Please put this kind of stuff in the FAQ.
Transport Rules
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@WILD:
BTW Simon (and louprounge) the scrambling planes wouldn’t auto kill the tpts. The planes would have to roll, and hits would be applied to the tpt(s). As the attacker any surviving tpt(s) could retreat after the first round of combat.
Good point. Because there is a retreat option the auto kill doesn’t apply.
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@WILD:
No he had it right, re-read it.
He knows it is legal for the tpts to leave sz6, pick up the troops in Manchu (sz19) then amphib Kwangtung in the combat move phase (attack the Japanese). He’s saying you can’t do the move unless Kwangtung is axis owned (Japanese control it).
Well, the rules on transports are confusing. Mea culpa Simon!
Marsh
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@WILD:
On page# 13 and 14 in the 2nd edition rule book it gives you the choices you have when you start your turn in a hostile sz (because enemy build a warship). These would all be done in the combat phase.
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4) Leave the sz and conduct no combat.Are you sure this has to happen in combat move phase? Rulebook does not state that in this paragraph.
Because if it doesn’t, there won’t be any problem in moving them in NCM with loading cargo after the SZ was made friendly in combat phase. -
@Wicked:
@WILD:
On page# 13 and 14 in the 2nd edition rule book it gives you the choices you have when you start your turn in a hostile sz (because enemy build a warship). These would all be done in the combat phase.
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4) Leave the sz and conduct no combat.Are you sure this has to happen in combat move phase? Rulebook does not state that in this paragraph.
…:?
Well, actually it does:
@rulebook:
Sea Units Starting in Hostile Sea Zones
At the beginning of the Combat Move phase, …Pages 12-15 are all about combat move phase.
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@Wicked:
Because if it doesn’t, there won’t be any problem in moving them in NCM with loading cargo after the SZ was made friendly in combat phase.
You can certainly leave the transport in the same sz and conduct combat there. I don’t think you can then move the TT out of that SZ on the NCM phase though.
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You cannot. You can load the transport in the non-combat round after it “participates” in combat, but it cannot be moved or unloaded.
Marsh
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If you can’t move it why would you be able to load it?
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Rulebook P2E, Page 13 (Chapter CM): If you are sharing a sea zone with surface warships (not submarines and/or transports) belonging to a power with which you are at war, this situation requires you to do one of the following:
• Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat,
• Leave the sea zone, load units if desired, and conduct combat elsewhere,
• Leave the sea zone, load units, and return to the same sea zone to conduct combat (you can’t load units while in a hostile
sea zone), or
• Leave the sea zone and conduct no combat.
Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in combat, they can’t move or participate in the Noncombat Move phase of the turn.According to the rules, 1-3 is combat move+combat, but 4 would be a non combat move.
Not sure if it would have been emphasised that the leaving takes place exceptionally in CM phase. Also the last sentence would be clearer if it stated “In all of these cases, units can’t move or participate in the Noncombat Move phase of the turn.”Edit: I have to apologize, this exeption is actually printed on page 12:
However, units can’t end their movement in friendly spaces during the Combat Move phase except in four instances:
(…)
• Units moving from a hostile sea zone to escape combat as their combat move.
A sea zone into which defending air units may be scrambled in reaction to an amphibious assault (see “Scramble,” page 15) may be treated in the same way as a hostile sea zone for this purpose.
So scrambling fighters also block NCM this way.Page 22 (Chapter NCM):
Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase.
So this means having an enemy vessel in the seazone at the beginning of the turn does automatically mean battle activity for every naval unit in that SZ, including SSs. -
Essentially what happens is that the transports may elect to leave the sea zone, but they cannot load the troops in Korea before they leave SZ 6. (You cannot load troops from a hostile sea zone, Korea does not border any other sea zones, therefore, this is an old, but still effective anti-amphibious tactic spearheaded back in Classic 2nd edition around England when England would drop a submarine to protect itself from amphibs from W. Europe, etcetera)
You do not need to engage the defending destroyer - however, keep in mind, that destroyer is going to be in range of wherever you move those defenseless transports!
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The fix here it to take a massive risk and keep your troops on your transports. Building factories or dropping off in Korea and bridging across doesn’t work. America cant take Japan this way, or have a chance to bombard it, its based on several gamey rules but you either have to directly invade (not feasible) stand off or defeat his fleet (japan has an advantage for a long time) or find some other way to stymie japan (good idea) or defeat japan in detail (ideal).
Kamikazes can only hit DD CA CR BB and a lot of people are taking advantage of this limitation to attack with the 3 types of units that are immune to them.
If SZ 6 is undefended, Japan is deep trouble whether you can invade it or not…
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If you can’t move it why would you be able to load it?
Because the rules allow it?
Now, if you meant why WOULD you, imagine that the Allies are doing KJF and have placed a factory on Korea but cannot hold sea zone 6. You need to get troops off of Japan to fight back. On one turn, your fleet in sea zone 6 fights the US destroyer and then picks up troops. The US goes and places another destroyer. On the next turn, your fleet can vacate sea zone 6 (or just your loaded transports) and go and invade some other place, or they can offload into Korea as an amphibious assault to kill that pesky factory.
Marsh
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@Marshmallow:
You cannot. You can load the transport in the non-combat round after it “participates” in combat, but it cannot be moved or unloaded.
@Marshmallow:
If you can’t move it why would you be able to load it?
Because the rules allow it?
Sorry, this is wrong.
The “Sea Units Starting in Hostile Seazones”-Rules still apply.
And this is what the rules actually say:
@rulebook:
Sea Units Starting in Hostile Seazones
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Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in combat, they can’t move or participate in the Noncombat Move phase of the turn.So the transport that started in a hostile seazone and was part of the seabattle there, is neither allowed to move nor to participate in any other way in the Noncombat Move Phase.
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I believe you are correct sir. However, if as you pointed out the transport is not able to do anything during non-combat movement, that means this is correct:
@Marshmallow:
You can pick up the troops in Manchuria and land them in another territory if you don’t own the territory. If you do own the territory, you are SOL because you can’t do non-combat movement during the combat movement phase and moving during the combat movement phase means you can’t unload during the non-combat phase.
You can move the transport, pick up the troops, and move it to the sea zone off Kwangtung. However, if you own Kwangtung, you can’t land the troops there during combat movement (that would be doing non-combat movement during the combat movement phase) and you can’t offload them during non-combat movement either, as the transport would be “participating” in non-combat movement.
Marsh
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@Marshmallow:
I believe you are correct sir. However, if as you pointed out the transport is not able to do anything during non-combat movement, that means this is correct:
@Marshmallow:
You can pick up the troops in Manchuria and land them in another territory if you don’t own the territory. If you do own the territory, you are SOL because you can’t do non-combat movement during the combat movement phase and moving during the combat movement phase means you can’t unload during the non-combat phase.
You can move the transport, pick up the troops, and move it to the sea zone off Kwangtung. However, if you own Kwangtung, you can’t land the troops there during combat movement (that would be doing non-combat movement during the combat movement phase) and you can’t offload them during non-combat movement either, as the transport would be “participating” in non-combat movement.
You can move the transport (out of SZ6), pick up the troops (from Manchuria), and move it to the sea zone off Kwangtung only if you intend to unload the units into a hostile territory during the same combat move. (“- Leave the sea zone, load units if desired, and conduct combat elsewhere”).
If you load units during Combat Move you will have to unload them during the same Combat Move for an amphibious assault:
@rulebook:
If a transport loads land units during the Combat Move phase, it must offload those units to attack a hostile territory as part of an amphibious assault during the Conduct Combat phase, or it must retreat during the sea combat step of the amphibious assault sequence while attempting to do so.
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What P@nther said.
What I meant is why would you think that the rules allow it?
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Cause Wild Bill told me I was wrong the first time I posted what I posted and got me all confused.
Marsh
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haven’t played in a few years but about to start again. If I have TT in a friendly SZ, can I load the TT, and conduct an assault in the same combat phase? Can I load the TT in a friendly zone, and then off load then TT on friendly territory in the same noncombat phase?
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If I have TT in a friendly SZ, can I load the TT, and conduct an assault in the same combat phase?
Yes, if you load in the Combat Move Phase, you must conduct an amphibious assault in the same Combat Move Phase.
Can I load the TT in a friendly zone, and then off load then TT on friendly territory in the same noncombat phase?
Yes, provided the transport has not been involved in the Combat Move Phase or was part of a battle in the same turn.
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Think be a good place to add a Transport Rule Question… ( good thread here though ).
Rules say on pg *32 of Pacific 2nd Edition:
Carry Land Units: A transport can carry land units belonging to you or to friendly powers (provided both powers are at war).So if you are not at war yet, can you transport your own units? I assume yes you can.
BTW…Hey Cmdr Jennifer, nice seeing you again!
Bravehart
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Think be a good place to add a Transport Rule Question… ( good thread here though ).
Rules say on pg *32 of Pacific 2nd Edition:
Carry Land Units: A transport can carry land units belonging to you or to friendly powers (provided both powers are at war).So if you are not at war yet, can you transport your own units? I assume yes you can.
BravehartNot sure which power you are talking about, but to clarify the UK Pac and Anz are not neutral, they start at war with the Euro axis so they don’t have any movement restrictions on either map (they don’t have to be at war w/Japan).
While neutral the US and Russia can’t be on any territories that don’t belong to them, nor can other powers place units on US or Russia territories while they are neutral.
Russia doesn’t start with any transports, but could load and move them if they did on both maps while neutral.
The US can load and move their own transports on both maps while neutral, but have some restrictions. On the Euro map all US ships must end movement next to a US territory (war ships can go out to sz 102, but transports can’t). On the Pac side the US has more freedom of movement, but their ships can not end movement next to a Japanese territory.
BTW Japan isn’t allowed to have ships with in 2 szs of Western US, or Alaska while the US is neutral.
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