If I recall correctly.
Beating J1
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bingo. most of whats being said here seems to be in a vacuum as far as what either Germany or Japan is doing and that they will just wait to be destroyed at a time when initiative of the game is on their side. a 100% US japan play is certain death for Russia, a 100% bomber play means no fleet can defend itself, also Japan has gigantic resources to begin with and can easily block SZ 6 so unless the USA does buy 3 CV it has several turns to do as it will while the allies build up…the USA can’t even determine when the war begins to determine what strategy is best–I know the post is about J1 but the japanese player decides that, not the allies.
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@arthur-bomber-harris said in Beating J1:
@mikawagunichi said in Beating J1:
I have the Indian land units consolidate on Burma on UK1, then move to Shan State UK2.
That is a very aggressive move for the UK as that stack in Shan State cannot be back to the capital to protect until UK4. Can Japan not be in position to capture India on J4? They should have 6 or 7 transports along with most of their air force. Do you just walk out of India and allow an easy sacking which is a big swing even if it can be recaptured immediately?
Agree with @arthur bomber harris here. If UK stacks Shan State on UK 2 then Japan will move to take India on J4. I am good with that as japan.
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@shadowhawk said in Beating J1:
Eh the 4 bombers build on USA1 can attack SZ6 without any issues.
They got 7 movement. its 5 moves to SZ6 and that leaves 2 moves to land, so 3 russian landing spots.
Russia can declare war in R1 on japan, as this does not affect any state on european board. It also have no negative effects and allows russia to move into china.Yep thanks. Brain fart thinking Russia was unavailable as a landing zone since they were not at war. Would need to beef up the SZ6/Japan fleet for sure to take into account the (4) additional US bombers. Have to pull back some of those ships that were staying in the Philippines.
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@mikawagunichi said in Beating J1:
This strategy should accomplish the following:
- Slow Japan’s rapid progress as they have to make defensive moves to protect their fleet starting J3
- Dent Japan’s income
- Allow the US to spend 100% of its income in the Atlantic US 3, 4 and 5
- Provide strategic flexibility. If Japan never allows its fleet to be attacked, the US can fly the bombers to India, then to Cairo or somewhere and they can join forces with the US assets coming from the east coast. The loss of investment in the Pacific can be replaced with another turn or 2 of fleet building off the west coast later.
Thinking we are just going to disagree. I feel I have shown the US air threat is not strong enough to accomplish your stated goal of forcing the IJN to hide and huddle. At best you might force the IJN to block SZ16 though I don’t think so. Therefore, this strategy is not going to keep the Japanese from taking all the money islands, at least trading them early on and gaining ultimate domination over them once the US fleet is forced away. As long as the Japanese can accomplish the goal of taking the money islands they have enough money to stalemate India, stalemate China and still build some fleet units.
If the US spends no money in the Pacific on US3, US4 and US5 Japan is going to have at least 7 and more likely 8-9 carriers in the water versus the US navy having a mere 1. That means the Japanese can do whatever the heck they want and the US fleet will have to waste ships blocking or get annihilated. Even then they can get pushed out of the Pacific altogether once Japan moves against Hawaii.
Early on it really makes no difference if China and India are stalemated versus being actually captured. As Japan I do not have to take them to win the game as the Axis. I just need a fleet that is superior to the US so I can move to Hawaii and take it and hold it and block any attempts by the US to take it back. Then at my leisure I finish off India or take Sydney.
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@andrewaagamer let’s assume that the Allies have a typical 40 PU bid before the game to balance out the match. Do you think there are ways to a KJF bomber strat can be adjusted with to accelerate a counter Japan plan?
I could see a carrier in SZ26, bomber in Hawaii and bomber in W USA leading to immense pressure against the IJN immediately, albeit with huge sacrifice to the European theater. Probably not worth it.
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@Arthur-Bomber-Harris, I agree with @ShadowHAwk. If you give the bid to the US (maybe you put a DD in to buff up sea zone 26 to prevent that J1 variant), then you immediately give Japan more tasty options for J1. Instead, using the bid to buff up ANZAC and UK Pacific seems a better option.
One of the things I’ve done with spare bid money in the past is put an AA gun into the Philippines. It helps the defense a little and has a decent shot at taking out a Japanese plane. I’m not necessarily recommending this for the bid - there are a lot of areas where beefing up the minor Allied players in the Pacific has a bigger impact, like dropping a couple of artillery in China and a guy in Yunnan.
Marsh
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I prefer to spend the money in Europe since I think that that is the side the Axis have an easier time to win on. So not in favor of a BIG Bid in the Pacific but I agree with some of what has been said here.
Places I might put money in if I had enough would be extra infantry for China and/or UK Pacific. One to three artillery for Russia. Maybe a sub for ANZAC?
EDIT - Corrected spelling/typing errors
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@shadowhawk, I always look at bids and how much extra value they can bring in the first couple of rounds. For example a Scottish fighter will both save one of the fleets and help destroy remaining German Navy on UK1 so might return an extra 15 PUs of expected value beyond having a very useful extra fighter for the long run.
The Med sub also adds tremendous value, destroying Italian shipping and possibly causing additional casualties during the inevitable counter attack. Other bids like African units for the UK are also immediately impactful. Obviously the NG infantry is extremely beneficial if allowed.
My question is if any Pacific Allied bids designed to counter the IJN would contribute a huge multiplier of value if combined with a heavy US1 and US2 Bomber build? I want that 30-40 PUs to lead to even bigger changes in the game balance over the first few turns.
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Are we talking about beating J1 or making it harder to accomplish at all?
Marsh
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@ShadowHAwk I am going to agree with @Arthur-Bomber-Harris. I like the bid to save high value units or put the Allies in the position to accomplish some of their major goals. Saving half the UK fleet and stopping Italy cold are high on my list of objectives. Not sure where you would put a high bid in the pacific because I have never done it. You seem to think there is potential so please detail where you would put that bid.
As I said earlier I would agree with some Chinese and UK Pacific infantry, Russian artillery and maybe a sub for ANZAC and UK Pacific and a ground unit for US in the Philippines. That is maybe as much as much as $45 leaving what for Europe? A UK fighter? Not sure I see the benefit of that versus having a strong Britain in Europe. To me the key is Europe. Germany unrestrained is going to win; no doubt. I have seen many a game where Japan is on her knees and the Axis wins in Europe.
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@andrewaagamer. What is the minimum bid spend for the Allies to hold Yunnan on J2?
Here are some of my priorities that add up to 41 PUs
China: art in Kweichow, art in Szechwan, infantry in Yunnan
Russia: Tank in Volgograd, tank in Caucasus. Perhaps an art in Amur and a tank in Sakha to attack Korea on R1?
UK Pacific: Burma art, India mechIf Russia builds three more fighters in Moscow on R1, they can end up in Yunnan the next round and hold the territory.
Has anybody tried this hold-Yunnan at all costs on J2 strategy and if so, did it work? I could see immense problems in the European theater as Germany and Italy can become monsters without having to worry about American interference for many turns, and Russia has weakened themselves considerably.
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@mikawagunichi So any screenshot or tripleA file?
“I’m working through a game now based on the Japan 3 CV purchases and consolidate in the Philippines scenario Andrew laid out above. Busy at work today but once I get through about 4 rounds can put up some screenshots and/or share the triple a file.”
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These screenshots follow your original write up through round 2. I believe we agreed that putting only a small Jap fleet off Malaya J3 would not be safe, so I consolidated the fleet there on J3, then the original fleet joins up with the newly purchased ships in the Philippines J4. I know in the ensuing discussion other options were brought up such as just going straight for India.
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I am confused what happened on J1. See image below for a standard bovine opening. Was Yunnan a failure, or did he not send the 3inf+1art+tac+fighter that is standard and should win a vast majority of times? I wouldn’t spend anything in the Pacific for the United States after Japan got diced.
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What did Japan build on J1? I don’t see any extra IJN that made it down south on J2… what is the opponent doing?
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I see one aircraft task force was destroyed on J2. What did the Allies lose in the exchange?
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@arthur-bomber-harris said in Beating J1:
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I am confused what happened on J1. See image below for a standard bovine opening. Was Yunnan a failure, or did he not send the 3inf+1art+tac+fighter that is standard and should win a vast majority of times? I wouldn’t spend anything in the Pacific for the United States after Japan got diced.
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What did Japan build on J1? I don’t see any extra IJN that made it down south on J2… what is the opponent doing?
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I see one aircraft task force was destroyed on J2. What did the Allies lose in the exchange?
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I personally don’t send that much to Yunaan since any land units that live will die when China couterattacks, I like to take Hunan, send 2 info Kwangtung, and have all TTs fully loaded.
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2 TTs, 1 minor complex
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This file may be corrupted or AAA is glitching but I’m getting tons of errors when viewing history. Thought I got it worked out but I didn’t catch the missing carrier there. Nothing has been destroyed, there hasn’t been any major naval combat yet.
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@mikawagunichi it looks like Japan defeated itself on that J1 opening. The position is so much inferior than typical for a bovine playbook. I am very confused what happened to all of the units in SE China since they accomplished so little unless somehow they got diced. I think your opponent is quite weak.
If Yunnan is being intentionally skipped, the priority will be to capture India on J3 or J4 as China is already out of control at the end of the first round with little ability to get it back down until an additional Allied regional power is defeated. Japan need a 3 transport purchase on the first round, leaving out the mIC because time is of an essence.
J2: a) attack Burma with a loaded transport and all of the air that can reach. b) capture Malaysia and Shan State. c) build an air base and harbor in FIC, being prepared for a J3 capture of India with 4 loaded transports and about 19 planes.
Alternatively the attack on India can be delayed until J4, but time is of such an essence with the USA1 bomber build. Probably best to go early to knock out a power and then return to the Spice Islands in an unusual chronological order given the unusual start.
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I followed the plan as laid out by AndrewAAgamer. That discussion didn’t get into land unit movements, it was really just about keeping the Jap fleet safe from the US fleet/bombers.
I tend to agree with you though, that skipping the money islands and dashing straight for India would probably be better given the positioning of the US units. Japan could then use a bunch of that money gained to buy more fleet, and consolidate the combined fleet off FIC on J4 or J5 and at that point have a large enough flee to withstand and a US attack.
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@mikawagunichi Land units are so key to the game. India should be in retreat after a normal J1 attack as the massive air force should be scary enough to prevent the UK from wanting to risk half of its defensive strength. The IJN moves are also bizarre as the fleet is missing an aircraft carrier group and three transports that should be in the theater at the end of J2.
With such poor gameplay from the Axis, this is hardly convincing that the USA bomber build strategy will hold up during the first 4-5 rounds. I see this problem quite frequently for innovative plans that are good against bad players but don’t stand a chance against more seasoned opponents.
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If you read Andrew’s original write up, some units were moved back to SZ6 to protect the newly built units there. Could have done with less if a blocker was used but for some reason he didn’t want to do that, or at least prove it wasn’t mathematically necessary.
The OPs question was how to deal with a J1 attack, but there was no mention of what was going on in Europe. IME Germany is a much bigger threat to win the game than Japan and I personally like to use US money in the Atlantic early on, but that probably wouldn’t be a helpful response.
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@shadowhawk The map I posted was the standard cow J1 playbook opening results that are stickied in the Forum. The dice are reasonably typical of a normal game with some battles being above and some below the typical outcome.
It would be easier to discuss how to respond based on this “standard” end of J1 map instead of all of the permutations, especially those without a successful attack into Yunnan.
Everything in the entire game changes if that move fails and China becomes a monster with a large artillery-containing stack supported with additional Russian/UK Pacific pieces that can’t be addressed until much later in the game and at enormous economic consequences to Japan. No point turning this thread into what happens if Japan gets diced on a J1 or what to do against a poor Axis player who does a J1.
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