Handling Japan vs. Americans + Siberians + Yunnan Stack

[Argothair]

Does anyone have strategy tips for how to handle Japan when the Americans go 100% KJF, the Siberians leave all 18 infantry and both AA guns sitting in Amur, and UK Pacific + China both stack hard in Yunnan? Obviously you are not going to be sweeping the board against that kind of pressure, but are there ways to carve out and defend a medium-sized empire? Are there ways to guarantee survival past turn 8? Or do you just do what you can to slow the Allies down and hope that Germany can win on the European board?

I ask because my main strategy for dealing with a Yunnan stack is to bring the Manchurian & Korean troops south to attack it around turn 3…but if Russia is stacking everything in Amur, then I need those troops up north to defend Manchuria. Shipping enough troops south from Tokyo to deal with Yunnan while also keeping pace with the US Navy seems to rule out taking any of the money islands, so something’s got to give. What’s the first thing you give up as Japan when you’re under pressure?

• Yunnan?

• Manchuria?

• control of Pacific sea zones?

• money islands?

• something else?

[weddingsinger]

A few notes:

If U.S. goes full KJF AND Russia keeps all 18 inf in Amur, that’s great for Germany and Italy.  You don’t actually need Japan to do great, you just need one OR the other to win.  The best counter to this Allied strategy is to take Moscow and hold off the U.K.

I’m assuming you do a J1?  So you get Borneo/Hong Kong, and Phillipines on J1, rest of money islands on J2.  Whether you keep them after that or not is a whole other thing.  Just remember the math when it comes to take them back: an island worth 4 and no NO bonus you’ll get for only 1 round isn’t worth losing a transport + more.  Getting all the money islands and the bonus is probably worth losing 1 transport if you don’t need it for the next round.  Once U.S. is threatening, hanging out at the Philippines is a great spot because you can hit everywhere and toss some planes on the island to help defend the waters.

One question is about your buy:  Round 1 should probably include a factory for the mainland.  You can still move a transport or two of Manchuria/Korea troops south and not really worry about Russia.  Those 18 inf can’t attack worth a darn.  Round 2 you get another factory, probably French Indo China

In fact, go ahead and empty Korea and stack Manchuria to dare Russia to take Korea.  It voids the Manchuria defense pact and you can attack Russia and he gets no bonus.  Just don’t hand them Manchuria because that will go to China and they’re a PIA as they’ll keep adding troops there.

––
So, U.S. should start being a nuisance on US3(?) and after.  Maybe US 4.

One option is for Japan’s mainland troops to sell out and head to Moscow via China.  If they link up with Germany/Italy there around round 5, Japan’s planes can reek havoc and clear the way for Germany.  All Japan needs to do is not lose their home island.

UKPac is hopefully easy enough to keep in check.  Bomb them J2 and after that have a sub or two parked off Calcutta or other convoy’able territory.  They won’t be able to build much, if anything for a while.

[Zhukov44]

Against a full KJF it’s unlikely you’ll win.  Your objective is to hold out long enough to get the Europe victory (while not becoming so weak that USA can just focus on Germany).

I don’t recommend stacking Manchuria.  Note that Russia loses the Mongolia bonus if they invade Manchuria or Korea, so it’s not all bad for Japan.  If the Russians move south you might have the opportunity to hit them (by land/air/sea) at Manchuria or Jehoel.

Taking and holding the money islands ought to be your main priority–if they are in the hands of Anzac or India, Japan will collapse alot quicker.  Consider carefully where you place your factories since you may not be able to contain China in a game like this.   Japan should consider limiting themselves to 1 factory in this all out KJF scenario (they’ll need to spend on transports, dds, and fighters rather than inf) and Fico is prolly the best choice.

The strategy I’ve had the most success with is concentrating on taking India (and then using India as a mainland base that keeps Japan in the game after they lose their fleet)… but if you overcommit to this at the expense of the money islands it’s not likely to go well.

[simon33]

Japan is losing badly if the Burma road is held open for the allies. Perhaps the trouble this causes is the reason I don’t do J1s normally.

One move I used to do before I got better at playing Japan was to put my main stack on Kweichow which forces the Allies to defend two territories to keep the road open.

I agree with Zhukov44 about Manchuria. It’s not that bad if USSR take it. The main fear is USA taking Korea and being reinforced by USSR which is very bad. USA can then build an IC and pump out units. Sometimes the USA can land on Manchuria then walk overland to Korea. It’s worth sacrificing a few units, probably including planes, to prevent this unless you are confident that you can retake Korea - unlikely in most circumstances.

EDIT: I’ve had a look at a league game where there was a J1 and it looks like a naval base was built J2 so that India was threatened J3. This caused UK to pull back and allowed Japan to retake Yunnan, although a big Chinese stack would have made this difficult so might not work all the time.

[weddingsinger]

I’d add that for buys, I tend to stick with fast movers for the mainland and carriers for my fleets.

A sub or two is nice to sink enemy transports, or I’ll pick up a bunch if I’m planning on attacking their fleet.  I always have a destroyer or two, but other than that its all carriers for Japan.  I tend to keep my larger fleet at or near the Philipines, though, so even just a destroyer, maybe a cruiers, and 2 or 3 carriers in SZ 6 is a problem for the U.S. since he knows he’ll get kamikazed and counter attacked.

And never forget how useful your planes are.  Had the U.S./ANZAC parked at Caroline Islands, and every Japanese plane could reach because they were on Japan or Philipines (or carriers in those waters).  They all had to land on carriers or an island in the next territory but annhilated the allied fleet.  He was soooo pissed.

[Argothair]

Thanks for all the useful tips, everyone.

Japan is losing badly if the Burma road is held open for the allies. Perhaps the trouble this causes is the reason I don’t do J1s normally.

How, precisely, does waiting until J2 to declare war help close the Burma road? When you wait to declare war, you’ve got 8 land units that are in range to attack the Chinese on J1, and you can bring a maximum of 4 planes to Yunnan, plus about 4 planes to Hunan if you like. When you declare war on J1, you’ve still got those same 8 land units and 8 planes. I guess some people might want to divert a strategic bomber or two to hit the British battleship, which somewhat weakens the attack on Yunnan, but even with 3 inf, 1 art, 1 ftr, 1 tac, you should be able to beat 4 inf most of the time, no? Let’s say diverting the strategic bombers means that you take Yunnan with 1 infantry remaining instead of 2 infantry remaining. Is that really the margin of victory for closing the road? China can retaliate with 8+ infantry.

[simon33]

Precisely because the J1 DOW requires you to strip the Hunan attack of land units. Normally 2 from Kiangsi go to Kwangtung and 1 goes to Borneo leaving only 1 to go to Hunan. Even if this inf wins it can be attacked but even if it survives that, there is no way that the 3-4 inf who can move into Yunnan J2 can hold it without a massive air only attack on the troops stationed in Szechwan. It’s a different story if 7 land units are available (including the Mech from Manchuria). Also, bringing the 2 strat bombers allows you to strip the artillery out of Yunnan and still have an 77% chance of taking the territory and keeping all your planes. It’s arguable that this is a good idea though.

Also, UK can do some significant help to holding Yunnan without adverse consequences with a J1 and your transports aren’t bringing in any reinforcements from Tokyo which they would be doing with a J2.

Enough reasons?

[Littorio]

Another suggestion… if you expect a KJF you could do a J1 and attack the fleet in SZ26 as well as SZ35. This leaves the US significantly weakened in the Pacific. It will take them time to recover. If they bring all their fleet to Hawaii in U1 you can wipe it out with carriers and fighters from Japan. Two carriers and 8 planes will wipe anything the Americans can bring on U1. This should help keep them at arms length for a couple of turns…

[Argothair]

UK can do some significant help to holding Yunnan without adverse consequences with a J1

Lol, now I just feel dumb. Duh! If you don’t declare war on the UK, then the UK has to declare war on you in order to stack Yunnan. Can’t believe I missed that. There are ways to work around some of the other stuff (stripping the Chinese coast to invade the Philippines, etc.), but there’s not much Japan can do about having UK Pac dump 3 ground units and 2 planes into Yunnan. That’s pretty decisive.

Thanks for reminding me of what should have been obvious. :-)

[weddingsinger]

Ooo, just realized… if U.S. is KJF then Germany going Sea Lion might be a good idea.  If the U.S. did nothing on US 1 for the Europe side, taking London and keeping it for a while is huge.  My last game I was able to hold it for good since, once you have London/Scotland, U.S. bombers can’t help in the fight.

[thespaceman]

The other thing is it should free Italy to grab everything from gibraltar to syria. Even if Germany only threatens uk.

If they can do that italies income will rival uk. Then if still no US Atlantic fleet you can expand further

Brazil
South and central africa
Middle east
Russia
India.

I would say that italy gains the most from a pure kjf

[weddingsinger]

@thespaceman:

The other thing is it should free Italy to grab everything from gibraltar to syria. Even if Germany only threatens uk.

If they can do that italies income will rival uk. Then if still no US Atlantic fleet you can expand further

True, though if things are going well for Germany in Moscow, you just need Italy to take and hold Cairo for your 8th victory city and the win.

/I think my cleanest win was Germany getting Moscow, Japan getting Volgogrod, and Italy taking Cairo all on round 6.

[simon33]

@thespaceman:

The other thing is it should free Italy to grab everything from gibraltar to syria. Even if Germany only threatens uk.

Normally the UK can hold Egypt.

[Jennifer]

@Argothair:

Does anyone have strategy tips for how to handle Japan when the Americans go 100% KJF, the Siberians leave all 18 infantry and both AA guns sitting in Amur, and UK Pacific + China both stack hard in Yunnan? Obviously you are not going to be sweeping the board against that kind of pressure, but are there ways to carve out and defend a medium-sized empire? Are there ways to guarantee survival past turn 8? Or do you just do what you can to slow the Allies down and hope that Germany can win on the European board?

I ask because my main strategy for dealing with a Yunnan stack is to bring the Manchurian & Korean troops south to attack it around turn 3…but if Russia is stacking everything in Amur, then I need those troops up north to defend Manchuria. Shipping enough troops south from Tokyo to deal with Yunnan while also keeping pace with the US Navy seems to rule out taking any of the money islands, so something’s got to give. What’s the first thing you give up as Japan when you’re under pressure?

• Yunnan?

• Manchuria?

• control of Pacific sea zones?

• money islands?

• something else?

Would be worse if Russia goes hard into China to assist in the Chinese defense.  A couple tanks, mech infantry and planes from Russia can really screw up the Japanese invasion in SE Asia, and if Germany doesn’t go to war with Russia early, the Russians will hardly miss them in the short term.

Of course, I think the solution is to have Italy spearhead into Russia and reinforce with Germany to push hard and fast on Russia to pull pressure off.  Then again, I have not played “professionally” (aka on these boards) in a long time so if you want functional details, don’t ask me. :P

[weddingsinger]

@Cmdr:

Would be worse if Russia goes hard into China to assist in the Chinese defense.  A couple tanks, mech infantry and planes from Russia can really screw up the Japanese invasion in SE Asia, and if Germany doesn’t go to war with Russia early, the Russians will hardly miss them in the short term.

Of course, I think the solution is to have Italy spearhead into Russia and reinforce with Germany to push hard and fast on Russia to pull pressure off.  Then again, I have not played “professionally” (aka on these boards) in a long time so if you want functional details, don’t ask me. :P

I’ve been debating with myself about this - I need to get back to playing AAA again - whether seeing a KJF AND Russian reinforcing China would mean Germany should blitz Moscow or go ahead and take out UK for good.  No UK means few or no planes reinforcing Moscow (unless U.S. does it), might open up Africa/ME for Italy (certainly does eventually), and no naval help for U.S. in the Atlantic, but means Germany doesn’t hit Russia til G5 when you can use your transports to take everything on the Baltic Sea coast (Baltics, Novgorod, Finland, Vyborg) and Karelia.  Also, depending on Russia’s buys and position, Eastern Poland or Bessarabia.  But that also means my German/Italian bombers aren’t hitting Moscow til G7 instead of G5, which I don’t like either.  Best case scenario is taking Moscow G8.  I wonder if Japan could hold out that long.

[Jennifer]

weddingsinger:

IMHO - blitz Russia, make them pull out.

Also, caveat - my definition of KJF does not require taking Tokyo.  If Japan has no fleet on the seas, then it’s dead. (Or if their fleet has run off to the Atlantic, same thing.)  This shaves off half a dozen rounds at least since now the US can just sit there and blockade while ANZAC cleans up the water, China the SE and India turns to assist in the middle east/Africa.  Eventually you’re sitting there with 10 to 12 submarines off the coast of Japan in which case, they may as well be dead.

[AxisAndAllies1940]

I am in fact in a similar situation myself in a current game. I’m focussing on the Dutch East Indies, the Chinese coast (including Kwangtung), and the naval defence of sea zone 6. I look like holding out until Germany can accumulate 8 VCs.

[Jennifer]

Pretty much all Japan can do against a concerted effort - keep em distracted and hope Germany can win.