Yeah, I’ve read that and I believe it. I think until 1943 or 1944 the Americans had more ground units in the Pacific?
Yeah, the US built a ton of ships. For some reason the US never gets to seemingly similar numbers in the game.
We need an allied playbook.
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The air is probably better used in stacking Burma if there’s been a J1 DOW. Although some may say that the J3 Calcutta crush is a waste of time and the allies should just allow it. I’m not convinced of that one.
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The SZ98 cruiser normally either does Taranto or participates in a SZ92 stack. The SZ39 one has more latitude.
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dessertfox asked me for a taranto version of my opener. this was a no scramble? would you have scrambled?
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@simon33 the advantage in this game is with the attacker. I’m trying to make even my defenses into attacks with methods like fade and strike, air used in ground support, staying close to the coast. I want my planes to kill every turn, not sit in a huddle.
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I might consider scrambling against that but probably wouldn’t. The math shows up as each fighter scrambling gives you good odds to take out a UK fighter, but only 1. (there should also be a German fighter there to make it an even 3).
Also, your G1 makes it so UK can take W. Germany on their turn. Busting that into a mIC would be a nice win for the Allies.
London with zero fighters and a German navy afloat is worrying - even with the U.S. going hard to the Atlantic, I might consider Sea Lion, but mostly it means Japan will go hog wild in the Pacific.[link text]
Your Japan opener is a bit off. Japan needs to hit Yunnan J1 no matter what. I’ve attached a version where I also did the slightly riskier attack including Hunan, but the safer choice is to send that inf and planes to Kwangtung.
triplea_33316_jap1 (1).tsvg -
I don’t get the Yunnan thing. As China and/or the English I’m going to whack that every time and succeed. Is it bloodletting?
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@crockett36 It blocks China from buying artillery. Very useful down the road to limit their counter attacks.
Its also the largest group of Chinese troops you can hit and you can do it without any real risk of losing.
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@crockett36 said in We need an allied playbook.:
I don’t get the Yunnan thing. As China and/or the English I’m going to whack that every time and succeed. Is it bloodletting?
Without significant bid units, it’s absolutely worth hitting. You could strip an inf (in a J1 scenario) or the artillery (J2+ scenario) if you’re concerned about losing too many ground units. Most players wouldn’t though because the desire to take the territory is so high. Once you take the territory, China needs to move units in to retake it, normally at least 2. You can then hit these units J2 in most games. If you don’t take the territory, China can evacuate and also buy artillery, which will totally be able to hit anything moving in J2. And collect the NO.
I don’t get why would even think about not attacking Yunnan without a significant stack there?
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I go back and forth on the Yunnan question. For all the reasons you point out, @simon33, I like to hit Yunnan J1 when I can…but I also consider it crucial to clear Yunnan on J2, and I find that if I’m declaring war on J1, I often burn through all of my land units and wind up with nothing to hit Yunnan with on J2 except for the 2 infantry that start in Siam. The Kwangsi infantry go fight and die in Yunnan or Hunan, the Kiangsi infantry are stuck in Hong Kong even if they survive, and my 3 transports are busy with Borneo (1x) and Philippines (2x).
So if China stacks Yunnan with, e.g., 8 infantry and a fighter on China 1, plus 5-6 units from the UK, then even with no bid, I don’t necessarily feel comfortable attacking that stack with only 2 infantry and air power. Sometimes I will, if the J1 attacks went well and the USA seems busy, but if I lost a plane killing the UK BB and the USA is going KJF, I don’t necessarily have 3-4 planes to spare to kill Yunnan on J2.
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It isn’t always possible to retake it J2.
Consider the following scenario: J1 DOW, successful Yunnan attack. Yunnan retaken C1 with no defensive hits. 2inf from Siam now in FIC but hit with the 3 UK planes. 2 planes lost but both troops gone. 10 Chinese inf can be placed on Yunnan. Stalingrad mech/inf can reach Yunnan with 3 starting USSR planes. Remaining UK plane can also sit there, plus 2UK inf from Burma.
No ground troops are in range but perhaps all the starting air force.
While such an air strafe is 99%, we are assuming every Japanese plane survived and is also in range. It’s also still a negative TUV expected value. Losing all those planes would not be worth it for Japan IMO. USA would smack them around so easily after that massive hit to their forces.
@Argothair said in We need an allied playbook.:
I go back and forth on the Yunnan question
Not following. It’s one of the least close calls in the game.
@Argothair said in We need an allied playbook.:
I often burn through all of my land units and wind up with nothing to hit Yunnan with on J2 except for the 2 infantry that start in Siam
Which are vulnerable to being taken out by UK air. That’s the main merit in keeping an inf back from Yunnan J1. You’re pretty sure to have a land unit to attack Yunnan J2. The downside is that there’s a only about a 60% chance of taking the territory with your art & planes intact without bring in bombers.
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@simon33 I think maybe your preferences are so different from mine on this one that we’re having trouble communicating.
Sure, literally, it is possible for the Allies to make it impossible for Japan to take Yunnan J2 after a normal J1 opening, regardless of whether you hold an Japanese infantry back in Kiangsi. In practice, I think Allied players would very rarely want to fly the entire Russian air force to Yunnan, because holding Yunnan is worth 4 to 7 IPCs of income (depending on whether you’re playing Balanced Mod) and the ability to purchase 3 artillery instead of 4 infantry (useful, but not utterly game-changing; the entire Chinese stack shifts from an attack of about 12 punch to 17 punch, and it is slightly worse at defending).
If you stack Yunnan with literally everything that can reach as the Allies, that exposes you to strategic bombing in Russian factories on G3 and in India on J2, it makes your R3 trades much weaker and might even allow the Germans to stack one space deeper into Eastern Europe, and it makes a Japanese harbor purchase in Formosa on J2 stronger because there are no longer enough units defending India and Burma. In my opinion, these disadvantages outweigh the extra Chinese income and the extra Chinese punch.
I hear you saying that you’re somewhat interested in the question of whether to attack Yunnan with 3 land units or 4 land units on J1, but that you are pretty sure it’s wiser to attack with 4 land units when declaring J1 because without your bombers, 3 land units doesn’t give you a strong enough attack. That’s fine. I mostly agree with you about that specific point, especially if you’re insisting on taking Yunnan, rather than just clearing it.
What I’m interested in is whether it makes sense to try to capture Yunnan at all on J1 during a J1 DoW. I go back and forth on that question. I like attacking with 3 land units and 2 planes and then retreating when you are down to 1 infantry or so – you might get lucky and capture the territory, and on average you will kill more infantry than you lose. Together with a small attack on Hunan, you can bleed the Chinese pretty dry on J1 and keep Kwangsi safe for a while.
It may seem clear to you that a full J1 attack on Yunnan is obviously a good idea, but it’s not clear to me. If you want to explain more about why you’re so passionate about capturing Yunnan on J1, I’m genuinely interested to hear more about your opinions, but just declaring that “it’s one of the least close calls in the game” isn’t helpful to me.
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Why would you waste Japanese lives for Yunnan? Japan starts with lots of air but very few infantry and they are all spread out. Better consolidate those guys at honan and meet up with other japanese units and taking it next turn for sure.
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@DessertFox599 said in We need an allied playbook.:
Why would you waste Japanese lives for Yunnan? Japan starts with lots of air but very few infantry and they are all spread out. Better consolidate those guys at honan and meet up with other japanese units and taking it next turn for sure.
What extra units does Japan bring? When I’m doing my J1 I’m using all 3 transports on Borneo and Philippines.
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@Argothair said in We need an allied playbook.:
What I’m interested in is whether it makes sense to try to capture Yunnan at all on J1 during a J1 DoW. I go back and forth on that question. I like attacking with 3 land units and 2 planes and then retreating when you are down to 1 infantry or so – you might get lucky and capture the territory, and on average you will kill more infantry than you lose. Together with a small attack on Hunan, you can bleed the Chinese pretty dry on J1 and keep Kwangsi safe for a while.
Right. I read your comments as you not being sure about whether to attack Yunnan at all. The Yunnan stack is one of the strongest bids so I was very confused by your comments.
Strategic bombing on Moscow can’t start G3 unless there’s a G1 DOW. You do open Calcutta up to bombing from J2, but this isn’t a strong Axis move anyway unless the allies are likely to defer the fall of India. Makes much more sense with a J3 DOW. Anyway, a G4 unescorted bombing raid is something that is likely to need to be countered. Escorts can only make it if Belarus, W Ukraine or Ukraine fall I2. British fighters may be available for intercept, but may not too.
Ok, so if you’re just questioning whether to strafe, I still wouldn’t plan to do that. I can accept the idea of holding back an infantry in Kwangsi for reasons already discussed, but only in the case of a J1 DOW. If the battle goes badly enough, you can never rule out a retreat. I wouldn’t retreat one artillery and leave alive one Chinese inf. It puts you in a really bad tactical situation turn 3. China will stack Szechwan C1 and build artillery. Then turn 2, are you going to put your artillery into Yunnan? Doesn’t make sense given you wouldn’t do that turn 1. So China gets two turns of building up in Szechwan. By J3 you need to move into Yunnan or India can keep living too long. But China may be able to kill your stack on its own. Your choices become really bad unless you’ve taken India somehow (refer to my thread on stopping the J3 India crush). All this to save (usually) one artillery? Terrible decision. Still terrible if China got no hits on you.
If you aren’t doing the J1, my go to plan is to send the Kwangsi artillery to Hunan. There are two reasons for this. firstly just to keep the artillery alive for extra punch and an extra hit in later battles. Secondly, if the 2inf in Hunan get a double hit in the first round (1 in 9 chance) or a second hit in an improbably later round, then a Chinese counter attack is on and will probably succeed. Now, back to Yunnan, if I do indeed lose all my ground troops, I’ve never lost a plane to take the territory. I’m pretty sure I can attack it J2 in that case.
It’s massively different in a J1 DOW or later. In a J1, every ground unit is that much more precious. I can accept leaving Yunnan Chinese in a later DOW because you can that much more easily occupy it later.
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Wow, that was a lot of ink spilled over Yunnan. The National Objective and artillery bonus are legit reasons for taking and keeping Yunnan. I have to admit that in reading VDH, there was a consensus view that the Allies wanted to avoid a Verdun or a Sommes. So I am extremely hesitant to stick a British fighter there for the duration of the game to garrison the territory. Not my style.
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Doing some play testing, mechanized Russia is mixed results. Against a disciplined, methodical German player, I think it might buy you 1 extra round before Moscow falls. Better results against a careless player, that’s for sure. I’ll be trying out some variations, like all artillery R1, then mechs/tanks after that so that your counter stack is available R4 from Belarus.
For the U.S., I’m thinking IF J1, buy only bombers for the Pacific. The goal is the U.S. fleet and planes at Hawaii US1, ANZAC US2 along with bombers bought US1, and hit any Japanese fleet at the money islands on US3. A bomber buy is the only thing that can reach in time to join the original ships. This leaves US2 buy for the Atlantic OR, if Japan is sending its entire navy south, keep buying for the Pacific on US2/3 to seize SZ6. Any fighters that survived and landed on Shan State, if they’re allive US4, can help keep Yunnan/Calcutta, or can be in Moscow in time for G6
Also means UKPac/China NEED to keep Shan State or Malaya as a landing spot for planes. As a bonus this potentially gets 8 fighters/tacticals up to help UKPac/China
If that’s the move, I’m thinking ANZAC just needs its most efficient attack navy possible, but I’m wondering if destroyers would be preferable to subs since the destroyers can help defend any remaining U.S. navy from Japanese air and help act as blockers to prevent Calcutta crush.
On the other side, that means the UK needs to do enough to keep London and Cairo, and everything else is fighters dumped on Russia. Planes from England can take off from Scotland and land in Novgorod or Archangel, then on to Moscow UK2 or 3 OR help defend an aggressive Russian player in Karaelia. More UK planes can arrive in 1 move via a factory in Persia built UK2, so 3 UK fighters arrive in Moscow a turn starting UK4.
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So questions, start with the end first. If you get all that navy off the money Islands and land the planes in Shan. Where are the Axis’ economies, give or take 5? Best case? Worst? Balanced mode or OOB? And conversely how is your and your allies’ economies effected by said strategy?
btw, for Russia I like 3 men for both forward bases and mech/tank combo for rear. If mechs gave you another turn, what turn is that?
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