German "factory crush" strategy with little help from Mini-Me ( Italy)

[Imperious Leader]

The Soviets are screwed.

They have 3 factories to defend and previously they just had 2. Additionally, Moscow is rated at 6 IPC so that’s all they can place, so by default they must hold 2 factories to even place units ( for the most part).

in the 41 Germany plays first and they have 31 IPC and build 6 tanks.

Germany takes out the DD in SZ6. the two SS can either go after this or they can go after the CA and DD in SZ12 with 1 fighter, or even 2 planes.

They use all the rest of the pieces to wipe out Soviets. The Italians ( now called Mini-me) land in Ukraine and SB with 2 cruisers.

The Germans place all the tanks in the central position and control the territories that link both the Karellia and Caucasus factories. This is the important point for stage 2. The Soviets have like nothing but a tank and fighter to fight back and the infantry just fade easily and cant fight tanks. The Soviets must try to protect both of these factories and fight back, but they cant be strong in every sector at the same time.

ON turn 2 Germany is at like 37-38 and builds 6 tanks and rest Infantry/art combination. The transport is shucking 2 land units from france and now shucks infantry from Norway or Germany.

The Germans take Karelia with planes and a what they have nearby. The tanks drive to either support or finish off Soviets in front of Moscow.

Now the German tanks are still in one big spot (east Poland ) and can either hit Moscow or Caucasus. The Soviets have to hit with a large stack to push them back out of East Ukraine and Karelia, but this leaves Caucasus open and weak. The Panzers take Caucasus and Japan helps out by having 3-5 fighters in FIC which is 4 spaces away.

Mini Me takes Ukraine on turn 1, then lands in Caucasus. In one game they just hit it alone and weakened it but were repulsed. After Caucasus was lost Italy brought up stuff and made it impossible to take.

Mimi Me did nothing but perform like a circus animal doing tricks for Germany. It was disgusting to say the least. I was Japan and came up with the idea from fighters in FIC, remembering the trick from Milton Bradley days.

The British have to land in the Soviet Union and forget france. They did take Karelia back, but the German 6 tanks retook it easily with a few planes.

Now the Soviets have 1 factory and can place only 6, so they are forced to buy tanks so rather than build 8 units, they build 6 units but better quality…its not working… Moscow falls by turn 4.

Another problem is UK fighters don’t reach Moscow in one turn. It takes 2 turns and the Germans killed the RAF as it landed and the Soviets had to protect, but with 15+ tanks forget it. its gone.

Remember the UK player who is left with her navy intact…does not buy a carrier because its BB survived. That was a big mistake to assume it didn’t need a CV. If it had it its fighters can make it to Moscow if the Baltic is cleared and the carrier is supporting landings.

So Germany must go for broke on this and just stick with tanks and remember the central position is crucial and crucial that you keep open the links to the 2 factories, take one down, then the other, and Italy and Japan must support you, and you will win.

Japan does not need to attack the Soviets from the other side, but they do need to come into China.

[JohnBarbarossa]

@Imperious:

Another problem is UK fighters don’t reach Moscow in one turn. It takes 2 turns and the Germans killed the RAF as it landed and the Soviets had to protect, but with 15+ tanks forget it. its gone.

What game are you playing? It is 4 spaces from UK to Moscow.

[Imperious Leader]

WOW! i didn’t see going from the north. Well i wasn’t playing UK ( i was Japan)  LOL!

oh well. It didn’t matter at that point because Germany retook both factories, leaving the Soviets 12 IPC short ( 16 IPC to play with after Japan took 2 as well). The 5 units or so could not fend off 6 tanks a turn and all of the German air units.

Germany just takes and holds East Poland, East Ukraine, Ukraine, and Baltic states and places her tanks in East Poland and can take or threaten all 3 Soviet factories. This forces the Soviets to divide her force, then Germany takes one factory, then the other. When she takes Caucasus the 4-5 Japanese planes land and seal the fate on Moscow. Game over.

[bugoo]

A simple counter/stall against this would be for UK to land in poland breaking up your armor trains. This should be doable easily by UK 2 with there turn 1 income (say build 1 trans 2 cruiser). Also, as early as US 2 Italy should be getting 1 bombing run a turn on it from them, not to mention the UK bomber if it survives. Lastly, I believe Italy ignoring the middle east will result in them being relegated to repairing there IC more often than building any units. Even if the Italian fleet moves north the UK should be able to sink it with air purchased on UK 2.

[Imperious Leader]

ok uk 2 clearing the Baltic would only bring a few infantry to Poland, but the tanks are moving into east Poland from Germany. Clearing the Baltic is 1 turn ( i assume you would want to have about 3 shore shots) so your going in with just infantry, unless uk buys a carrier. The mistake UK did was land her planes on a territory in reach of east Poland after an invasion and the Soviets cant protect it.

SO uk needs a carrier and a couple of ships for support depending on how many ships are sunk by Germany on round one.

I don’t think UK can get an effective wall up before UK3 because of the investment of these naval builds.

So i would say they could barely take poland in round 2, but obviously the Germans just kick them out and move most of her tanks in NCM right thru into east poland anyway, rendering uk’s invasion useless.

The Germans have two trys to get the tanks to east poland.

UK needs to not do this and land and keep retaking karelia instead IMO from baltic, but the Germans push this away AND take Caucasus which the uk player can do nothing about.

[Imperious Leader]

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=1719431d339c3594dd8b33b5aa27078d

This map explains what im talking about in pictures. see for yourself what happens.

[HolKann]

How about making Len a dead zone, grabbing Northern Europe, giving up Ind, overpowering the Italian Navy, and stacking inf in Cau?

For instance:
R1: purchases: 5 inf 3 arm, combat: 5 inf 1 rtl Len -> Swe (+maybe sub exchange) non-combat: 1 inf Bel -> Arc, 3 inf 1 rtl Mos -> Arc, 2 inf Kaz -> Cau, 2 inf Nov -> Mos, rest inf -> west. reinforcements: 3 arm -> Mos, 1 inf -> Len, 4 inf -> Cau.

UK1: purchases: 1 AC, 2 DD, 1 trn, 2 inf combat: invade France with 1 arm 1 inf (gain 6IPC+10 NO), kill with air rest of German fleet non-combat: air lands in Swe, 1 ftr from Egy -> CHA (where the AC+DD’s+trn will be build. The Eus ftr will join too), Middle East pulls back to Per (to help defend Cau in round 2)

Result:
Short term: 16 Russians ready to take back what 10 Germans can take in Len at G2, back-up of 4 British land + 4 British air on UK2 in Len to defend vs G3, 10 inf in Cau defending the first wave of German attackers, 7 British land units to defend vs the wave of Italian at Cau, a very strong Brit which will make 40+ IPC’s the next 2/3 turns (without NO’s calculated in)

Long term: Nwy and Swe will be allied forever (no German fleet), the British fleet is building up to kill the Italian navy, while also keeping control of Northern Europe (cheap DD’s to defend against ftrs, plus a few subs for hits and punch, et voila, arrivederci Mussolini, add some trns + inf and Len is Allied forever). Loss of Africa trying to counter by killing Italian fleet, from that moment, Cau is much safer and Africa ready to reclaim :)

Of course, Ind is lost, Chi will have a very hard time, and Jpn will grow like hell (though it will take longer than in Revised)… But that’s for the Americans to clean up 8)

I’m just trying to say: If USSR and UK really want, they can defend both Len and Cau against G2+I2, and probably later too, because after the 5 arm purchase, Ger will lack enough infantry on mid-term, giving some breathing room for Moskva till the Siberian forces arrive.

What do you think, IL?

Edit: an alternative to the 2 DD’s are 1 AC, but that leaves Swe a bit more vulnerable, whilst having to keep more ftrs dedicated to fleet service instead of defending Len. The good part is the fleet is completely safe from German Luftwaffe, whilst with 2 DD’s it’s “quite safe”.

[Imperious Leader]

For instance:
R1: purchases: 5 inf 3 arm, combat: 5 inf 1 rtl Len -> Swe (+maybe sub exchange) non-combat: 1 inf Bel -> Arc, 3 inf 1 rtl Mos -> Arc, 2 inf Kaz -> Cau, 2 inf Nov -> Mos, rest inf -> west. reinforcements: 3 arm -> Mos, 1 inf -> Len, 4 inf -> Cau.

UK1: purchases: 1 AC, 2 DD, 1 trn, 2 inf combat: invade France with 1 arm 1 inf (gain 6IPC+10 NO), kill with air rest of German fleet non-combat: air lands in Swe, 1 ftr from Egy -> CHA (where the AC+DD’s+trn will be build. The Eus ftr will join too), Middle East pulls back to Per (to help defend Cau in round 2)

Result:
Short term: 15 Russians ready to take back what 10 Germans can take in Len at G2, back-up of 4 British land + 4 British air on UK2 in Len to defend vs G3, 10 inf in Cau defending the first wave of German attackers, 7 British land units to defend vs the wave of Italian at Cau, a very strong Brit which will make 40+ IPC’s the next 2/3 turns (without NO’s calculated in)

Caucasus has 6 infantry defending. Its the new weak point. Ill take it with the tanks and stuff in East Poland and Ukraine, plus also take back Karelia but light and for good measure open either Belorussian and/or East Ukraine, so I can then go to Moscow one of 2 ways, and latter have a link to attack Moscow from Caucasus, which forces your Karelia stack to move to Moscow and you have no way to take Caucasus back as Japan lands 3-4 planes from FIC, with Italy scraps top hold up in Caucasus. Your plan is just trading one factory for the other by trying to defend all three. UK cant retake Caucasus and now soon India can even be taken by Germany.

If your stack moves to Moscow, the Germans builds can now take Karelia.

I think of it like a mother bear trying to protect 2 cubs a mile away…it cant cover both of them at the same time…one must die by the wolf. If it tried to protect them by staying in the middle the wolf can take both. UK ( played by little orphan annie is too weak to fight a wolf until much latter.

Long term: Nwy and Swe will be allied forever (no German fleet), the British fleet is building up to kill the Italian navy, while also keeping control of Northern Europe (cheap DD’s to defend against ftrs, plus a few subs for hits and punch, et voila, arrivederci Mussolini, add some trns + inf and Len is Allied forever). Loss of Africa trying to counter by killing Italian fleet, from that moment, Cau is much safer and Africa ready to reclaim Smiley

Of course, Ind is lost, Chi will have a very hard time, and Jpn will grow like hell (though it will take longer than in Revised)… But that’s for the Americans to clean up Cool

I’m just trying to say: If USSR and UK really want, they can defend both Len and Cau against G2+I2, and probably later too, because after the 5 arm purchase, Ger will lack enough infantry on mid-term, giving some breathing room for Moskva till the Siberian forces arrive.

What do you think, IL?

Edit: an alternative to the 2 DD’s are 1 AC, but that leaves Swe a bit more vulnerable, whilst having to keep more ftrs dedicated to fleet service instead of defending Len. The good part is the fleet is completely safe from German Luftwaffe, whilst with 2 DD’s it’s “quite safe”.

Yes Germany builds a carrier and cruiser if they want a longer game, but the attacks should be the same except for the Baltic fleet stays in 41 ( less clear in 42)

I prefer the cruiser so i got a SB each turn for 4 extra IPC and better defense.

Germany needs the cruiser for both offensive and defensive. For Germany you can get away with a CV build on turn 1, followed by a CA build on the turn where UK builds or moves fleets in range of Baltic, or buys too many air units… so consider it the German fleet installment plan.

[Driel310]

There is 10 inf in Cauc not 6, because you also start with 4 inf which don’t move.

I don’t see how much you can bring with Germany, but I seriously doubt you have good odds against those 10 on G2.  :wink:

[HolKann]

@Imperious:

Caucasus has 6 infantry defending. Its the new weak point. Ill take it with the tanks and stuff in East Poland and Ukraine, plus also take back Karelia but light and for good measure open either Belorussian and/or East Ukraine, so I can then go to Moscow one of 2 ways, and latter have a link to attack Moscow from Caucasus, which forces your Karelia stack to move to Moscow and you have no way to take Caucasus back as Japan lands 3-4 planes from FIC, with Italy scraps top hold up in Caucasus. Your plan is just trading one factory for the other by trying to defend all three. UK cant retake Caucasus and now soon India can even be taken by Germany.

No, it has 10 defending (4 from start who didn’t move, 2 from Kazakhstan, 4 build there) If needed, add the British ftr from Egy, and place 1 ftr less in Swe. Next turn 7 Brits+4 inf are coming to Cau (if needed). The 5 extra arm from Ger won’t hurt it :)

The plan to add Mos as a third by claiming Euk and Bel is interesting, but I think that with 10 extra inf on R2, Mos is safe, even if Bel and Euk aren’t reconquered. In the worst case, abandon Kar alltogether at R2, conquer Nwy with Swe armies, and prepare the British to strike back (buy 7 land units + 3 trns, + 4 units from UK2 landing in Swe.

If your stack moves to Moscow, the Germans builds can now take Karelia.

I think of it like a mother bear trying to protect 2 cubs a mile away…it cant cover both of them at the same time…one must die by the wolf. If it tried to protect them by staying in the middle the wolf can take both. UK ( played by little orphan annie is too weak to fight a wolf until much latter.

UK is income-wise stronger than Germany! But it is true the tank-pivot in Epl is very annoying to say the least. But once you conquer Kar, Cau is safe (the arms are out of their pivot-position), and the British are coming from Swe! The wolf can only take one cub, the other cub is safe with it’s mother then. And UK/father bear will be very angry with the wolf :D Remember that UK can bring on 8 units each turn to Kar, whilst it’s a long way for Ger to go to Kar.

However, I do think this is the best option for Ger, and with good play, both players will get an enjoyable game out of this strat. It will make the game more dynamic then the territory-trading we saw in Revised, whilst still giving both parties a chance to win.

Yes Germany builds a carrier and cruiser if they want a longer game, but the attacks should be the same except for the Baltic fleet stays in 41 ( less clear in 42)

I prefer the cruiser so i got a SB each turn for 4 extra IPC and better defense.

Germany needs the cruiser for both offensive and defensive. For Germany you can get away with a CV build on turn 1, followed by a CA build on the turn where UK builds or moves fleets in range of Baltic, or buys too many air units… so consider it the German fleet installment plan.

So 1 AC G1? That’s 3 arm less in Epl! Russians, rejoice! + most probably the ftr and DD kill eachother, which is another ftr gone… Add to that that 2 ftr have to go to Morocco, 1 ftr + bmr to Nwy (they haven’t got enough moves left to get to Bal). => the Baltic is underdefended: 2 ftr 1 bmr vs 1 AC 1 Cru 1 trn 1 sub (if lucky 1 ftr)…
You will need another DD or Cru (which is almost 90% of G1 purchases, so Mos will be safer). But then UK simply goes for a massive UK1 navy build-up, whit 2 AC, 2 subs, and total war upon the baltic fleet  :evil:

I don’t think Ger can go navy, except for a sub armada (which leaves no room for coastal BB’s or transports). Anyhow, if it does, then Russia will have much less to worry about…

[Imperious Leader]

UK is income-wise stronger than Germany!

only on turn 1, by Their turn 2, they lose 10-15 IPC thanks to Japan. leaving them at 28-33

SWE= sweden…which is not possible.

I guess if you hole up in Caucasus, i take Karelia with force to preclude any counter and reposition the tanks so they can strike at either Moscow or Caucasus…when you run back to Moscow to cover the Karelia threat. I either wait one turn and take all the other stuff, or take Caucasus.

This is a problem mostly about how the map is drawn than the pieces. remember 7 threes ( tanks) each turn require the Soviets to build a similar number of defensive units…but it cant do this at 24 IPC-8 infantry… each turn i gain 5 attack points in strength over you and with karelia is my hands because you left it a dead zone, UK will not try to come up to Archangel or they die. Also, we have not added in Italy which is bringing in 4 inf ( plus her 2 tanks and fighter and 3 shore shots) to follow up a German success.

[bugoo]

Ok I have a new idea for how to (possibly) slow this tactic down.

UK1 Build 3 bomb (36) 1 trans (or other unit or save).

UK2 Destroy med fleet with 4 bomb, and 1 fig, landing in Egypt or Caucasus. Have Egypt forces push forward.

With any luck if UK builds up some extra fleet on UK2 the US may be able to drop 1 trans in France on there second turn, followed by major invasions UK3/US3.  I’d probably go for an AC or two if needed(using US fighters if you lost any) plus a cruiser or two if the funds are available.

Also, with the remaining bombers, plus the US bombers you can reduce Italy to one inf per turn and begin picking on Germany.

At some point, probably turn 5 you should take Italy from France unless Germany begins coming after you, and even then you should be able to overpower Germany at some point.

[Imperious Leader]

If you dont buy a fleet on UK1 that transport is alone with 1 DD for protection. That means to dont even get to land anywhere till turn 3 and if you do your fleet is sunk by German fighters.

I may also take Egypt on G2, which deprives you of killing potentially the Italian fleet. I would do it if i saw you build the planes and have both Italy and Germany take both spots ( Egypt and jordan)

BY turn UK 3 you are making your first attacks to support the Soviets and they are strong in air support, but weak in total land units because of the builds going to air. I think you will bomb Italy, but lose the plot in Soviet Union. The race to kill Moscow is unmolested by uk land invasions.

I do agree that UK should built more bombers, but first the fleet needs to be established. fleet then air force other wise you cant use the few naval units you got and your not using all the units correctly. You have to find jobs for all your units so they do something everyturn, but your creating a new job position and not supporting your starting or leftover units.

[bugoo]

Actually I would be able to land in France on UK2 as my fleet would be deployed at the end of my turn.

Secondly I could use the planes for bombing runs, keep them in the UK, and just wait for you to hit the black sea to sink the fleet. (moving the fig to turkey with the retreating India forces or into Russia).

Lastly, the US could land on turn 1 if they wanted to bringing 1 inf, 1 art, 1 bomb on Algeria vs 1 inf and 1 - 2 figs.  IF the US wins there is no German air within range to strike back (granted just taking down 2 figs is a victory in its own as it allows the UK to build a much smaller fleet), now that I think about it UK could hit there turn 1 as well with 1 inf, 1 arm, 1 fig and 1 bomb.  Granted, you could leave more units in Algeria, but that would allow the UK to crush Libya on turn 1, which would not be a big deal other than if the Italians counter the fleet does not move and the UK air sends it to the bottom of the sea on the next turn since SZ 15 is the only safe location for the fleet without Egypt and Trans-Jordan as landing sites.

I personally feel that it is very dangerous for the Germans not to take Egypt on turn 1 as any loss in that area puts Italy in a very bad position which the allies can easily do with UK using a 3 bomber turn 1 build, but hey I’m just bored waiting to play this version on Triple A.  :-D

[Imperious Leader]

Actually I would be able to land in France on UK2 as my fleet would be deployed at the end of my turn.

Yes you could that would be brushed aside from Italian troops. ON UK 1 you want to buy those bombers. thats your UK 1 build. ON UK two you start with the fleet…but you only got 1 transport left from G1 naval attacks. I understand your builds go in the same SZ as the invasion…thats fine, but 2 land units is hardly a bother. We are just trading 6 IPC back and forth while Moscow is dying. I am keeping UK from helping the Soviets directly, because you choose to buy lots of bombers rather than transports and infantry on UK 1.

Secondly I could use the planes for bombing runs, keep them in the UK, and just wait for you to hit the black sea to sink the fleet. (moving the fig to turkey with the retreating India forces or into Russia).

I dont care if my fleet dies…this is a race to Moscow … on land. my tanks are not effected by your bombers sinking my fleet, while getting chewed up because you didn’t send any naval for soakers…that takes UK out for a turn while my Panzer rollers and killing Soviet infantry. Also you cant move into Turkey you cant even fly over it.

Thats the whole point of buying just tanks because i give up a proper attack for a long game… i want a short game and i am prepared to sac my fleets…for you to be bothered by it, while Panzers kill.

Lastly, the US could land on turn 1 if they wanted to bringing 1 inf, 1 art, 1 bomb on Algeria vs 1 inf and 1 - 2 figs.  IF the US wins there is no German air within range to strike back (granted just taking down 2 figs is a victory in its own as it allows the UK to build a much smaller fleet), now that I think about it UK could hit there turn 1 as well with 1 inf, 1 arm, 1 fig and 1 bomb.  Granted, you could leave more units in Algeria, but that would allow the UK to crush Libya on turn 1, which would not be a big deal other than if the Italians counter the fleet does not move and the UK air sends it to the bottom of the sea on the next turn since SZ 15 is the only safe location for the fleet without Egypt and Trans-Jordan as landing sites.

You cant take Morocco on turn 1. I got 2 fighters and 2 land units in it. look at my 1941 strategy map. I got Norway covered as well with similar placements. USA can just build some bombers and naval and build up.

I personally feel that it is very dangerous for the Germans not to take Egypt on turn 1 as any loss in that area puts Italy in a very bad position which the allies can easily do with UK using a 3 bomber turn 1 build, but hey I’m just bored waiting to play this version on Triple A.  grin

AS i said if i saw your UK bombers being placed…on G2 i would consider taking egypt. I don’t think Germany should take EGY on G1, but only on turn 2, because Germany needs its planes to sink UK naval assets on G1.

Look at the 41 strategy map, adjust for the lost UK and Soviet units, and make those builds for UK and THEN see what Germany can do. I suspect you will immediately find a solution for your allied counters. You will also see the trouble the Soviets are facing in 41. Even if you do all you say you have not stopped the germans in Russia… your going after the sideshows and not facing the problem directly IMO.

[Jennifer]

I don’t think Germany should take Egypt at all.  That’s a plum target for Italy.  You KNOW England’s buggering out of there ASAP if they are not killed by Germany to avoid those 3 Shore Shots (and I like to build a 4th for Italy on round 1 as well).

I do like reinforcing Morrocco.  You have that useless transport already positioned there, may as well!  It annoys England and America and protects Italy’s flanks a bit.

[bugoo]

I understand what you are saying and I could be mistaken, I just feel that the threat in the south is greatly reduced by sinking the med fleet allowing the Soviets to focus on the northern front to stall once you remove the threat of landings.  I could be mistaken.

[Imperious Leader]

If Italy built a 2 DD on I2 or I1 if playing with the NO’s…do you think uk can rid her fleet on UK3?

It would be 2 cruisers 1 Battleship, 2 destroyers against 3 bombers, 1-2 fighters?

14 vs. 15-18 and 6 hits vs. 5. that’s pretty close.

If i saw UK building bombers, id start 1 DD a turn and take Jordan on I1 and Egypt on I2

[Bardoly]

@Cmdr:

I don’t think Germany should take Egypt at all.  That’s a plum target for Italy.  You KNOW England’s buggering out of there ASAP if they are not killed by Germany to avoid those 3 Shore Shots (and I like to build a 4th for Italy on round 1 as well).

Italy only has 10 IPCs on turn 1, because you don’t collect the NO bonus until end of turn, so no 4th Shore Shot on turn 1.

I do like reinforcing Morrocco.  You have that useless transport already positioned there, may as well!  It annoys England and America and protects Italy’s flanks a bit.

I feel that taking Gibralter is more important than reinforcing Morocco-Algeria if Germany isn’t going after Egypt, because this instantly takes 5 IPCs of NO bonus away from UK, and it takes a potential landing zone awy from the Allies.

[Bardoly]

@Imperious:

If Italy built a 2 DD on I2 or I1 if playing with the NO’s…do you think uk can rid her fleet on UK3?

It would be 2 cruisers 1 Battleship, 2 destroyers against 3 bombers, 1-2 fighters?

14 vs. 15-18 and 6 hits vs. 5. that’s pretty close.

If i saw UK building bombers, id start 1 DD a turn and take Jordan on I1 and Egypt on I2

Where are you getting the IPCs from?  If UK builds 3 Bombers on UK1, then the only thing Italy can do with his 10 IPCs is build a DD and leave his fleet in SZ#14 to keep it together, which means that Italy will not be taking either Egypt or Trans-Jordan.

Also, you said earlier, that if you saw UK build 3 Bombers on UK1, that you would want to take both Egypt and Trans-Jordan to nullify the landing zone, but that still leaves Caucaus available.

I agree that the longer UK waits, of course, the bigger Italy’s navy can get, but one must remember that for every ship Italy buys, he has fewer and fewer land units to use.