The Afrika Korps

[LHoffman]

@Arthur:

GHG, it would be easier if you set some of this up in Triple A and take screen shots of the combat moves and typical board layout after die rolling.  It is too hard to follow along on the video.

Adding up these three risky battles give you about a 40% chance of having an outcome that is so bad you blow the massive initial Axis advantage.  If you are playing a standard no-bid game, you don’t need to be this aggressive on G1 to win.  You should be able to win 75+% of the time against a good Allied player.

Try out TripleA since the Battle Calculator is invaluable for evaluating the effectiveness of opening moves.

GHG:  I watched your Germany video and found it intriguing. Disclaimer that I have not yet read this thread and can’t comment on the strategy of this ‘Afrika Korps’ move as a whole… yet.

I would second Bomber Harris to some degree. The more scientific you can make a strategy, the better it will be in practice. To that end, it seemed like many, if not most, of your Axis rolls were highly favorable and many of the Allied rolls were highly unfavorable. I know that wasn’t intentional and that this is not a true simulation of the whole game, but the end result of your version of the strategy becomes somewhat anecdotal in that it cannot be reliably repeated.

You may still be able to make use of a simple calculator found here on the site for some of your strategy sessions (http://calc.axisandallies.org/). Forgive me if you were already aware of its existence. Like you, I prefer to play the game in person and do not calculate odds on battles. I have played TripleA, but don’t care to spend more time in front of a computer screen than I already do. However, this is not very obtrusive and you can run decent battle simulations with it, even thousands of times over, within seconds to come up with more representative results. You could achieve this by running standard roll simulations or using the low luck dice function.

The element of complete chance rolling is part of the appeal of the game to me. I am not sure that I would want to play an online game in which that chance was removed for the averaging of overall odds. Yet, I recognize that in making a real proof to a strategy, this kind of sanitized odds should be used, ideally. I am not sure that it was even your intention to scientifically prove anything; rather than just to demonstrated the spirit of a particular strategy. Either one is a worthy endeavor. Nice work on the videos and glad to have you around supporting the community. Looking forward to seeing more from you.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

Thank you for your advice and your kind words. I was really only trying to put forth a general strategy on how to get to the Med and give Italy a role in the game. I understand completely what your saying by the luck that I was having with the rolls, I felt almost embarrassed to give the results and even considered redoing them. I think what I’m going to try and do in the future is not bother rolling and getting too specific, but rather suggest to go in a direction and what to do if the rolls go well or poorly. That’s how I play the game, have a strategy and then try to achieve it based on how the opponent responds and how the rolls go. I believe if you get too specific on exactly what to move and where to move it then you will be ill-equiped over the course of time to respond to the game that you are playing and the opponent that you are playing against. One of the things that made me a pretty good board game player over the years was that I understood that the game is not only played on the board but played by the players as well. There is a certain amount of persuasion and manipulation that can occur between the players. Reducing the game to calculators and scientific strategies takes much of the human element (and fun) out of the game. To each his own though and if you guys get lots of enjoyment playing the game the way you do then that’s all that matters.

[LHoffman]

@GeneralHandGrenade:

Thank you for your advice and your kind words. I was really only trying to put forth a general strategy on how to get to the Med and give Italy a role in the game. I understand completely what your saying by the luck that I was having with the rolls, I felt almost embarrassed to give the results and even considered redoing them. I think what I’m going to try and do in the future is not bother rolling and getting too specific, but rather suggest to go in a direction and what to do if the rolls go well or poorly. That’s how I play the game, have a strategy and then try to achieve it based on how the opponent responds and how the rolls go. I believe if you get too specific on exactly what to move and where to move it then you will be ill-equiped over the course of time to respond to the game that you are playing and the opponent that you are playing against. One of the things that made me a pretty good board game player over the years was that I understood that the game is not only played on the board but played by the players as well. There is a certain amount of persuasion and manipulation that can occur between the players. Reducing the game to calculators and scientific strategies takes much of the human element (and fun) out of the game. To each his own though and if you guys get lots of enjoyment playing the game the way you do then that’s all that matters.

Well said and I agree wholeheartedly. As you said, if a particular strategy meets the eyeball test of looking favorable, I think it could be explained and without much actual combat rolling. Most people make their in-game strategic decisions based on a visually weighted blend of observation, rough calculation and experience… as you indicated.

[Afrikakorps]

Has anyone seen some succes or more experience with the Afrika Korps strategy? I have only played Axis once and it nearly worked but made some mistakes. Will try it definately when I am Axis again.

[Afrikakorps]

Having figured out my new Allied strategy The Russian Tide + The Bright Skies and played it two times, my father will be playing the Axis one more time where I can perfect my Allied play. After that, I am the Axis again, and I am looking forward playing this strategy.

My first and only game Russia did no retreat from its borders and I took the opportunity by invading Russia. All out on Novgorod failed horribly because of bad luck, but I still took the victory, unfortunately not through the Afrika Korps play but common strategy.

That is why I will be working on the Afrika Korps strategy for the Axis again, as I still think it has a lot of potential.

[Afrikakorps]

So working further on the target.

Take Caucasus, Leningrad, Stalingrad and Egypt in G5

Build major in Romania G1
Build med fleet in SZ100 G2
Italy takes Turkey I2
Germany start producing fast troops
Afrika Korps take Caucasus G3
Tropical Fleet takes Egypt G3
Afrika Korps takes Middle East/Stalingrad G4
Germany takes Leningrad G5

Collect +/- 100 IPC G5

Italy will be making 35-40 IPC I5
Japan will be making 70 IPC J5

Axis making +/- 200 IPC per turn

[Ichabod]

@Afrikakorps:

So working further on the target.

Take Caucasus, Leningrad, Stalingrad and Egypt in G5

Build major in Romania G1
Build med fleet in SZ100 G2
Italy takes Turkey I2
Germany start producing fast troops
Afrika Korps take Caucasus G3
Tropical Fleet takes Egypt G3
Afrika Korps takes Middle East/Stalingrad G4
Germany takes Leningrad G5

Collect +/- 100 IPC G5

Italy will be making 35-40 IPC I5
Japan will be making 70 IPC J5

Axis making +/- 200 IPC per turn

I don’t think this work for many reasons. Here are two examples; you might get Caucasus 1 turn, but it’s taken back immediately. Building a Romanian Major lets Russia spend extra money on expensive stuff like tanks and then a fleet on G2 is a huge advertisement to buy more tanks and move south. Italy might not have enough troops in place on I2 to get Turkey if the UK brought the right stuff into the UK1 med fight.

During WW2, when Germany launched Operation Blue (seizing Stalingrad for the initial purpose of it becoming a Logistics depot for future operations); some Generals wrote in their diaries wild fantasies of seizing the Caucasus oil fields and the middle east.

[Afrikakorps]

Italy can attack Turkey with all its bomber, 2 fighters, 2 tanks, 2 artillery and 2 infantry. You buy a transport I1 and keep it with the other fleet

Germany will attack Caucasus in G3 and hold it all turns after because it can concentrate more force there than Russia. Only way for Russia to at least give a fight is surrendering Leningrad, which is fine by me.

[DessertFox599]

Another advantage to doing afrika korps is that if your playing with ygh rules thats a vp right there.

Also i think japan should do a calcutta crush along with afrika korps. That way, uk cant send fighters from india into egypt, otherwise lose infia and/or the possibility  of taking india back

[Afrikakorps]

@DessertFox599:

Another advantage to doing afrika korps is that if your playing with ygh rules thats a vp right there.

Also i think japan should do a calcutta crush along with afrika korps. That way, uk cant send fighters from india into egypt, otherwise lose infia and/or the possibility  of taking india back

I agree, this is crucial. The Axis should focus on taking out the UK, however not by Sea Lion but by taking over India, Middle East + Africa.

[Afrikakorps]

Has anyonr tried it already?

[taamvan]

Your plan?  Yes, dave goes through Turkey to slay the middle east, from time to time.  The most direct path avoids this and just pours units into Russia but UK has a bastion in the ME with some relief and that’s what your cool plan was trying to lance

[Afrikakorps]

@taamvan:

Your plan?  Yes, dave goes through Turkey to slay the middle east, from time to time.   The most direct path avoids this and just pours units into Russia but UK has a bastion in the ME with some relief and that’s what your cool plan was trying to lance

Great to hear! Yes exactly! Good to know it has been used with succes.

Do you have by accident his battle logs he did this or short summaries of those games if it was against you on the board? In March going to be Allies for the last time, but hope to play as Axis several times after that.

[weddingsinger]

@taamvan:

Your plan?  Yes, dave goes through Turkey to slay the middle east, from time to time.   The most direct path avoids this and just pours units into Russia but UK has a bastion in the ME with some relief and that’s what your cool plan was trying to lance

I don’t get the Turkey thing… doesn’t that turn all the neutrals against you and cause more trouble than its worth?

[thespaceman]

I think both sides should see the neutrals as the enemy and aim to crush them if the opportunity arises.

If axis can get turkey spain portugal sweden. It cancels out the ipc from south america.

Turkey is a great way to gain access to the middle east. The other options are by sea or through rostov. If italy can open that door it makes life a lot easier for the axis.

If the allies are unprepared then axis can easily grab a stack of territories.

I think that Japan will have to go hard against Russia and germany still needs to go hard to at least to leningrad and or sevastopol so that the Russians dont go having it too easy.

I think that uk factory build in persia iraq and a us landing on morroco could cause further problems for this strategy.

Uk and russia could also team up against fin/swe/nor which would be costly and difficult if all of germany’s ships are in the med. I would probably keep the baltic fleet there and reinforce the northern attack on russia to keep that area strong and busy while the bulk of the axis europe forces go south.

[Afrikakorps]

@thespaceman:

I think both sides should see the neutrals as the enemy and aim to crush them if the opportunity arises.

If axis can get turkey spain portugal sweden. It cancels out the ipc from south america.

Turkey is a great way to gain access to the middle east. The other options are by sea or through rostov. If italy can open that door it makes life a lot easier for the axis.

If the allies are unprepared then axis can easily grab a stack of territories.

I think that Japan will have to go hard against Russia and germany still needs to go hard to at least to leningrad and or sevastopol so that the Russians dont go having it too easy.

I think that uk factory build in persia iraq and a us landing on morroco could cause further problems for this strategy.

Uk and russia could also team up against fin/swe/nor which would be costly and difficult if all of germany’s ships are in the med. I would probably keep the baltic fleet there and reinforce the northern attack on russia to keep that area strong and busy while the bulk of the axis europe forces go south.

Good analysis, I agree on them all. I think Japan should wait with declaring war, so JDOW3 or JDOW4 and crush China + Russia in the meantime, preparing for an Indian Crush in J4 or J5.

Keeping the Baltic Fleet in place is crucial, as otherwise indefesible against UK or Russia sneak attacks. However German fleet in the med also crucial. My first idea was build new fleet in G1, second idea was to build fleet in G2 Southern France but my current and I think best idea is to build German fleet in the Black Sea, so minor or major in Romania G1 (I will go major). If you are going to crush neutrality, why not optimize it?

German fleet builds in Black Sea allows fast acccess to Egypt, Middle East and Southern Russia, while far away from USA reach.

Ofcourse this all needs investment which means less/no troops in first two turns. I hope to cancel this out by using diplomacy to my advantage against the Allies.

[KaLeu]

@Afrikakorps:

I think Japan should wait with declaring war, so JDOW3 or JDOW4 and crush China + Russia in the meantime, preparing for an Indian Crush in J4 or J5.

That’s very late. UK Pacific will by then have taken some of the DEI islands and will have built a powerful infantry stack that will be hard for Japan to overcome. Anzac will also have some islands and will have every opportunity to harass Japan.

@Afrikakorps:

My first idea was build new fleet in G1, second idea was to build fleet in G2 Southern France but my current and I think best idea is to build German fleet in the Black Sea, so minor or major in Romania G1 (I will go major). If you are going to crush neutrality, why not optimize it?

German fleet builds in Black Sea allows fast access to Egypt, Middle East and Southern Russia, while far away from USA reach.

That would be a massive early investment, implying that you can’t really be threatening Sea Lion. The UK will notice that and spend its money in Africa and the Middle East, so you’ll encounter strong opposition there. And you can’t just build transports: the UK will have several planes available even after Taranto, and may fly in more from India. Also, the British Indian Ocean fleet may sail towards the Mediterranean, especially with the Japanese not having sunk the battleship.
Also, the neutral crush will provide the British with much-needed additional troops and income: Angola, Mozambique and Saudi Arabia will join the UK, Afghanistan may also, or join the Russians. And apart from what the British will do, you’ll need some units to actually take Turkey - and you’ll probably need to do something about Spain and Sweden too or you’ll be in trouble when the Allies land.

@Afrikakorps:

I hope to cancel this out by using diplomacy to my advantage against the Allies.

You may find that the Allies will continue that diplomacy “by other means”.  :-D

[farmboy]

One of the great things about this game is that even the Axis strategies that are optimal have costs. If the Axis focus on X they also create vulnerability Y that the Allies can exploit.  This goes both ways of course, but the Axis start with the initiative and so the Allies are more often in the position of reacting in the early game. The DOWs illustrate this well. A later Japanese DOW should generally improve the Axis chances in Europe but at the expense of Axis chances in the Pacific.

My skepticism of this approach is that I don’t think it accounts for how the allies might change up their approach in response. If the allies just go with the default and build infantry and retreat, this strategy will work better, but I think they may be able to break it if they change up too. Obviously without trying it this is a bit speculative but here would be some concerns.

So far I have liked a J3 DOW, but it is a signal to the allies that you are trying to win on the Europe map and gives the US more leeway to build in the Atlantic. It also may mean the other pacific allies can more safely put energy into the Mid East and Russia while still securing their own positions in the Pacific.

A G1 Romania factory tells the Soviets that you are focusing on them but it also usually means that they can block a G2 attack. They just build tanks in their forward factories and stack in Belarus and W Ukraine. A G2 navy build threatens the Caucasus but the lack of land units means that a G3 direct attack on Eastern Europe is also blocked.  And if you go for the Caucasus you would have a hard time both attacking the USSR and defending your starting territories in the 3rd turn. If the USSR is primarily thinking of your G5 or G6 attack on Moscow and only building inf, than they will have trouble countering. But in seeing that you are not building land units, the Soviets might switch to tanks, mechs and artillery knowing that you will have trouble defending against the counterattack and that territories in E Europe and scandinavia might be up for grabs.

As Kaleun points out, it also lets the Allies know that sea lion is less likely which allows the UK to build more aggressively.

Both sides should certainly consider attacking Neutrals but it is much more risky for the Axis since there are many more Neutrals that the Allies can easily reach. And an I2 attack on Turkey has lots of dangers. If it doesn’t ensure an early axis victory you have given the US  income, plus lots of inf (16 between Spain, Portugal and Latin America),  and a more direct route into  Europe. This could easily mean a secure Allied beachhead in Spain on their turn 3. And as KaLeun notes, it also strengthens the UK in Africa and the Mid East. The UK Pacific also gets 4 more inf and a direct route for its air to Moscow (and vice versa). If you decide to also attack the other Neutrals for their income you are also committing land units that are badly needed against the USSR.

Anyway, just some thoughts. The best Axis strategies (I think) are ones that are more open ended and which allow the Axis player several options depending on how the Allies counter. The allies are put in a position of having to prepare for several possibilities and have to play more cautiously as a result. This strategy really commits the Axis to a particular approach and seems to make it harder to adapt to changes in the Allied response.

[taamvan]

Good comment.  Its just like chess–as long as the Axis are calling the tune and the tempo, and you are only reacting to that, you will likely lose.  The VCs are set up in a sort of unfair way, so that the Axis have multiple paths to victory, and can very easily move between them,  whereas the Allies are always plugging holes in their dam as the pop up.

Its only when the Allies have a plan that constantly intervenes in this critical path before the Axis can attempt each step of it, that they even have a chance to win.  Once the Allies are planning and moving into or towards the most vulnerable area/city BEFORE the Axis appear to be headed that way, they can win and stymy the Axis.  Its amazing, there will be plenty of times where you have to move that one extra step forward or put your pieces at risk in order to even arrive at the battle at the correct time.  Any fewer risks or more conservative moves and the dance collapses.

I don’t personally consider taking Tokyo or Berlin to be realistic goals in a normal game against strong competition—you have to completely suffocate their income, and bomb them, and build for many turns to even have a chance of winning that way.

[thespaceman]

Hi all,

Been thinking about this some more and come up with the following ideas.

The problems with an Africa first strategy are as follows.

1. Vulnerability of Axis shipping in the med.

I think if the axis are going to go the Naval route they need to commit to a naval building program. By turn 5 they will need something like

5DD
1CR
1CV + 2FTR
5SS

A fleet such as this would be able to stand up to about 10 enemy planes. The problem I have always found is you can’t protect transports and new builds. So where do you build them to stop the new ships being bombed straight away. There are plenty of spots allies can base planes on including carriers. This limits the Italian navy to operations in the Adriatic Sea only. :-(

A solution would be to try and save up and buy them in chunks or to try and scare off allied planes somehow.

It would be fairly easy for the Germans to pop out 1-2 subs a turn from Marseilles each turn.  These subs could keep the Med clear or even chase away the allies from SZ91 if you can build enough, but again its the vulnerability of transports that is the problem.  I think a too heavy ship building program will leave Germany very weak on the ground.

2. IPCs.

If you do the math there are about 20 IPCs Italy and Germany can collect in places such as Turkey, Persia, Caucasus, etc, This does not include Egypt or Africa. The problem is that while Germany and Italy are fighting their way through the Middle east, Capturing these territories does not hurt Russia or UK. Most of the money comes from Neutrals or NOs. So while it will be great for the AXIS to boost their income, they really need to hurt the Allies harder.

Solutions.
I think a focus on getting a decent chunk of troops into the Syria/Iraq area by T4 opens a lot of doors for the Axis. I think Germany really needs to boost production by building factories in Turkey/Iraq or even Egypt. Tanks/Mec can be built in Germany but Inf/Art are needed too and they are too slow to walk. If this is combined with a focus on capturing the Russian Factories in Stalingrad and Ukraine, Germany can pump out enough to devour central Asia as well as push into Africa.

Building the Italian Navy has difficulties but if it can be done would safeguard the north African coast, as well as protecting Italy from invasion.