German Industrial Complexes

Another benefit of a FRA IC - you can pop naval units out in Z13.  You can use this to stop a UK invasion of Italy from Z12.  In the games that I have played so far, Italy is usually strong enough that it can hold off one attack but not a 1-2 punch.  Also, by blocking the UK, if the US decides to hit ITA, then both fleets are separate and ripe for an attack by the Luftwaffe (in either zone), or the US fleet by the carrier based fighters from the Jap fleet that is most likely hanging around Z34/Z35 (land in BLK/back in Z34).

@KindWinds:

@U-505:

I can’t see how the Norway IC is better than the Poland IC.

The Poland IC is automatically defended by infantry from Germany moving toward Russia and, as was said before, is one move closer to Russia.

The Norway IC is isolated and, considering the typical naval buildup by the UK, it must be defended by a significant number of units that are in no way a threat to anyone unless Russia or UK aren’t trading Finland and there are armor in Norway.

For the Axis, you want to be able to pile up your builds, not choose to isolate them. The Egypt IC is an exception because it can be supported by the Italians, which is why I have decided that it is best for the UK to counterattack Egypt if there is one German armor left and even sometimes when there are 2 armor. Lose the UK bomber to make sure you take it, too. Italy can retake Egypt and build an IC if it wants, just as long as Germany can’t. That move carries other benefits but that is for another thread.

The big problem with the poland IC is that it splits the defense of germany.  Now Germany has to defend both poland and Germany.  Any player would defend germany and that makes a huge gap in the supply lines to the Russian front.  By turn 2 the Germans are out numbered or at best on par with the soviets.  In games where I have used the poland IC Uk drops on Poland and blam not only did you lose an IC but the whole logistics of the russain front goes out the window.  I do like norway and will give that a try.  I have used Bulgaria.  The argument for Norway is sound.

Are you trying to say that it would be easier to defend the Norway IC than the Poland IC? I think the moral of the story is not that the Norway IC is better(it isn’t), it’s that you don’t defend the Poland IC adequately from Allied amphibious assaults.

And I don’t see how Germany can get away with not splitting their defenses to defend Poland. Poland is the lynchpin of the German Eastern front. It must be securely held for as long as possible to prevent Russia from taking it and the Allies from reinforcing it. It is the logical choice for an IC for that reason on top of the other reasons I’ve detailed.

There are also a few issues with a France IC that I would point out.

First, no matter what, the Allies ALWAYS build an IC in France when they finally secure it whether Germany builds an IC elsewhere or not. Building an IC in France not only provides them with the IPC savings of not building one but also gives them an extra turn of builds since they can eliminate the “build IC” step in: 1) take France 2) build IC 3) produce units.

Second, too many people are making assuptions about Germany being able to sustain maximum production against a KGF for a lengthy period of time. The France IC is overkill. Against a KGF, if Germany is earning enough money that even the Poland IC is overloaded for more than a few turns then the game is already won. More often than not, Germany earns a bunch of money in the first few turns but then starts to shrink and it quickly gets to the point where Germany has a hard enough time maximizing it’s production from the Germany IC let alone a second one. The ability to build 6 units in France versus 3 units in Poland is a negligible advantage at best.

1. The allies ALWAYS building an IC in France is a false statement.  If the UK takes over France (and secures it) it is only preferable to build an IC if there are major production problems, if not it can just ferry 8 units per turn into France with ease.

2. The point I was trying to make, is if you build the French IC, you have to assume you will be building at least 15 units per turn (or to really stretch it 14 units) or there is no point in trying it out, other than maybe some type of naval strat or you are used to super heavy bombardments by the allies.

3. IF the differences between building an IC in France and Poland is negligible, why not play optimisically and build it in France and hope for a few extra units?

4. For whatever reason if you want to go “Africa crazy” or “Fleet crazy” (due to the Italian fleet) France is your spot

5. As far as a march towards Russia, you must play NOT to lose any tanks (you will be building a few ARM/ART, just not in bulk) or air.  Remember, due to the stronger defense in France, your air units can now focus a lot more on the Russian theater, giving Germany a great offensive edge no matter what Russia buys.  If Russia buys 6 tanks, it will soon find out it is trading Russian Tanks for German inf.

6. This probably works best when Japan is going very heavy on the land instead of the Pacific.  More specifically heavy towards India.

4)This is just a strat for those who insist on an IC for Germany (which I seldom find a good idea)

I don’t think I have ever build an IC with Germany in AA50.
The biggest advantage of a need for more than one German factory, is the fact that Germany is making lots of money, and Russia is not, and hopefully for axis, a strong Germany and Italy means also a weak UK. This advantage of high income, is very powerful in itself, you don’t necessarily need to place 16/13 German units to win the game.

With axis, I always hope to hold Kalia, but this is mostly b/c of the extra money using NOs, not the IC, although almost all players who can keep Kalia with Germany buys 12 units, and place 2 in Kalia, but this is not the same as a need for Germany to build any more factories than the one it starts with.

Some other aspects; if allies can keep France secured, it’s usually game over for axis.
A navy strat with Germany is generally suboptimal, like it is in revised. If Germany can afford this in a dice game with no bids, it’s b/c axis are slightly favored.
If Germany can get all 3 NOs for several rnds, Japan should be reduced or allies looses the game.
Germany can’t keep an IC in Norway if allies don’t want it.

@Subotai:

I don’t think I have ever build an IC with Germany in AA50.
The biggest advantage of a need for more than one German factory, is the fact that Germany is making lots of money, and Russia is not, and hopefully for axis, a strong Germany and Italy means also a weak UK. This advantage of high income, is very powerful in itself, you don’t necessarily need to place 16/13 German units to win the game.

With axis, I always hope to hold Kalia, but this is mostly b/c of the extra money using NOs, not the IC, although almost all players who can keep Kalia with Germany buys 12 units, and place 2 in Kalia, but this is not the same as a need for Germany to build any more factories than the one it starts with.

Some other aspects; if allies can keep France secured, it’s usually game over for axis.
A navy strat with Germany is generally suboptimal, like it is in revised. If Germany can afford this in a dice game with no bids, it’s b/c axis are slightly favored.
If Germany can get all 3 NOs for several rnds, Japan should be reduced or allies looses the game.
Germany can’t keep an IC in Norway if allies don’t want it.

I tend to agree with this statement, but I think the argument is IF you build an IC for Germany where should it be.  Yes I think the Allies in a secured France usually means victory, don’t buy navy with Germany, etc.  But, if one insits on buying an IC for whatever reason what would you suggest and why?

@dondoolee:

if one insits on buying an IC for whatever reason what would you suggest and why?

What is your objective with Germany?

Turtle up and wait for Japan to win the game (again)?

Then I like France.  You can directly help italy with their fleet, you can drop inf right in France as needed, and the units you drop in Germany never go backwards to cover France… they march forward.

If you want to get inf closer to the Russian front, Hungary or Bulgaria might be a good choice.
This IC is not subject to the UK home fleet (which Poland might be).

I am not so sure about a Poland or Norway IC….

@axis_roll:

@dondoolee:

if one insits on buying an IC for whatever reason what would you suggest and why?

What is your objective with Germany?

Turtle up and wait for Japan to win the game (again)?

Then I like France.  You can directly help italy with their fleet, you can drop inf right in France as needed, and the units you drop in Germany never go backwards to cover France… they march forward.

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If you want to get inf closer to the Russian front, Hungary or Bulgaria might be a good choice.
This IC is not subject to the UK home fleet (which Poland might be).

I am not so sure about a Poland or Norway IC….

Yes, the turtle with Germany.  The French IC can actually accomplish that, at least in theory, better than any other method.  Also the potential to help Italy is once again nice in theory at least.

It’s generally not a good place for an IC in TTs worth less than 3. This might be different for Japan, but the IC in Norway can’t be held by Germany, so this means either France or Poland. Both France and Poland is very important for Germany, so if it’s lost Germany is greatly reduced.
I haven’t tried a German factory yet, there’s so many new and complex matters in AA50, but I think a G IC can be viable. At least it’s too soon to know for sure if a G IC is a good or a bad strategy.

So far the factory hasn’t proven itself to me as the best option, but it has shown itself capable of yeilding interesting results.  It seems like it can be used for odd variations.  I could also see the turtle turning into Japan pumping out a lot of planes and sending them to France while boring very predictable play would ensue.

@dondoolee:

So far the factory hasn’t proven itself to me as the best option, but it has shown itself capable of yeilding interesting results.  It seems like it can be used for odd variations.

Yes, Germany can help keep the italian navy alive in sz13, if the axis want to play a naval game in the med.

@dondoolee:

I could also see the turtle turning into Japan pumping out a lot of planes and sending them to France while boring very predictable play would ensue.

Yes, agreed, especially since Japan usually still has 8-9 left after J1.  They have plenty to spare.  Plus the game turn order really helps Germany in the sense that the Japanese ftrs can protect German thrusts before UK attacks (assuming Russia can not hit that same square first).

@axis_roll:

@dondoolee:

So far the factory hasn’t proven itself to me as the best option, but it has shown itself capable of yeilding interesting results.  It seems like it can be used for odd variations.

Yes, Germany can help keep the italian navy alive in sz13, if the axis want to play a naval game in the med.

@dondoolee:

I could also see the turtle turning into Japan pumping out a lot of planes and sending them to France while boring very predictable play would ensue.

Yes, agreed, especially since Japan usually still has 8-9 left after J1.  They have plenty to spare.  Plus the game turn order really helps Germany in the sense that the Japanese ftrs can protect German thrusts before UK attacks (assuming Russia can not hit that same square first).

I guess it is kind of the point for very boring predictable play when playing a turtle.  But even if Japan is down to 6 or 7 planes, its income is usually so high  and foreign resistance so easily dealt with, it can be building air support for Germany without batting an eye or missing a beat (barring maybe a KJF).

That is one nice thing about a Japan IC in FIC, bombers get to rome in 1 turn for some atlantic fleet sinking or London bombings  :-D

Although I would be careful of how many units that Japan sends to germany from her navy, as it is not at all uncommon for the US to drop a fleet on turn 3+ if the pacific is empty, esp if she has fighters to spare.

Re. ICs….I like them on G2 as part of a specific strategy that takes account of what the Allies have done.  It’s not always the best move to buy a factory.  That’s why I don’t like it G1, though I imagine I’ll try Norway sometime, which must be built G1.

The France/Poland debate is interesting–I need to test it out before weighing in.

I want to say it for a second time. Romania is a good place to build a German IC.

1. It is immune to non-Russia based SBR.
2. It allows to send troops to support those already there faster.
3. With the capture of Karelian IC and this one, Germany can produce 14 cheap land units a turn, which is helpful to devellop a better turtle if the Allies go KGF.

When I play Germany, I use this strategy half of the time and it works well.

i just finished a three game series of 42 where i was axis.  all three games i built an IC in Bulg/Romania.  won 2 out of 3.  IC in romania is nice to get some men to caucusus quicker, and i built a few transports, with italian fleet for def, to make africa a little easier and to give his US bombers something to do.  i agree totally with the romania IC.

I haven’t usually been building a German IC in my games, except occasionally in Egypt
(which I’m still not sure if it’s good or not), but what would you do on G2 if is is obvious that the Allies are going KJF?  - i.e. Russia stacking Buryatia, moving inf to Chinghai and inf and arm to Persia, UK IC in India, all US air units which can reach to Australia, and US spending all IPCs in a Pacific navy.

In this case, it seems that a German turn 2 IC would almost be a must, but where would the best location be?  It seems that France would be best.

@Bardoly:

I haven’t usually been building a German IC in my games, except occasionally in Egypt
(which I’m still not sure if it’s good or not), but what would you do on G2 if is is obvious that the Allies are going KJF?  - i.e. Russia stacking Buryatia, moving inf to Chinghai and inf and arm to Persia, UK IC in India, all US air units which can reach to Australia, and US spending all IPCs in a Pacific navy.

In this case, it seems that a German turn 2 IC would almost be a must, but where would the best location be?  It seems that France would be best.

If it was obvious there was a KJF going on I don’t know if I would consider France as my first choice.  I would think Poland, off the top of my head, because I can 1) still consider buying a navy in a KJF strat 2) most importantly it is closer to Russia, which I am guessing I want dead as quickly as possible.  If you think you can kill Russia quicker via a french IC then I would do it.  If Germany happened to own Egypt that would be something to consider as well, it can help w/ Italy, Japan, and pressure the Caucaus.