Was this game play tested AT ALL?

@General:

Personally… I would love the game to be historically viable… IE a true war in the pacific and Germany/Italy vs UK/USA.  I think shifting all NO’s for America into the pacific and beefing her up a bit to enable her to fight a war on 2 fronts would help to achieve this.  Just leave the France NO for the brits.  Improve China to deter the Japanese from attacking Russia, and finally beef up Italy so the European axis does not rely on Japan.

Reading the forums leaves me to believe that no one else cares about this but me and you. Everyone wants to bid and put it in Africa. If anything should change it is the pacific. This game is good but it could be great. If the game came OOB the way you just described there would be no one saying that there are flaws like they are now.

No, you are not correct as always. I will continue to claim there are flaws until I see some convoy zones on the map, some escort fighters during SBR, and I am allowed to attack and conquer neutral Sweden.

@Cmdr:

You know, there are a few house rules I’d like to play test myself.  Not all of them are mine, but here’s my list:

1)  SZ 16 is closed.  Only Russia may move into and out of this sea zone.
2)  SZ 5 is closed.  Only the nation that owns both NW Europe and Norway may move into and out of this sea zone. (no, America cannot own one and England the other.  One nation must own BOTH.)
3)  SZ 12/13 is treated like a canal.  You, or your ally(s) must own both Algeria and Gibraltar at the start of your round before passing through the Gibraltar straight.
4)  The Chinese Fighter is stationed in Sikang (the defacto Capitol of China.)
5)  Battleships have AA Guns (same rules as AA Guns, so 5 battleships in a sea zone still only get 1 AA shot per.  This rule is more of a method to negate the massive power of heavy bombers in naval warfare.  Now you can have Radar Battleships.)

Point 1 - we play this and I agree
Point 2&3 - Not that keen on either of these two 
point 4 - agree 100%, we also give china 2 extra infantry in the two areas behind the front line. We also add 1 infantry to egypt.
Point 5 - We are trialing this with cruisers having AA guns. Give cruisers an ability that contributes to the fleet more and makes cruisers a bit more useful. Battleships already have the take 2 hits thing, and destroyers counter subs. Cruisers form the fleet screening and AA support role. Makes for good combined arms strategies for fleets.

Just my 2 cents.

@Imperious:

Well to be clear I don’t feel this is the case, BUT i do prefer something more in terms of evolving the rules toward less abstraction. The Techs are kinda bogus as some of the choices of what was considered “technology” leave something to be desired ( e.g. advanced artillery is not really a TECHNOLOGY that was of importance in WW2). I am not saying it should be more historical, but less gamely about it or arbitrary.

I think the playtesting was great, and done by the best  but the final decisions were not in playtesters hands. I am quite sure with people like Kreighund, the games setup exposed any flaws and the obvious situations like in China must have been decided by the higher ups, which a minimal number of rules can fix.

for China let the Soviets play them which is BEFORE Japan and by coincidence also semi historical because the Chinese communists were supplied by Stalin. That should have been an optional rule. I bugged Larry to include all of his ‘cutting room floor’ ideas and make them as optional rules because it would have been of great benefit to others, but all we got was just 2 new ideas.

If you are playing 1942, it is still after the Japan…. so what would you do in 1942? have china go before japan in 1942 also?

China plays before japan in both 1941 and 42. Thats all you need. The only other thing is round up for infantry, so 3 spaces gets you 2 infantry, 5 gets you 3

Ithkrall:

So basically, you only like the ideas that hurt the axis without balancing them out?  Are you giving the axis a bid to compensate for all the negative hits they are taking from the rest?  China is going to be immensely harder to take.  Russia can all but desert Caucasus now because there’s no risk of double whammy.  Give up having an Italian fleet, the brits and yanks can bloody well wave at the shore batteries on Gibraltar and Morrocco because they can’t be used to stop them.  Etc.

No, you really have to close SZ 5/6 passage and SZ 12/13 passage with canal rules in order to rebalance the game.  This assumes you use the other rules listed of course.  (If you don’t use any of the house rules, the game’s perfectly balanced out of the box without any optional or house rules.  The optional and house rules just force the game into different scenarios which can be fun!)

I suppose we are doing that due to the high win percentage the Axis have had so far, we haven’t played as many games as some people on this site, so our Allied defence strategies haven’t reached maturity yet.

We are still in “Axis kicks butt” mode.  :-D

If we notice a trend in the reverse we may dial these changes back a bit, and look at other balencing mechanisms. But at the moment Axis are winning 75%

@Imperious:

China plays before japan in both 1941 and 42. Thats all you need. The only other thing is round up for infantry, so 3 spaces gets you 2 infantry, 5 gets you 3

China going first might be too powerful.  Not only do they get to move their guys to reinforce certain areas, but they also get 3 extra inf.  China going first is the same as a Chinese bid of 3 inf plus getting to move their guys around any way you like.  As much as I think AA50 with NOs is imbalanced in favor of the axis, this might be a bit much.

OK thats true.

new idea: they move before japan and play with the Soviets if in 1941, they place units in US turn.

Move and attack with Soviets or before Japan
Place new forces in USA turn

and people question why there is a need for continuing development of the line, like with AA42…

/Imperious leader

Why not just bid for China inf?  :?

@Cmdr:

You know, there are a few house rules I’d like to play test myself.  Not all of them are mine, but here’s my list:

1)  SZ 16 is closed.  Only Russia may move into and out of this sea zone.
2)  SZ 5 is closed.  Only the nation that owns both NW Europe and Norway may move into and out of this sea zone. (no, America cannot own one and England the other.  One nation must own BOTH.)
3)  SZ 12/13 is treated like a canal.  You, or your ally(s) must own both Algeria and Gibraltar at the start of your round before passing through the Gibraltar straight.
4)  The Chinese Fighter is stationed in Sikang (the defacto Capitol of China.)
5)  Battleships have AA Guns (same rules as AA Guns, so 5 battleships in a sea zone still only get 1 AA shot per.  This rule is more of a method to negate the massive power of heavy bombers in naval warfare.  Now you can have Radar Battleships.)

I have a whole set of revised rules as well, still working on beatification of the document and then I’ll gladly post them for critique and would love some play testing.  But those 5 seem just needed to make the game a bit more balanced.

SZ 12/13 should save the Italian fleet and allow Germany some leeway on their luftwaffe use in round 1.
SZ 5 gives Germany a realistic break from amphibious assault on Berlin until the Allies truly have the upper hand.
SZ 16 stops the unrealistic Italian suicide mission to knock down Russian defenders allowing Germany an easier assault before Russia can recover.
The move of the Chinese fighter at least gives China a chance to do something other than die.  Now they have a chance to fight back, which, I believe, was the original idea of giving them a fighter!
And of course, the battleships (as I mentioned) having AA ability helps restore the balance against Jet Fighters and Heavy Bombers a little.  Not massively, since in WWII the preferred method of sinking the enemy was through the use of aircraft, but at least enough that it’s no longer a bone headed idea to buy a BB.

Hi Jennifer thanks for the rules.  here are my thoughts on them…

1)  SZ 16 is closed.  Only Russia may move into and out of this sea zone.

I think this is a great rule, because currently the axis can Steamroll into Moscow using Italy as suicide fodder as you have stated.  It makes for a more interesting game for the Russian/Allied player.

2)  SZ 5 is closed.  Only the nation that owns both NW Europe and Norway may move into and out of this sea zone. (no, America cannot own one and England the other.  One nation must own BOTH.)

I don’t understand why allied powers can’t control both sides of this new canal in order to gain access to the sea zone… and practically I can’t see how I would explain the real world connotations of this rule to my playgroup.  “America wont let you in to the sea zone…”, “But why…? Damn Yanks!”  :wink:

3)  SZ 12/13 is treated like a canal.  You, or your ally(s) must own both Algeria and Gibraltar at the start of your round before passing through the Gibraltar straight.

I already play this rule and it is working well :)  Sometimes it forces troops to land in Africa… Which is good.

4)  The Chinese Fighter is stationed in Sikang (the defacto Capitol of China.)

Anything that makes china stronger is fine with me.

5)  Battleships have AA Guns (same rules as AA Guns, so 5 battleships in a sea zone still only get 1 AA shot per.  This rule is more of a method to negate the massive power of heavy bombers in naval warfare.  Now you can have Radar Battleships.)

I’d like to see cruisers with aa guns as someone posted in this thread also.

I still think India falls too easy and the Japanese will still just stomp over most of Asia without a fight.  Maybe a rule to allow china movement into Burma and India might hold of the Japanese for a while longer.

I don’t think china going first will overpower the allies in asia, I will repost if I get to playtest this (anyone else try it already?)
cruisers are already a better buy than BB’s with the offshore and reduced cost (at least they are bought more frequently than BB’s in my playgroup) so giving them AA ability, while historical, will further reduce the impact of the “big 'uns”. perhaps the radar tech could then apply to cruisers,BB’s as well? hmmm, that sounds a bit too nasty maybe a 1 with radar? forces allies to research for that tech to protect the fleets from bomber abuse. what about each cruiser, battleship gets one shot at 1 at one plane?
sz 16 should have been standard
heavy bomber roll two and pick one fixes the problem, pretty much guaranteed hit or heavy SBR dmg without being silly.
sz 5 any allies, just like other canals seems reasonable, it still protects Berlin for a while, but forces Germany to protect NWE instead of deadzoning it
sz 12/13 perhaps it is blocked if you control both but open otherwise.this allows Italy to capture the rock I1 (or later) it they want and only face british air
just some random thoughts

Why not just bid for China inf?

I prefer to solve things w/o bidding. Bidding is not solving any problem because the problem is not that China has too few pieces, its that she gets clobbered by Japan on J1.

@Imperious:

I prefer to solve things w/o bidding. Bidding is not solving any problem because the problem is not that China has too few pieces, its that she gets clobbered by Japan on J1.

Eeemm… maybe China gets clobbered by Japan on J1 because China has too few pieces. Bidding chinese infs can solve that problem. There are more problems with China, of course, but it’s good solve at least one of them. I don’t mind if it’s solved by bidding or by changing order of turns as you want

I’ve now played two games, and both times china didn’t fall untill J3 (Russian reinforcements), india never fell, and egypt fell on I2 (UK player put a IC in the congo instead of in SA) If I ever had problems with china, I’d enact a house rule allowing US to put a IC in china that would allow an extra punch.

Earlier on Jen was talkin about AA guns on battleships, I play with this rule and have been forever. It works well because we use strafing alot where fighters or bombers fly over and do one attack, and can’t be defended against unless an AA gun is in the territory.

I’ve found that it doesn’t really matter if the game is balanced to begin with at all, it depends on the PLAYER. a good player can turn a bad situation around, or exploit a good situation. If i’m playin against my friend Droste, we always cancel eachother out, kinda creatin a ww1esq front. my 2nd game of AA50, he was italy and germany and I was russia. my line held him back for 4 turns untill I finally ran out of troops. all along tho I SBR’d him out of existance, not the other way around. He ended up takin russia, but had to waste all the IPCs he got from me rebuilding all of his ICs

my point is: the game plays how you and your friends want it too, because it’s unbalanced from the start doesn’t mean people don’t make stupid mistakes you can exploit.

My fix would be….

Put 2 extra chinese infantry with the flying tigers to help it survive 1st round.

Put extra US DD at Hawaii. This will make it a juicer target and you are going to have to throw more than 2 fighters and a DD at it to kill it.

Put extra Cruiser at WUSA. This deters any attack here if you want to kill the BB and beefs up the post PH attack American navy to a reasonable level.

American NOs changed to only 2…(France and home territory NO deleted)
Receive 15 ipcs if Allies control 3 of the four following territories…Hawaii, Alaska, Midway, Wake island

Receive 5 ipcs if allies control the Phillipines

@Flying:

My fix would be….

Put 2 extra chinese infantry with the flying tigers to help it survive 1st round.

Put extra US DD at Hawaii. This will make it a juicer target and you are going to have to throw more than 2 fighters and a DD at it to kill it.

Put extra Cruiser at WUSA. This deters any attack here if you want to kill the BB and beefs up the post PH attack American navy to a reasonable level.

American NOs changed to only 2…(France and home territory NO deleted)
Receive 15 ipcs if Allies control 3 of the four following territories…Hawaii, Alaska, Midway, Wake island

Receive 5 ipcs if allies control the Phillipines

so a bid of $26 for the USA/China?!? seems a bit extreme

@critmonster:

@Flying:

My fix would be….

Put 2 extra chinese infantry with the flying tigers to help it survive 1st round.

Put extra US DD at Hawaii. This will make it a juicer target and you are going to have to throw more than 2 fighters and a DD at it to kill it.

Put extra Cruiser at WUSA. This deters any attack here if you want to kill the BB and beefs up the post PH attack American navy to a reasonable level.

American NOs changed to only 2…(France and home territory NO deleted)
Receive 15 ipcs if Allies control 3 of the four following territories…Hawaii, Alaska, Midway, Wake island

Receive 5 ipcs if allies control the Phillipines

so a bid of $26 for the USA/China?!? seems a bit extreme

Not a bid, a FIX. The US must fight in pacific or it isn’t WW2. You may as well call it the great european war as it stands now.

only if you want to see Japan roll over everything. The USA needs to engage and battle Japan in the Pacific or they just get to far out of hand. I do agree that NO’s need to be pacific focused (perhaps more lucrative for USA as well) and Japans NO needs to be Australia not India (which they would take anyway).
As far as your idea, I am not “shooting it down” so to speak,but how do you balance an extra $26 in allied units? Do you think no additional axis incentives are needed?