RULE CLARIFICATION: Italy DOWs Moves to E. Poland - Germany Moves Doesn't DOW

[PainState]

Well concerning the rule in question it all seems sound and I agree with it.

That being said. How does it actually effect the game?

By going down this path you have done a few things.

#1 You have forced a G4 attack from Germany into Russia. (Germany is staging their forces in G3 to take advantage of the Italian moves on I2)
#2 You have freed up Russia on R3 to move into the middle East to take Iraq. (They are no longer Neutral)
#3 Before the main attack from Germany comes storming in, Russia has had 3 full build turns. (Tipped your hand to Russia if you stage is Besarabia to go the southern route)

The main advantage of this plan IMO, is that Italy takes Besarabia.  Besarabia is the key Territory to move into Southern Russia. It allows the Germans if they can stage into that territory one step closer with their INF, that is a big deal when looking at the tactical situation in Southern Russia. Most players go the northern route when invading Russia because the INF are one territory closer to Leningrad. Germany though wants to go South because of their NO’s but time and spacing of the board makes it harder to go South.

Obviously you can take both Eastern Poland and Besarabia with Italy and then reinforce Eastern Poland with a few German units to prevent the Russian counterattack in R3 against a Italian held territory with no German back up.

NOW

lets just say that on R1 Russia backs off all three border territories. Italy has it set up so they can take advantage on Italy Turn 1. Russia Turn 2 and they do not cover the 3 border territories. Italy on Turn 2 takes all three of them. Baltic States, Eastern Poland and Besarbia. That opens up a huge can of worms for the Germans to exploit on G3 to set up the G4 attack. (What to do in this case is an entire thread unto it self.) (Just checked the OOB Italy set up and they only have 2 tanks with in range of Russia on I2, so the most they can take is two territories and not all 3)

**Note to all Russian players **

DO NOT allow Italian to just walk into all three border territories. Sacrifice 1 INF in each space, take your lumps and make Italy Attack into them. Letting them “walk” in is to great an advantage for the Axis.

If Germany has tipped their hand that they are going all in on Sea Lion, never abandon the border territories and stage forces in them. Totally shut down any plan from Italian forces of taking one of your border territories.

Now if we look at the IPC impact of this move it is basically a wash.

Germany Gets 15 IPC from Russia on G1-3

Russia gets 10 IPC from Lend lease on R3 -4 because they are now at war.

Russia most likely gets Irag on R4 for 5 IPC. (2 for Iraq and 3 for NO’s)

So at the end of Russia turn 4. Germany and Russia have both gotten 15 IPC on NO’s.

**** THE BOTTOM LINE  *****

IF Russia lets italy take Besarabia on I2 with their 2 tanks the Italians need to take it so Germany can reinforce on G3 OR invade themselves and blitz through. Besarabia is the key to this entire plan.

[happynewyear1945]

the issue I have then, strictly speaking is this;

1. Italy Dow Russia, combat moves into a Russian territory,
2. germany non combats 1 unit into Italy’s occupied space in Russia,
3. Russia attacks the Italian occupied space…
4. Russia has not declared war on Germany,
5. what happens with the German combat unit?

[Requester45]

@happynewyear1945:

the issue I have then, strictly speaking is this;

1. Italy Dow Russia, combat moves into a Russian territory,
2. germany non combats 1 unit into Italy’s occupied space in Russia,
3. Russia attacks the Italian occupied space…
4. Russia has not declared war on Germany,
5. what happens with the German combat unit?

As I previously stated, the rules show that the Soviet Union cannot attack a territory containing a German unit, meaning they wouldn’t be able to attack Italy.

[wheatbeer]

For the specific reference, see the Powers Not at War with One Another box on page 15, Europe rules:
"Combat: A power can’t attack a territory controlled by or containing units belonging to a power with which it is not at war. "

(note: sea zones work differently than land territories in this regard)

[suprise attack]

Heres one a lot of people may have a question with
Germany does not DOW. on Russia on R4, but Russia DOW’s on Germany R4. What happens to the neutrals like Turkey, Spain, and Sweden
Tanks

[happynewyear1945]

@Requester45:

@happynewyear1945:

the issue I have then, strictly speaking is this;

1. Italy Dow Russia, combat moves into a Russian territory,
2. germany non combats 1 unit into Italy’s occupied space in Russia,
3. Russia attacks the Italian occupied space…
4. Russia has not declared war on Germany,
5. what happens with the German combat unit?

As I previously stated, the rules show that the Soviet Union cannot attack a territory containing a German unit, meaning they wouldn’t be able to attack Italy.

From Page 15,

Combat: A power can’t attack a territory controlled
by or containing units belonging to a power with
which it is not at war

Which i am Aware of;

Page 22

Where Units Can Move
Land Units: A land unit can move into any friendly or
friendly neutral territory, including territories that were
captured in the current turn. It can’t move into or through
a hostile territory (not even one that contains no combat
units but is enemy-controlled) or an unfriendly neutral
or strict neutral territory. If your power isn’t at war, you
can’t move your units into territories belonging to another
friendly power or a friendly neutral.

See above;
It make MORE sense that Germany Cant non combat into Russia when not at war, than for Russia not to be able to attack Italian occupied Territory because Germany has pieces in it.

[Young Grasshopper]

@suprise:

Heres one a lot of people may have a question with
Germany does not DOW. on Russia on R4, but Russia DOW’s on Germany R4. What happens to the neutrals like Turkey, Spain, and Sweden
Tanks

They stay strict neutrals, a Russian DOW or a DOW from any nation doesn’t effect strict neutrals like Sweden, Turkey, or Spain. Are you getting the Mongolian rule mixed up here?

[Requester45]

Good point YG. The rules have been cleared up, and there would be no reason for the Soviet Union to not declare war. In the case that they dont, they cannot attack a territory with German units.

[Elsaß-Lorraine]

@happynewyear1945:

@Requester45:

@happynewyear1945:

the issue I have then, strictly speaking is this;

1. Italy Dow Russia, combat moves into a Russian territory,
2. germany non combats 1 unit into Italy’s occupied space in Russia,
3. Russia attacks the Italian occupied space…
4. Russia has not declared war on Germany,
5. what happens with the German combat unit?

As I previously stated, the rules show that the Soviet Union cannot attack a territory containing a German unit, meaning they wouldn’t be able to attack Italy.

From Page 15,

Combat: A power can�t attack a territory controlled
by or containing units belonging to a power with
which it is not at war

Which i am Aware of;

Page 22

Where Units Can Move
Land Units: A land unit can move into any friendly or
friendly neutral territory, including territories that were
captured in the current turn. It can�t move into or through
a hostile territory (not even one that contains no combat
units but is enemy-controlled) or an unfriendly neutral
or strict neutral territory. If your power isn�t at war, you
can�t move your units into territories belonging to another
friendly power or a friendly neutral.

See above;
It make MORE sense that Germany Cant non combat into Russia when not at war, than for Russia not to be able to attack Italian occupied Territory because Germany has pieces in it.

Germany is at war (with Britain and France) so the rules about Powers not at War don’t apply to them. Also, that territory is Italian so it should be treated just as if Germany wanted to land a fighter in Southern Italy - it’s your ally’s land, so you can move into it freely.
Same situation with USSR in that they can move into neutrals and declare war on Germany now that they are at war in Europe

[happynewyear1945]

@Elsass-Lorraine:

@happynewyear1945:

@Requester45:

@happynewyear1945:

the issue I have then, strictly speaking is this;

1. Italy Dow Russia, combat moves into a Russian territory,
2. germany non combats 1 unit into Italy’s occupied space in Russia,
3. Russia attacks the Italian occupied space…
4. Russia has not declared war on Germany,
5. what happens with the German combat unit?

As I previously stated, the rules show that the Soviet Union cannot attack a territory containing a German unit, meaning they wouldn’t be able to attack Italy.

From Page 15,

Combat: A power can�t attack a territory controlled
by or containing units belonging to a power with
which it is not at war

Which i am Aware of;

Page 22

Where Units Can Move
Land Units: A land unit can move into any friendly or
friendly neutral territory, including territories that were
captured in the current turn. It can�t move into or through
a hostile territory (not even one that contains no combat
units but is enemy-controlled) or an unfriendly neutral
or strict neutral territory. If your power isn�t at war, you
can�t move your units into territories belonging to another
friendly power or a friendly neutral.

See above;
It make MORE sense that Germany Cant non combat into Russia when not at war, than for Russia not to be able to attack Italian occupied Territory because Germany has pieces in it.

Germany is at war (with Britain and France) so the rules about Powers not at War don’t apply to them. Also, that territory is Italian so it should be treated just as if Germany wanted to land a fighter in Southern Italy - it’s your ally’s land, so you can move into it freely.
Same situation with USSR in that they can move into neutrals and declare war on Germany now that they are at war in Europe

Fair enough. All the years I’ve been playing and this has never come up. The depth of this game eh.

[suprise attack]

In my earlier question, I was Russia and Germany did not DOW on me, so I DOW’ed Germany. When it was the Italian turn they stepped into Spain and Turkey and there was no battle, just occupation. This was in an on line game, and it came down to a Neutral declared war which changes the relationship with with the strict Neutrals to Pro Axis. The game allowed it and the Moderators never spoke up. I think my game wasnt the first time it happened in 39,000 plus games.
Any rule clarifications would be cool
Surprise Attack

[Ichabod]

That would be against the rules. Was that on triplea or the axis and allies simulator by steam? Never seen that permitted by the system. But also, you have to watch for those moments when the game doesn’t auto enforce the rules.

[variance]

@suprise:

In my earlier question, I was Russia and Germany did not DOW on me, so I DOW’ed Germany. When it was the Italian turn they stepped into Spain and Turkey and there was no battle, just occupation. This was in an on line game, and it came down to a Neutral declared war which changes the relationship with with the strict Neutrals to Pro Axis. The game allowed it and the Moderators never spoke up. I think my game wasnt the first time it happened in 39,000 plus games.
Any rule clarifications would be cool
Surprise Attack

Sounds like the allies declared war, or the software had a glitch?

[General 6 Stars]

You should call Turkey and Spain Strict Neutrals so there’s less confusion.

[PainState]

A lot of posters seemed stunned at this scenario, never scene it ever happen or even could happen. Now that I mulled it over last night and looked at the rules and so forth it is very obvious to me why no one has ever scene this scenario. Because the scenario makes no logical sense.

Italy DOW on Russia and moves in 2 tanks into Eastern Poland.
Russia is now at war with Italy and can DOW on Germany at the start of their next turn, turn 3.
Germany on Turn 3 does not DOW on Russia and just non combats into Eastern Poland.
Russia at the start of Turn 3 DOW on Germany and off we go.

There is no logical reason why Russia would not DOW on Germany at the start of Turn 3, none.

Heck you could argue that it makes no logical sense that Germany did not DOW on Russia at the start of G3 since Italy brought Russia into the war and Russia WILL DOW on Germany on R3.

[taamvan]

Good point;  Russia is allowed to declare war on Germany because it is at war with one of Germany’s Allies that isn’t Japan.  (if we used Japan in this loophole, it’s war with Russia is treated separately in the global rules).

Right?

This sounds as if it would be utterly cheese-riffic if Russia was not allowed to declare war because the other permitted conditions were not met (its not turn 4, and London is still up.)

I mean, its so broken one would imagine its being used and abused constantly in AAA I just didn’t notice that nuance by looking at other peoples play/situations.

[Requester45]

I have to disagree with the last few posts. Unless Germany is going to take 5 or more IPC’s worth of territories from Russia on turn 3, it makes more sense to not DOW. Germany would get the 5 IPC’s and have a better positioning for a push in any direction in Russia. It’s not just Eastern Poland that they could move into. If Italy wanted, they could move into the Baltic States, followed by Germany, resulting in awesome positioning for Germany on turn 4. They could then expand outwards on turn 4 to grab more IPC’s from Russia effectively making it worth it to DOW if Russia hasn’t. However Russia will inevitably DOW Germany, which is fine because they really couldn’t do anything to Germany, and Germany wouldn’t care because they would be attacking Russia turn 4 anyway. This would also put Italy’s tank in an awesome position on turn 4 because after the German advance (most likely into either the Ukraine or Novgorod) it could move into either Archangel or Rostov. Moving into Archangel would take away 5 IPC bonus from Russia, and moving into Rostov poses a threat to the middle east. Russia could take the Italian tank out the following turn, however this would be detrimental because at that point they would need all of the defensive units they could get. So strategically speaking this new strategy makes sense and I feel as though we will see alot of it.

[PainState]

@Requester45:

I have to disagree with the last few posts. Unless Germany is going to take 5 or more IPC’s worth of territories from Russia on turn 3, it makes more sense to not DOW. Germany would get the 5 IPC’s and have a better positioning for a push in any direction in Russia. It’s not just Eastern Poland that they could move into. If Italy wanted, they could move into the Baltic States, followed by Germany, resulting in awesome positioning for Germany on turn 4. They could then expand outwards on turn 4 to grab more IPC’s from Russia effectively making it worth it to DOW if Russia hasn’t. However Russia will inevitably DOW Germany, which is fine because they really couldn’t do anything to Germany, and Germany wouldn’t care because they would be attacking Russia turn 4 anyway. This would also put Italy’s tank in an awesome position on turn 4 because after the German advance (most likely into either the Ukraine or Novgorod) it could move into either Archangel or Rostov. Moving into Archangel would take away 5 IPC bonus from Russia, and moving into Rostov poses a threat to the middle east. Russia could take the Italian tank out the following turn, however this would be detrimental because at that point they would need all of the defensive units they could get. So strategically speaking this new strategy makes sense and I feel as though we will see alot of it.

Requester: I think you are confused on this discussion.

The original question was can Italy DOW on Russia, then have German Units move in to Italian controlled territories which would prevent Russia from attacking the Italians because they have German units (who they are not at war with) stacked with them.

That question was already answered that if Italy DOW’s Russia then that frees up Russia to declare war on Germany on their turn.  So, it is a mute point.

What you described is classic Italy “can opening” for Germany. This concept is not new and is used all the time by the German/Italian player.

[Requester45]

@PainState:

@Requester45:

I have to disagree with the last few posts. Unless Germany is going to take 5 or more IPC’s worth of territories from Russia on turn 3, it makes more sense to not DOW. Germany would get the 5 IPC’s and have a better positioning for a push in any direction in Russia. It’s not just Eastern Poland that they could move into. If Italy wanted, they could move into the Baltic States, followed by Germany, resulting in awesome positioning for Germany on turn 4. They could then expand outwards on turn 4 to grab more IPC’s from Russia effectively making it worth it to DOW if Russia hasn’t. However Russia will inevitably DOW Germany, which is fine because they really couldn’t do anything to Germany, and Germany wouldn’t care because they would be attacking Russia turn 4 anyway. This would also put Italy’s tank in an awesome position on turn 4 because after the German advance (most likely into either the Ukraine or Novgorod) it could move into either Archangel or Rostov. Moving into Archangel would take away 5 IPC bonus from Russia, and moving into Rostov poses a threat to the middle east. Russia could take the Italian tank out the following turn, however this would be detrimental because at that point they would need all of the defensive units they could get. So strategically speaking this new strategy makes sense and I feel as though we will see alot of it.

Requester: I think you are confused on this discussion.

The original question was can Italy DOW on Russia, then have German Units move in to Italian controlled territories which would prevent Russia from attacking the Italians because they have German units (who they are not at war with) stacked with them.

That question was already answered that if Italy DOW’s Russia then that frees up Russia to declare war on Germany on their turn.  So, it is a mute point.

What you described is classic Italy “can opening” for Germany. This concept is not new and is used all the time by the German/Italian player.

I’m not sure if you have followed all of my comments, but I am not confused in the slightest. As I had said I think that it makes sense for Germany to not DOW, and collect the bonus IPC’s. I was saying this because someone had said that it was pointless for Germany not to DOW. I said that it makes sense, if you don’t take 5 or more IPC’s worth of territory.

[Ichabod]

@PainState:

A lot of posters seemed stunned at this scenario, never scene it ever happen or even could happen. Now that I mulled it over last night and looked at the rules and so forth it is very obvious to me why no one has ever scene this scenario. Because the scenario makes no logical sense.

Italy DOW on Russia and moves in 2 tanks into Eastern Poland.
Russia is now at war with Italy and can DOW on Germany at the start of their next turn, turn 3.
Germany on Turn 3 does not DOW on Russia and just non combats into Eastern Poland.
Russia at the start of Turn 3 DOW on Germany and off we go.

There is no logical reason why Russia would not DOW on Germany at the start of Turn 3, none.

Heck you could argue that it makes no logical sense that Germany did not DOW on Russia at the start of G3 since Italy brought Russia into the war and Russia WILL DOW on Germany on R3.

Hi PainState,

From my perspective, if I was planning on doing a G3 Barbarossa AND I wanted to drive towards the south, then yes, it makes sense to not DOW. My stack will all be together, accept for the minimum required mobile units and maybe 1 AAA in Poland so Russia doesn’t attack Poland to get their NO for occupying an Axis territory. But E. Poland will be real strong because all of German air will be there. Also, 5 IPCs is more income than I’d probably get as Germany on the 1st turn.

There are a few disadvantages of course. 1, some other Russian blockers can’t be attacked. 2, the Scandinavian units are behind. But for me that’s ok, I just use them to lay siege anyways. I never expect to get Moscow on turn 6 anymore because I assume that the UK/Anzac and that loan French fighter are going to get to Moscow.