L20 PTV-first game! Surfer(L) vs. AndrewAAGamer(X)

[surfer]

TripleA Turn Summary: ANZAC round 12

TripleA Turn Summary for game: WW2 Path to Victory, version: 1.0

Game History

Round: 12

    Purchase Units - ANZAC
        ANZAC buy 1 bomber and 1 fighter; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - ANZAC

    Non Combat Move - ANZAC
        1 submarine moved from 63 Sea Zone to 58 Sea Zone
        1 submarine moved from 63 Sea Zone to 58 Sea Zone

    Place Units - ANZAC
        1 bomber and 1 fighter placed in New South Wales

    Turn Complete - ANZAC
        ANZAC collect 10 PUs; end with 10 PUs
        Objective ANZAC 3 Pacific Supply Lines: ANZAC met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 13 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Savegame

[surfer]

TripleA Turn Summary: French round 12

TripleA Turn Summary for game: WW2 Path to Victory, version: 1.0

Game History

Round: 12

    Purchase Units - ANZAC
        ANZAC buy 1 bomber and 1 fighter; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - ANZAC

    Non Combat Move - ANZAC
        1 submarine moved from 63 Sea Zone to 58 Sea Zone
        1 submarine moved from 63 Sea Zone to 58 Sea Zone

    Place Units - ANZAC
        1 bomber and 1 fighter placed in New South Wales

    Turn Complete - ANZAC
        ANZAC collect 10 PUs; end with 10 PUs
        Objective ANZAC 3 Pacific Supply Lines: ANZAC met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 13 PUs

    Combat Move - French
        1 destroyer moved from 77 Sea Zone to 40 Sea Zone

    Combat - French
        Battle in 40 Sea Zone
            British loiter and taunt; French attack with 1 destroyer
            Japanese defend with 1 submarine
                French roll dice for 1 destroyer in 40 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 1 submarine in 40 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                French roll dice for 1 destroyer in 40 Sea Zone, round 3 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 1 submarine in 40 Sea Zone, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                1 submarine owned by the Japanese lost in 40 Sea Zone
            French win, taking 40 Sea Zone from Neutral with 1 destroyer remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 submarine

    Non Combat Move - French

    Turn Complete - French

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

French : 0.33
Japanese : -0.33

Savegame

[AndrewAAGamer]

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: Germans round 13

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post for game: WW2 Path to Victory, version: 1.0

Game History

Round: 13

    Research Technology - Germans

    Purchase Units - Germans
        Germans buy 1 armour, 3 artilleries, 18 infantry and 1 mech_infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Germans
        1 armour moved from Rostov to Northern Caucasus
              Germans take Northern Caucasus from Russians
        1 armour moved from Northern Caucasus to Rostov
        1 armour moved from Rostov to Tambov
              Germans take Tambov from Russians
        1 armour moved from Tambov to Rostov
        1 armour moved from Yaroslavl to Gorky
              Germans take Gorky from Russians
        1 armour moved from Gorky to Yaroslavl

    Combat - Germans

    Non Combat Move - Germans
        6 infantry moved from Novgorod to Yaroslavl
        1 infantry moved from Novgorod to Yaroslavl
        2 artilleries and 8 infantry moved from Leningrad to Novgorod
        5 transports moved from 118 Sea Zone to 117 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Western Germany to 115 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 115 Sea Zone to 117 Sea Zone
        2 artilleries and 8 infantry moved from Germany to 117 Sea Zone
        3 artilleries, 9 infantry and 6 transports moved from 117 Sea Zone to 118 Sea Zone
        3 artilleries and 9 infantry moved from 118 Sea Zone to Leningrad
        1 infantry moved from France to Normandy Bordeaux
        1 aaGun and 4 infantry moved from Southern France to France
        1 aaGun moved from Holland Belgium to Western Germany
        1 aaGun moved from Normandy Bordeaux to France
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from France to Leningrad
        8 fighters and 4 tactical_bombers moved from 115 Sea Zone to Leningrad
        2 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Western Germany to Leningrad
        6 carriers, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 4 submarines and 1 transport moved from 115 Sea Zone to 116 Sea Zone
        1 submarine moved from 114 Sea Zone to 116 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from France to Western Germany
        1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Ukraine to Rostov
        2 infantry moved from Kursk to Rostov
        2 bombers moved from Rostov to Leningrad

    Place Units - Germans
        1 armour, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in Ukraine
        3 artilleries and 7 infantry placed in Germany
        10 infantry placed in Western Germany

    Turn Complete - Germans
        Germans collect 62 PUs; end with 62 PUs
        Trigger Germans 7 Atlantic Wall: Germans met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 65 PUs
        Trigger Germans 5 Swedish Iron Ore: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 70 PUs
        Objective Germans 2 Control Stalingrad Or Leningrad Or Russia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 75 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Savegame

[AndrewAAGamer]

So is it just me? I hear people say PtV favors the Allies however I think it favors the Axis. Expect for some poor rolling in China early on I feel you have played a good game and yet the Allies are stymied everywhere and Germany and Japan are both gaining on Russia. I see a Path to Victory for the Axis but not the Allies. (Pun intended)

[surfer]

No. I agree with you!! Especially the Japanese war. Sure, I messed up with the Chinese, but honestly I thought I could slow you down with the vast space of territory China had. But as you mentioned, after J3 you were making more than the US!! I had to ignore Germany most of the first 8 turns just to keep up with Japan, much less take it down a notch–I don’t see that I’ll ever be in a position to do that.

Of course, I made mistakes that a better player would avoid. China and recently the Russian Siberian army are good examples, but I feel that 2 aspects of the game are essentially forcing the game towards the Axis:
a) carriers and lesser extent airfields controlling much larger areas in PtV
b) mech inf = 5 IPCs!

A lot of talk has been said on carriers, and not much to add except this–the Axis start the game with many more aircraft than the Allies, and buffs like these are just that much more important in the early game when you are trying to build your forces.

The mech inf is probably the single biggest reason (besides the size of Russia) in my mind the Axis don’t just wipe the Allies. The added expense is just about always too much to justify, and forces each side to slow down their expansion. Since the Axis are doing most of that expansion, this disproportionately affects them. It is also probably a big contributor to why the Axis did not just overwhelm the Allies early on and why this game is still “competitive” this late in the game. Where competitive = Allies TUV > Axis TUV and production approximately equal. Of course the result of building more inf vice mechs is that the front lines are more static with the Allies having more difficulty because they have to transport their forces into these front lines. And need more than usual because the number of forces involved. Your German transports being a particular counter-example, but since I can’t build in the Atlantic essentially they become fast movers for your already superior numbers of land troops.

This actually isn’t much different than the normal games with the exception that I cannot see how to defeat Japan. The long supply lines for the Atlantic are counterbalanced by the spread of battlefields to attack. And they aren’t that long 2 moves to attack sometimes just 1. The Pacific is ridiculous. The interior lines of communication afford the Japanese the ability to hold everything. The added territory of China gives added $$s and Japan can just play a slow game and develop. That is not how the Pacific war has been fought previously. The last thing Japan wanted to do was build slowly because the Allies could build faster. They can still do so as the UK Pacific + ANZAC help the US. But in this game, it requires almost all of the US build since UK is minimally producing–just to match Japan, which of course means the Germans will roll. This is offset by the Russian horde so the game is not completely out of balance.

There is also this feature of the game: Since few land mobile units are produced and the land map is larger–Russian and China, the front lines are more separated from each other. No ability to move fighters from one front to help the other. Not sure how this changes the Axis / Allied balance, but I would think it helps the Axis since it is a large part of my previous Allied defense to use fighters as quick reaction forces. However, it does force the Axis to truly separate their units up without easy re-enforcement. Makes defending easier.

[surfer]

This got so long I’ll distill my comments to
a) There needs to be some adjustment to Japan’s ability to grow – perhaps the changes in CV scramble and defense will help. Maybe a 2 IPC increase in cost?
b) The only reason this game is not over is that no one has enough mobility to just push through.

Cheers,

[AndrewAAGamer]

In my only other game of PtV Trulpen is the Axis. Based on our game I decided to go 100% with the US into the pacific the entire game and still I am not able to do anything of consequence. At the moment the US is collecting more than Japan but that is temporary. In two Turns Japan will take India and that will swing things back into Japan’s favor. ANZAC is cowering for their own life so they are useless and only China is still helping the US. But once India is out of the game Japan will reallocate their forces to go after China taking them out. Maybe the US will be able to be effective by then but the point being only a 100% effort by the US has given me any hope in the pacific and frankly Russia and UK cannot beat Germany and Italy by themselves. I would much rather be the Axis than the Allies.

[surfer]

TripleA Turn Summary: Russians round 13

TripleA Turn Summary for game: WW2 Path to Victory, version: 1.0

Game History

Round: 13

    Purchase Units - Russians
        Russians buy 10 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Russians
        1 infantry moved from Sakha to Amur
              Russians take Amur from Japanese
        1 infantry moved from Russia to Gorky
              Russians take Gorky from Germans

    Combat - Russians

    Non Combat Move - Russians
        3 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Stalingrad to Russia
        2 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Stalingrad to Russia
        1 mech_infantry moved from Stalingrad to Russia
        2 aaGuns, 9 artilleries and 45 infantry moved from Stalingrad to Samara
        1 armour, 2 artilleries, 15 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys moved from Eastern Sinkiang to Western Sinkiang
        1 armour and 2 mech_infantrys moved from Western Sinkiang to Urals

    Place Units - Russians
        3 infantry placed in Urals
        7 infantry placed in Russia

    Turn Complete - Russians
        Russians collect 23 PUs; end with 23 PUs
        Trigger Russians 7 Great Patriotic War: Russians met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 26 PUs
        Trigger Russians 2 Persia Lend Lease Lane: Russians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 28 PUs
        Trigger Russians 3 Siberia Lend Lease Lane: Russians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 30 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Savegame

[surfer]

Yep, after 13 rds – an eternity in any previous game. The Russians are now dead. No one came to help and they are too far to help. But 13 rounds of mostly Pacific buys did not put the Japanese on notice or even make them uncomfortable.

the point is that yep 100% Pacific is possible for a long time, but Russia will go down with a whimper and no significant Allied forces are then present to stop the resulting German hordes. Nothing has been built to stop that due to Pacific focus.

[surfer]

An eternity without any foreign help, that is…

[AndrewAAGamer]

TripleA Turn Summary: Japanese round 13

TripleA Turn Summary for game: WW2 Path to Victory, version: 1.0

Game History

Round: 13

    Purchase Units - Japanese
        Japanese buy 2 carriers, 1 destroyer, 9 infantry, 1 submarine and 1 transport; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 6 SuicideAttackTokens; 

    Combat Move - Japanese
        1 artillery moved from Buryatia to Sakha
              Japanese take Sakha from Russians
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Buryatia to Amur
        2 artilleries moved from Buryatia to Yakut S.S.R.
              Japanese take Yakut S.S.R. from Russians
        6 fighters and 5 tactical_bombers moved from Northern Manchuria to Amur
        2 bombers moved from Northern Manchuria to Iwo Jima
        3 fighters moved from Japan to Iwo Jima
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Caroline Islands to 35 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 35 Sea Zone to 7 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 7 Sea Zone to Iwo Jima
        1 infantry moved from Northern Sinkiang to Urals
        2 armour, 2 fighters, 2 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Kansu to Urals
        1 submarine moved from 7 Sea Zone to 18 Sea Zone

    Combat - Japanese
        Battle in 18 Sea Zone
            Japanese attack with 1 submarine
            Americans defend with 1 transport
                1 transport owned by the Americans lost in 18 Sea Zone
                Japanese roll dice for 1 submarine in 18 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
            Japanese win with 1 submarine remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
            Casualties for Americans: 1 transport
        Battle in Iwo Jima
            Japanese attack with 1 artillery, 2 bombers, 3 fighters and 1 infantry
            Americans defend with 2 infantry
                Japanese roll dice for 1 artillery, 2 bombers, 3 fighters and 1 infantry in Iwo Jima, round 2 : 4/7 hits, 3.17 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 2 infantry in Iwo Jima, round 2 : 1/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Japanese and 2 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Iwo Jima
            Japanese win, taking Iwo Jima from Americans with 1 artillery, 2 bombers and 3 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry
            Casualties for Americans: 2 infantry
        Battle in Urals
            Japanese attack with 2 armour, 2 fighters, 1 infantry, 2 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber
            Russians defend with 1 armour, 1 factory_minor, 3 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys
                Japanese roll dice for 2 armour, 2 fighters, 1 infantry, 2 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber in Urals, round 2 : 4/8 hits, 3.50 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 1 armour, 3 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys in Urals, round 2 : 1/6 hits, 2.33 expected hits
                1 mech_infantry owned by the Russians, 1 infantry owned by the Japanese and 3 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Urals
                Japanese roll dice for 2 armour, 2 fighters, 2 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber in Urals, round 3 : 2/7 hits, 3.33 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 1 armour and 1 mech_infantry in Urals, round 3 : 1/2 hits, 1.00 expected hits
                1 mech_infantry owned by the Russians, 1 mech_infantry owned by the Japanese and 1 armour owned by the Russians lost in Urals
            Japanese win, taking Urals from Russians with 2 armour, 2 fighters, 1 mech_infantry and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 17
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
            Casualties for Russians: 1 armour, 3 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys
        Battle in Amur
            Japanese attack with 1 artillery, 6 fighters, 1 infantry and 5 tactical_bombers
            Russians defend with 1 infantry
                Japanese roll dice for 1 artillery, 6 fighters, 1 infantry and 5 tactical_bombers in Amur, round 2 : 7/13 hits, 7.00 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 1 infantry in Amur, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Amur
            Japanese win, taking Amur from Russians with 1 artillery, 6 fighters, 1 infantry and 5 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
        Trigger Japanese Destroy Factories Urals: has removed 1 factory_minor owned by Japanese in Urals

    Non Combat Move - Japanese
        Trigger Urals Has Fallen to Japanese Switch: Setting switch to false for conditionAttachment_Russian_Urals_Factory_May_Be_Destroyed_Japanese attached to Japanese
        2 aaGuns moved from Buryatia to Yakut S.S.R.
        6 fighters and 5 tactical_bombers moved from Amur to Japan
        3 fighters moved from Iwo Jima to 35 Sea Zone
        2 bombers moved from Iwo Jima to Japan
        1 infantry moved from Kwangsi to French Indo China
        1 infantry moved from Yunnan to French Indo China
        1 infantry moved from Kweichow to Yunnan
        1 infantry moved from Hunan to Kweichow
        1 infantry moved from Kwangtung to Kwangsi
        1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Kwangtung to French Indo China
        1 infantry moved from Kiangsi to Hunan
        1 infantry moved from Kansu to Northern Sinkiang
        1 infantry moved from Tsinghai to Kansu
        2 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Urals to Kansu
        1 infantry moved from Hopei to Tsinghai
        1 infantry moved from Inner Mongolia to Kansu
        1 infantry moved from Honan to Inner Mongolia
        1 infantry moved from Anhwe to Honan
        1 infantry moved from Kiangsi to Hopei
        1 infantry moved from Kiangsu to Anhwe
        1 infantry moved from Kiangsu to Kiangsi
        1 infantry moved from Kiangsu to Kiangsi
        1 transport moved from 35 Sea Zone to 46 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from Dutch New Guinea to 46 Sea Zone
        1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 46 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from 35 Sea Zone to Caroline Islands

    Place Units - Japanese
        3 infantry placed in French Indo China
        3 infantry placed in Kwangtung
        3 infantry placed in Kiangsu
        1 destroyer and 1 submarine placed in 7 Sea Zone
        2 carriers and 1 transport placed in 6 Sea Zone

    Turn Complete - Japanese
        Japanese collect 73 PUs; end with 73 PUs
        Objective Japanese 6 Home Islands: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 76 PUs
        Objective Japanese 4 Control Dutch East Indies: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 81 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans : 0.33
Russians : -1.67
Japanese : -0.33

Savegame

[AndrewAAGamer]

I think a couple of territory adjustments have made a big difference. First the US can no longer threaten Korea from Hawaii. That was always a key weakness of Japan. The Japanese cannot let the US take Korea and hold it because then they build a minor IC there and that is big trouble for Japan. That forced the Japanese to leave at least some ground forces in or around Korea to protect it. Now that is not necessary because the US cannot get there in one Turn and if they move against it the Japanese navy from Caroline or Philippines just moves north to counter it. Secondly by splitting the Sea of Japan into two sea zones even with a large US naval presence in Hawaii the Japanese are still able to build naval units on the backside of Japan. That allows them to try and maintain naval parity with the US without having to use mainland IC slots to do it allowing them to bring more forces onto the mainland than before and that has always been Japan’s biggest weakness; land forces. My gosh look at how many Jap ground troops I have in this game!!!

It has always been easier to defend at sea than attack and the new carrier rules just amplify that. WIth the additional Chinese territory it is actually a benefit to Japan because it allows them to gain more money than before. With that additional money they have as much as the US which means the US cannot gain fleet superiority. Without fleet superiority it is impossible to do anything worthwhile with a navy.

I am not sure I can beat Trulpen in the pacific even with a 100% US investment and that is like… wow.

[surfer]

Yep. I can’t do anything in the Pacific. The US can’t even build a fleet since it cannot get out from W. Coast with your fleet sitting in Carolines- The other side of Carolines. Not attackable, and completely dominating the Central Pacific.

[AndrewAAGamer]

I agree 100%. Unless the US has a superior fleet than Japan does there is nothing the US can do in the pacific. Which means all Japan has to do is maintain parity at sea while they push inland against China, India and Russia. In our game it will not be long before Japan is collecting MORE than the US. And Japan has not even taken India and they have more money!!!

[WindowWasher]

@regularkid

[regularkid]

@surfer hey dudes. Great game. I’ve been following your game and this conversation with interest, particularly regarding the issue of balance. I noticed that you guys are playing version 1.0 of the map, rather than the current version 4.0… Version 4.0 some substantive changes impacting the situation in the Pacific, including:

1. The sea zones around Korea have been redrawn so that it can’t be contested by Japan from Malaya and elsewhere;

2. Carrier defense has been reduced to 1, and carrier scramble now requires the presence of a defending surface warship in the target sea zone (player enforced);

3. A U.S. marine has been added to Hawaii at the start of the game.

To download this update, simply open the “Download Maps” screen, click on “Good Quality” and then click on the “Update” tab. Look forward to hearing your thoughts with the new changes.

[surfer]

@regularkid Good points. But for our game only the carrier scramble rule would have made any difference

1. The allies were never in a position to reach Malaya without being slaughtered so reaching Korea from there is a non-factor
2. All possible naval battles were going to be (at best) even numbers of CVs so reducing to 1 from 2 would make the defender less favored, but still favored. So no one would have attacked.

The map changes that completely change the Pacific in my mind are
a) the interior SZ 6 that allows Japan to build even with superior forces in Hawaii. (See @AndrewAAGamer’s comment above)
b) The split of the SZ around the Carolines. Japan can use the mobility bonus of the port without being in range of US forces in Hawaii. Thus can’t be chased off. And yet from there they can control SZ 27 (off Hawaii) and SZ31 (off Johnson Island). The point here is that now the US can’t get any forces into the game without consolidating all forces in Hawaii (or Johnson Island). You can’t hang out in Queensland and shuck naval forces to SZ31 which typically is a free space.
Perhaps move boundary between SZ23 &24 to allow all of Carolines to be attacked.

[surfer]

I should amend the comment “the only map changes…” because the map is very different. And requires many adaptations of a typical strategy.
The placement of islands into SZ boundaries is a very dynamic change in the game and I really like it!
The two points above are just some observations of how the topology of the map affects game play in a way the supports J.

[regularkid]

@surfer

You have accurately assessed some of Japan’s advantages in PTV over Global: the availability of a safe harbor in sz 6 for construction of new ships, and the splitting of the Caroline seazone making it more difficult to Hold as Allies are two major changes in favor of Japan.

That being said, I don’t think I was clear about the significance of the Korea Seazone: it was redrawn to prevent Japan from contesting Korea from Malaya and elsewhere, in the event of Russian or American capture. Below is an image of the new Seazone configuration in Version 4.0. In the prior Map, Japan did not have to get out of position to deadzone Korea. Now it does.

Also, if I understand your post correctly, you suggest that the US fleet at Hawaii (sz 27) can’t hit the Japanese fleet at Caroline (sz 35), but that Japan can hit Hawaii. This is not the case. Hawaii can only be reached from sz 34, which is in range of any ships in Hawaii (sz 27).

I think the most efficient way to counter Japan is to apply pressure on multiple fronts. The Allies are given the means to do so with a boosted Russian economy, Siberian factory, and buffed China. I think it would be interesting to hear your thoughts after playing version 4.0. If you are down for a game, lemme know!

[AndrewAAGamer]

@regularkid

On our map SZ6 does completely surround Korea. I don’t think it had the US Marine though.