Russia Question

[Locke888]

On the pacific map U.K. and Anzac are Allies.
On the European map Germany and Italy are allies.

If Anzac attacks japan then the U.K. is at war with Japan also.
If Italy attacks Russia then Germany ISNT AT WAR WITH RUSSIA?

[Amalec]

The rules are very clear:
It is legal for Germany to move into allied (Italian) held territory - regardless of the original owner.
It is illegal for Russia to combat move into a territory that contain units belonging to a power with whom it is not at war - regardless of the original owner.

Why keep arguing the rules are dumb or make no real world sense? That has nothing to do with what the book clearly states. Change the at your table rules if you don’t like them and move on.

*Aside: it’s hardly uncommon for a ‘neutral’ power to occupy territory claimed but not controlled by another power without declaring war, either to hold it for a third party or annex it themselves. See: various ‘policing’ actions of the US, Russian annexation of Crimea in 2014, etc.

[Leatherneckinlv]

Amalec

No it is not….Germans and Russians have a non aggression pact…this is not Italian territory…It is a Russian territory in control by Italy…The Pact makes it a Russian territory…ILLEGAL

[Amalec]

@Leatherneckinlv:

Amalec

No it is not….Germans and Russians have a non aggression pact…this is not Italian territory…It is a Russian territory in control by Italy…The Pact makes it a Russian territory…ILLEGAL

There is no support for your claims in the rulebook. The section on territories makes things very clear.

Territories
The border colors of the territories on the game board show which power controls them at the start of the game. Each
power has its own color and emblem (the United Kingdom controls the Canadian territories in addition to those with
its own emblem). When the rules refer to the �original controller� of a territory, they mean the power whose emblem is
printed on the territory. All other spaces are neutral and are not aligned with any power.

[…]

All territories exist in one of three conditions:
Friendly: Controlled by you or a friendly power.
Hostile: Controlled by a power with which you are at war.
Neutral: Not controlled by any power, or controlled by a power on the other side with which you are not yet at war
(see �The Political Situation,� page 9). Neutral territories, such as Switzerland, have white borders and do not have any
power�s emblem on them. Most such territories also have a unit silhouette with a number, which indicates how many
infantry units the territory will generate to defend itself when its neutrality is violated. The Sahara Desert and Pripet
Marshes are impassable and may not be moved into or through by any units.

As you can see, Italian-held but originally Russian territory is defined simply as “Friendly”.

[Leatherneckinlv]

Exactly….the rule book does not cover this scenario…you just made my point

Germans entering into an original Russian territory controlled by Italians hence breaks the pact…it is a DOW so no bonus…if they want to honor the pact then they can’t make that move

[Leatherneckinlv]

The pact signed by the Germans and Russians and neither declaring war on each other is the key here…this is not a typical territory…it now has nuances to it making it unique…hence rules written as is do not apply here…technicality in Russians favor

Those rules are wrong in this instance…had there been no pact…I would agree with you…that is not the case

ILLEGAL MOVE

[Amalec]

@Leatherneckinlv:

Exactly….the rule book does not cover this scenario…you just made my point

Germans entering into an original Russian territory controlled by Italians hence breaks the pact…it is a DOW so no bonus…if they want to honor the pact then they can’t make that move�

I honestly cannot understand how you leap from ‘a Russian territory controlled by Italy is Friendly to Germany’, to ‘therefor Germany cannot move there’.

The territory is strictly defined as Friendly to Germany because it is Italian controlled. Germany can move into friendly territory.

This is the entirety of Germany’s political situation. There is no pact.

Political Situation: Germany is at war with France, the United Kingdom, and ANZAC. Germany may declare war on
the United States, the Soviet Union, or China at the beginning of the Combat Move phase of any of its turns. A state of
war between Germany and one of these three powers won’t affect its relations with the other two.

[Leatherneckinlv]

the freaking non aggression PACT….sheesh man…Russian political situation

Europe rule book page 9…Molotov - Ribbentrop pact
Russia may declare war against AN axis power…SINGULAR…meaning Italy

German non combat move into East Poland (Italian controlled) is an aggressive move into a territory that was covered in the pact (All original Russian territories) hence breaking the pact meaning DOW and no bonus or it is an ILLEGALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL move…sheesh

and yes this scenario is not covered in the book in any form or fashion…hence those rules (Powers not at War) does not apply here

[Leatherneckinlv]

Why is this important?

because even if there is a German warship in SZ 125 Russia may collect it’s income Bonus and now the Infantry defend at 2 instead of attack at 1….so yup…the dice odds

[Amalec]

@Leatherneckinlv:

the freaking non aggression PACT….sheesh man…Russian political situation

Europe rule book page 9…Molotov - Ribbentrop pact
Russia may declare war against AN axis power…SINGULAR…meaning Italy

German non combat move into East Poland (Italian controlled) is an aggressive move into a territory that was covered in the pact (All original Russian territories) hence breaking the pact meaning DOW and no bonus or it is an ILLEGALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL move…sheesh

and yes this scenario is not covered in the book in any form or fashion…hence those rules (Powers not at War) does not apply here

Russia may declare war against Italy, but it still cannot move into a territory with German units without declaring war on Germany.

A power can�t attack a territory controlled
by or containing units belonging to a power with
which it is not at war.

I do not know why you think the Powers Not At War section does not apply to two powers not at war (Germany and Russia), but it does. The rules are all clear. At this point, you are arguing that 2+2 does not equal 4. You have left logic behind.

[Leatherneckinlv]

And it prevents German encroachment into Russia should Russians withdraw to Bryansk and Germans keep moving in not DOW into Russia

[Leatherneckinlv]

Amalec….I guess you are not understanding the non aggression pact…

there is a PACT between Germany and Russia…are you aware of this? This is a NON-AGGRESSION pact
Movement into Russia by Germany is an AGGRESSIVE action…damn be that it is now an Italian allied territory…this is not a move into an allied territory, say Yugoslavia was taken Round 1 also by Italy. This is a move into a territory that was signed by a PACT…hence an original controlled RUSSIAN territory

ILLEGAL MOVE

[Amalec]

@Leatherneckinlv:

And it prevents German encroachment into Russia should Russians withdraw to Bryansk and Germans keep moving in not DOW into Russia

This is not true. The extent of the pact is as follows:

This secret agreement, known as the MolotovRibbentrop
pact, assures that the Soviet Union will
remain neutral should Germany go to war in Europe. It
also permits each power to expand its sphere of influence
in Eastern Europe without interference from the other.
As a result, the Soviet Union may not declare war on any
Axis power before its fourth turn unless an Axis power
declares war on it first. However, if London is captured
by an Axis power, the Soviet Union may declare war on
its following turn.

It is a restriction on when the SU can declare war. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Leatherneckinlv]

Germany moving into Eastern Poland is interference

Oh my lord….slapping my head…it is breaking the pact

[Leatherneckinlv]

By moving in on non combat move you are interfering and acting aggressively…interference is all this non sense about Russia not being able to attack Italy to regain it’s territory

[Amalec]

@Leatherneckinlv:

Germany moving into Eastern Poland is interference

Oh my lord….slapping my head…it is breaking the pact

Please define “interference” in the rulebook. Please show what “act aggressively” means, and why a player cannot “act aggressively” towards a neutral power. Please show in the rulebook where the pact indicates Germany cannot move into original Russian territory. It does none of those things. Nor does anything else.

You don’t like the rule, and that’s fine. But the book only says what it says.

[Leatherneckinlv]

Worse yet is if Russia decides to hold it’s line at Bryansk you can make this move one more time into Western Ukraine because Italy takes it….Germans don’t DOW and non combat move again and another 5 IPC bonus

[Elsaß-Lorraine]

Guys, there’s no “pact” outside of Russia not being able to declare war on Germany or Italy until turn 4 UNLESS they were attacked by either power first. Molotov-Ribbentrop isn’t really a thing in this game.
Germany is not declaring war on Russia (or “violating the pact” call it what you wish) as they did not attack Russia, but Russia is free to declare war on Germany on their turn as they are now at war with Italy. That means no more German objective after the first Eastern Poland move.
The rules have been stated many times over, by regular members and official rules deputies alike, and they are clear. Obviously there is nothing stopping you from playing a different way in your personal games, the A&A Police will not knock down your door and arrest you. However, you are not going to change rules that have stood for years by arguing this over and over again.

[Leatherneckinlv]

Amalec….play Russia here…you are the Russian player facing this scenario…German movement into your territory is a friendly act when especially you are allied to the Italians? You would consider this friendly or aggressive movement by the Germans…considering you are now not being allowed to attack the Italians by your presence? WITH ABSOLUTELY no repercussions…and to boot collecting bonus income on a PACT you signed

[Amalec]

@Leatherneckinlv:

Amalec….play Russia here…you are the Russian player facing this scenario…German movement into your territory is a friendly act when especially you are allied to the Italians? You would consider this friendly or aggressive movement by the Germans…considering you are now not being allowed to attack the Italians by your presence? WITH ABSOLUTELY no repercussions…and to boot collecting bonus income on a PACT you signed

Sure, it makes no sense. It’s also makes no sense for the German air force to, entirely on it’s own, wipe out a half dozen infantry divisions in Alexandria, but that’s the game we’re playing. It’s not a simulation.

You can keep saying PACT in all caps if you like, but the game mechanics do not recognize it the you think they should. As has been said: the rules are clear and established. I’ve done what I can to help you understand them, but this has turned into a pointless argument.