France or Italy

Definitely France, it pulls the Germans further from the eastern front.

In one of my games as Germany, I left the west completely open, with France going back and forth.  The problem was that the Allies would always loose more IPCs in units than they gained or denied me.

I say Italy, not simply because of the IC but of IPCs.  When you take Rome, you are not only denying those 6 IPCs it’s worth, but all IPCs held by Italy.  If Italy has taken all of Africa, you deny the Axis all of Africa when you take Rome.  You also collect any unused IPCs Italy happened to have at that time.  If you can hold Italy long enough so it misses a turn of production, you have dealt a severe blow to the Axis.  You also my build units their on the next tern, and your transports may be allocated somewhere else.

Still, the main problem is logistics.  Troops are harder to get from UK to Italy than from UK to France, but the same goes for Germany.

France is a tempting target, but assuming all other factors even, taking a capital seems to be a better use.  You deny Italy a build, and you take their income.  If they can’t immediately reclaim Italy, you can start building there.

Two times i captured Italy with allies, it didn’t help me much, I lost both games. I did not hold Italy for more than one rnd though. Another game I lost Italy for 2 rnds before I took it back with Germany. I won that game :-P

In two of those 3 games, it was NOs on and no bid to allies  :roll:

Taking Italy is more than getting the IPCs, the VC and the loot from Italy, it’s preventing Italy from building new units.  That’s what tips the scale for me.

Of course, this assumes that Italy/Germany has equal ability to liberate France or England and that the Allies have the same odds of success in both of those territories.

if germany are finding the eastern front a challenge, the obvious choice would be to attack at france with the u.k. and the u.s.
however if germany have load’s of I.P.C. and can easily fend off the allied attack i would attack italy capture the I.C. and start to build units there to drive toward the ultimate goal of capturing germany and knocking germany out of the game,
the I.C. at italy is tempting, especially for the u.s. because when captured the u.s. would have a I.C. at europe,
france is worth 16 I.P.C. to the allies, and a I.P.C. hungry allied player can build a mighty force if france is captured,
germany never has enough I.P.C. to build a fleet, and the italian fleet could be a deterrant to the allied attack at italy,
however, with the capture of france, all that extra I.P.C. flying around would leave germany as easy picking’s for the allies

If your going to lose Italy next turn I see no point in sending all of my ships out of place.  Even if I had the option to take and hold I would still take France for the easier movement PLUS you get to threaten both Germany and Italy after that.  Also very I think it’s very important that you are sending the Axis one space further west when you invade France, which is one space further away from Russia and that is a very very encouraging thing for the Allies.

Sending forces in the Med w/o being able to do game breaking damage seems like it would usually end badly. Chances are you may even end up having to face a pointless navel battle with a potentially nasty Italian fleet too, so If either Germany or Italy built airplains your convoy may be weak enough for them to hit you.  Heck, I would rather invade Norway than Italy.

I almost always play no NOs but I think it would be the same either way.

@dondoolee:

If your going to lose Italy next turn I see no point in sending all of my ships out of place.  Even if I had the option to take and hold I would still take France for the easier movement PLUS you get to threaten both Germany and Italy after that.  Also very I think it’s very important that you are sending the Axis one space further west when you invade France, which is one space further away from Russia and that is a very very encouraging thing for the Allies.

Sending forces in the Med w/o being able to do game breaking damage seems like it would usually end badly. Chances are you may even end up having to face a pointless navel battle with a potentially nasty Italian fleet too, so If either Germany or Italy built airplains your convoy may be weak enough for them to hit you.  Heck, I would rather invade Norway than Italy.

I almost always play no NOs but I think it would be the same either way.

Heck yah!  :evil: Norway all the way!

Seriously, though, if you’re going to take either Italy of France, don’t be silly enough to do it if you can’t hold either one.  That’s where logistics come in.  It’s always hard for the US to send troops anywhere, and the UK often looses a lot of IPCs and can’t afford to send waves of troops into France.  This isn’t WWI, you know.

“I don’t like paying for the same real estate twice.”-George C. Scott in “Patton”

Really, the norther rout via Norway and Finland (tee hee, Finway :lol:) is the best rout.  Germany can’t stop it, while it can stop an invasion of France or Italy.  Logistics simply favor the Allies.  Also, if you’re playing with the old Lend Lease NA along with the new NOs, sending US and UK troops into USSR won’t deny it bonus money.  :-D

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Seriously, though, if you’re going to take either Italy of France, don’t be silly enough to do it if you can’t hold either one.

Really, the norther rout via Norway and Finland (tee hee, Finway :lol:) is the best rout.

Assuming NOs, I disagree.  Taking France for just one turn grants UK an additional 11 IPC and, if Italy doesn’t retake it, an additional 5 IPC for the US.  This helps the UK a lot, since the UK can then use that additional money to build more land units, threatening the same or a different invasion again on the following turn, etc.  Also, Germany and/or Italy is going to have to retake France, thus depriving either the eastern front or Africa of those units.  If the UK/US can force Germany to keep most of its new builds at home for a few turns, the Allies have basically won the game if Japan isn’t huge yet, since the Red Army will just steamroll west if left to their own devices, including Finland/Norway.  In fact, just the presence of a large number of protected transports in the Atlantic is enough to start slowing the German advance since they have to start spreading themselves thin defending everything - they dare not let the Allies into France, even for a turn, unless they have to.  Once they start trading France, that’s usually the beginning of the end for Germany.

@cymerdown:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Seriously, though, if you’re going to take either Italy of France, don’t be silly enough to do it if you can’t hold either one.

Really, the norther rout via Norway and Finland (tee hee, Finway :lol:) is the best rout.

Assuming NOs, I disagree.  Taking France for just one turn grants UK an additional 11 IPC and, if Italy doesn’t retake it, an additional 5 IPC for the US.  This helps the UK a lot, since the UK can then use that additional money to build more land units, threatening the same or a different invasion again on the following turn, etc.  Also, Germany and/or Italy is going to have to retake France, thus depriving either the eastern front or Africa of those units.  If the UK/US can force Germany to keep most of its new builds at home for a few turns, the Allies have basically won the game if Japan isn’t huge yet, since the Red Army will just steamroll west if left to their own devices, including Finland/Norway.  In fact, just the presence of a large number of protected transports in the Atlantic is enough to start slowing the German advance since they have to start spreading themselves thin defending everything - they dare not let the Allies into France, even for a turn, unless they have to.  Once they start trading France, that’s usually the beginning of the end for Germany.

Yes, but you also have to factor in the cost in lost units per side during combat.  If it all ends with a net gain, than I guess it’s OK, but if Germany looses, less IPCs worth in units than you in the battle, is that extra 11 worth it?  Maybe.

I can think of very few reasons why one should ever gun directly for Italy with a navel assault, if you do something like that it has to be a game breaker or an act of desperation.  Even in a no NO game France is by far the more attractive target. If Germany (and maybe even Ita) really have Russia in a pickle I would probably rather want the Allies to take and hold Italy, then take and hold France, as Italy isn’t directly next to the German border, which may give the Germans enough breathing room to knock out Russia.  You at least have a better chance of not getting shellacked by the allies for 1 more turn than with france which is directly next to you plus you would have to deal with all the transported troops from the UK.  This is assuming Germany is making more than Italy and the game isn’t that flukey.

Maybe I haven’t played enough to fully understand the discussion….  But doesn’t Italy have a pre-existing factory?  Shouldn’t capturing it be a priority?

@Zhukov44:

Maybe I haven’t played enough to fully understand the discussion….  But doesn’t Italy have a pre-existing factory?  Shouldn’t capturing it be a priority?

For me it just has to do with the logistics and flexability of the whole thing, Italy can turn into a logistical nightmare.  On top of that it is too remote to be a prime target for me.  On top of that, it is fairly easy to neuter w/o much effort.

Even w/o it’s fleet, Italy can still cover France.  It can also support Germany vs Moscow.  9 IPCs still equals 3 inf each turn to sent to Ukraine.  I wouldn’t call that “neutering”, per say (if u must use that term).

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Even w/o it’s fleet, Italy can still cover France.  It can also support Germany vs Moscow.  9 IPCs still equals 3 inf each turn to sent to Ukraine.  I wouldn’t call that “neutering”, per say (if u must use that term).

Then bomb it.

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Even w/o it’s fleet, Italy can still cover France.  It can also support Germany vs Moscow.  9 IPCs still equals 3 inf each turn to sent to Ukraine.  I wouldn’t call that “neutering”, per say (if u must use that term).

For the purpose of this post any form of the word neuter will be replaced with cripple :wink::

Destroying the navy is considered crippling Italy because in many games North Africa is where most of of  Italy’s fighting is done, and without a Navy they cannot get troops to their front, which means that they are crippled

@dondoolee:

@Zhukov44:

Maybe I haven’t played enough to fully understand the discussion….  But doesn’t Italy have a pre-existing factory?  Shouldn’t capturing it be a priority?

For me it just has to do with the logistics and flexability of the whole thing, Italy can turn into a logistical nightmare.  On top of that it is too remote to be a prime target for me.  On top of that, it is fairly easy to neuter w/o much effort.

Yes, I’m starting to realize that if Germany has a lot of planes it will be tough to get an offensive going.  But….if USA can take and hold the Italy factory (and Germany can’t really liberate it unless they have a stack on France)…then isn’t Germany doomed?

Italy is to remote and too much of a hassel to put it in ones head to KIF.  On top of which a staging ground up north threatens France, Germany, and other valuable land, while also being able to re enforce Russia if they are in a picke.  All this can be done without really moving your fleet and being able to re enforce quicker.  After you take France, which is much easier to hold and re enforce, you simultaneously threaten both Italy and Germany.

On top of that, Italy can put up a suprisingly stiff resistance if you gun straight for it, not good when re enforcing troops there is difficult (as opposed to re enforcing the UK for a French attack).

Anyone else think it’s funny that, according to what we’re saying here, the Allies did the wrong thing by invading Italy before France?

I’m actually considering breaking Italy up into 2 pieces, making it harder to defend, and allowing the Allies to “move up the boot”

@Zhukov44:

@dondoolee:

@Zhukov44:

Maybe I haven’t played enough to fully understand the discussion….  But doesn’t Italy have a pre-existing factory?  Shouldn’t capturing it be a priority?

For me it just has to do with the logistics and flexability of the whole thing, Italy can turn into a logistical nightmare.  On top of that it is too remote to be a prime target for me.  On top of that, it is fairly easy to neuter w/o much effort.

Yes, I’m starting to realize that if Germany has a lot of planes it will be tough to get an offensive going.  But….if USA can take and hold the Italy factory (and Germany can’t really liberate it unless they have a stack on France)…then isn’t Germany doomed?

If the Allies can take and hold France I think that signals the death knell for Germany as well.  The thing is, France is a lot easier to take usually.