived anything valuable with the Ita fleet (other than having it wiped out mid-game by US).

I believe that an Italian fleet is very important and chances are the Axis will loose if they loose the Med and Italy’s fleet. A trick I have used on G1 (in 41 and 42 game) is to buy an IC on France right away. On Italy’s turn save all your money and move the whole fleet to south of France. Then on Germany’s turn buy several ships (dd, trans, & sub) to add to the fleet, so on UK’s turn there are too many ships for them to attack. Then on I2 buy a carrier and trans and try to take Egypt and/or Trans-Jordan. On G2 buy more ships and ground forces to move to Africa. Make sure all your transports (I & G) are always full going across every turn, even if just “bridging” to re-inforce. Work on getting all Italy’s NO’s ASAP and keep moving guys across and enlarging your fleet. If Germany can spare the money they could add their own carrier to the fleet and it starts to get real large. Do not buy a German fleet in the Baltic, add it to the Italian fleet, it lasts longer and makes it a lot harder for the allies. 8-)

[dondoolee]

@Panzer:

@Perry:

I’m curious. Do you build boats with Italy?
What would the purpose of Italian ships be, and have you ever acheived anything valuable with the Ita fleet (other than having it wiped out mid-game by US).

I believe that an Italian fleet is very important and chances are the Axis will loose if they loose the Med and Italy’s fleet. A trick I have used on G1 (in 41 and 42 game) is to buy an IC on France right away. On Italy’s turn save all your money and move the whole fleet to south of France. Then on Germany’s turn buy several ships (dd, trans, & sub) to add to the fleet, so on UK’s turn there are too many ships for them to attack. Then on I2 buy a carrier and trans and try to take Egypt and/or Trans-Jordan. On G2 buy more ships and ground forces to move to Africa. Make sure all your transports (I & G) are always full going across every turn, even if just “bridging” to re-inforce. Work on getting all Italy’s NO’s ASAP and keep moving guys across and enlarging your fleet. If Germany can spare the money they could add their own carrier to the fleet and it starts to get real large. Do not buy a German fleet in the Baltic, add it to the Italian fleet, it lasts longer and makes it a lot harder for the allies. 8-)

That is still WAY more costly, less agressive (particularly on your Russian neighbor who does not need ships to threaten you), and less flexible than air units.