France or Italy

[bugoo]

One thing I’ve been wondering about, if given the opportunity, would you as allies rather capture Italy or France, assuming you would lose them next turn, or also if you could hold them.  I ask this because I see/hear people talk about first taking Italy when focusing on KGF.

As far as IPCs go, France and Italy are both worth 6.  France as an NO gives an extra 5 IPCs to the UK, and the US, and is also part of a German NO and an Italian NO.  Italy’s capture will also net you there IPCs, which if you can take Italy will probably be around 10ish.  If you take France as the UK Italy can liberate it, but the US can take it again, that nets you another 6, same with Italy however if Germany liberates and UK retakes.  The UK can get units into France directly and the US can easily bridge units there as well out of range of some of the German air force as well as the UK can directly reinforce the fleet.  Italy is difficult to bridge to.  If you can only take it for one round I would honestly probably take France as you can probably continue to trade it every round.  If you can hold it a round however, Italy’s factory would be pretty nice.  Another consideration is Italy always has an AA gun, and if you take Italy typically Germany can liberate from France anyway, whereas liberating France would be done directly with the units in Germany.  While in France you can threaten both Italy and Germany, in Italy you only threaten France directly.  Transports assaulting France are within range of Germany, where as when hitting Italy there within range of almost nothing.

In all honesty given the choice I think I would prefer to focus on taking France first unless Italy was wide open.  Thoughts?

[Telamon]

I think you’re right that France is the juicier option for all the reasons you describe, plus its closer to UK and US (and transport is time is money).

But all that is by the by; you go for whichever is less defended.  One of the great strengths of the fleet sitting there with men ready to land is that they can land anywhere.  So the Axis have to make the choice, or spread themselves thin.  Then you grab the low hanging fruit.

8-)

[wally]

It really depends on the situation. If the Germans have a stack of ten infantry on france, but the italians only have a couple of tanks and infantry, you hit Italy. taking a country’s capital is always a devastating blow. It means that Italy (or Germany) must retake their capital but won’t be able to buy any units, effectively eliminating them for a round of play.

[LuckyDay]

Many good reasons to go after both have been mentioned.  I personally like Italy as the option because it will deny Italy at least 1 turn of building units.  If I am able trading this territory, it is 2 spaces from Germany (yes, 1 from France, but 2 from new builds) and I feel harder for Germany to liberate.  As was mentioned, France can be hit from both Axis capitals in Europe.

[TimTheEnchanter]

As with most things, it depends on board position. It is much more difficult to set things up for continuous followup at italy.  But if you are set up to follow your landing up with another attack(e.g., you have a second fleet that can safely feed troops to algeria while your boats go to sz14), then italy is the obvious choice.  If they retake it, it just means you steal their income again next turn.  The other thing to consider, if you have enough forces to feed algeria next turn, that means you could bring double the forces to france.  If taking france means killing twice as many axis troops, that has its obvious advantages as well.  Or it’s possible that retaking italy weakens france enough that you can take it the next round, etc.

On the other hand, if it’s a one-time shot that takes allied boats out of position for a turn, then there are significant opportunity costs that counter the benefit of collecting italian income and keeping them from producing their units for a turn (especially if you’ve kicked them out of africa and they’re only making ~10) and you might be better off ‘settling’ for the 10 ipcs from the French NOs.  Plus landing in france from sz7 means you can directly threaten germany, the next turn, etc.

[bbrett3]

Definitely France, it pulls the Germans further from the eastern front.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

In one of my games as Germany, I left the west completely open, with France going back and forth.  The problem was that the Allies would always loose more IPCs in units than they gained or denied me.

I say Italy, not simply because of the IC but of IPCs.  When you take Rome, you are not only denying those 6 IPCs it’s worth, but all IPCs held by Italy.  If Italy has taken all of Africa, you deny the Axis all of Africa when you take Rome.  You also collect any unused IPCs Italy happened to have at that time.  If you can hold Italy long enough so it misses a turn of production, you have dealt a severe blow to the Axis.  You also my build units their on the next tern, and your transports may be allocated somewhere else.

Still, the main problem is logistics.  Troops are harder to get from UK to Italy than from UK to France, but the same goes for Germany.

[Blaarg]

France is a tempting target, but assuming all other factors even, taking a capital seems to be a better use.  You deny Italy a build, and you take their income.  If they can’t immediately reclaim Italy, you can start building there.

[Lucifer]

Two times i captured Italy with allies, it didn’t help me much, I lost both games. I did not hold Italy for more than one rnd though. Another game I lost Italy for 2 rnds before I took it back with Germany. I won that game :-P

In two of those 3 games, it was NOs on and no bid to allies  :roll:

[Jennifer]

Taking Italy is more than getting the IPCs, the VC and the loot from Italy, it’s preventing Italy from building new units.  That’s what tips the scale for me.

Of course, this assumes that Italy/Germany has equal ability to liberate France or England and that the Allies have the same odds of success in both of those territories.

[d142]

if germany are finding the eastern front a challenge, the obvious choice would be to attack at france with the u.k. and the u.s.
however if germany have load’s of I.P.C. and can easily fend off the allied attack i would attack italy capture the I.C. and start to build units there to drive toward the ultimate goal of capturing germany and knocking germany out of the game,
the I.C. at italy is tempting, especially for the u.s. because when captured the u.s. would have a I.C. at europe,
france is worth 16 I.P.C. to the allies, and a I.P.C. hungry allied player can build a mighty force if france is captured,
germany never has enough I.P.C. to build a fleet, and the italian fleet could be a deterrant to the allied attack at italy,
however, with the capture of france, all that extra I.P.C. flying around would leave germany as easy picking’s for the allies

[dondoolee]

If your going to lose Italy next turn I see no point in sending all of my ships out of place.  Even if I had the option to take and hold I would still take France for the easier movement PLUS you get to threaten both Germany and Italy after that.  Also very I think it’s very important that you are sending the Axis one space further west when you invade France, which is one space further away from Russia and that is a very very encouraging thing for the Allies.

Sending forces in the Med w/o being able to do game breaking damage seems like it would usually end badly. Chances are you may even end up having to face a pointless navel battle with a potentially nasty Italian fleet too, so If either Germany or Italy built airplains your convoy may be weak enough for them to hit you.  Heck, I would rather invade Norway than Italy.

I almost always play no NOs but I think it would be the same either way.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

@dondoolee:

If your going to lose Italy next turn I see no point in sending all of my ships out of place.  Even if I had the option to take and hold I would still take France for the easier movement PLUS you get to threaten both Germany and Italy after that.  Also very I think it’s very important that you are sending the Axis one space further west when you invade France, which is one space further away from Russia and that is a very very encouraging thing for the Allies.

Sending forces in the Med w/o being able to do game breaking damage seems like it would usually end badly. Chances are you may even end up having to face a pointless navel battle with a potentially nasty Italian fleet too, so If either Germany or Italy built airplains your convoy may be weak enough for them to hit you.  Heck, I would rather invade Norway than Italy.

I almost always play no NOs but I think it would be the same either way.

Heck yah!  :evil: Norway all the way!

Seriously, though, if you’re going to take either Italy of France, don’t be silly enough to do it if you can’t hold either one.  That’s where logistics come in.  It’s always hard for the US to send troops anywhere, and the UK often looses a lot of IPCs and can’t afford to send waves of troops into France.  This isn’t WWI, you know.

“I don’t like paying for the same real estate twice.”-George C. Scott in “Patton”

Really, the norther rout via Norway and Finland (tee hee, Finway :lol:) is the best rout.  Germany can’t stop it, while it can stop an invasion of France or Italy.  Logistics simply favor the Allies.  Also, if you’re playing with the old Lend Lease NA along with the new NOs, sending US and UK troops into USSR won’t deny it bonus money.  :-D

[cymerdown]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Seriously, though, if you’re going to take either Italy of France, don’t be silly enough to do it if you can’t hold either one.

Really, the norther rout via Norway and Finland (tee hee, Finway :lol:) is the best rout.

Assuming NOs, I disagree.  Taking France for just one turn grants UK an additional 11 IPC and, if Italy doesn’t retake it, an additional 5 IPC for the US.  This helps the UK a lot, since the UK can then use that additional money to build more land units, threatening the same or a different invasion again on the following turn, etc.  Also, Germany and/or Italy is going to have to retake France, thus depriving either the eastern front or Africa of those units.  If the UK/US can force Germany to keep most of its new builds at home for a few turns, the Allies have basically won the game if Japan isn’t huge yet, since the Red Army will just steamroll west if left to their own devices, including Finland/Norway.  In fact, just the presence of a large number of protected transports in the Atlantic is enough to start slowing the German advance since they have to start spreading themselves thin defending everything - they dare not let the Allies into France, even for a turn, unless they have to.  Once they start trading France, that’s usually the beginning of the end for Germany.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

@cymerdown:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Seriously, though, if you’re going to take either Italy of France, don’t be silly enough to do it if you can’t hold either one.

Really, the norther rout via Norway and Finland (tee hee, Finway :lol:) is the best rout.

Assuming NOs, I disagree.  Taking France for just one turn grants UK an additional 11 IPC and, if Italy doesn’t retake it, an additional 5 IPC for the US.  This helps the UK a lot, since the UK can then use that additional money to build more land units, threatening the same or a different invasion again on the following turn, etc.  Also, Germany and/or Italy is going to have to retake France, thus depriving either the eastern front or Africa of those units.  If the UK/US can force Germany to keep most of its new builds at home for a few turns, the Allies have basically won the game if Japan isn’t huge yet, since the Red Army will just steamroll west if left to their own devices, including Finland/Norway.  In fact, just the presence of a large number of protected transports in the Atlantic is enough to start slowing the German advance since they have to start spreading themselves thin defending everything - they dare not let the Allies into France, even for a turn, unless they have to.  Once they start trading France, that’s usually the beginning of the end for Germany.

Yes, but you also have to factor in the cost in lost units per side during combat.  If it all ends with a net gain, than I guess it’s OK, but if Germany looses, less IPCs worth in units than you in the battle, is that extra 11 worth it?  Maybe.

[dondoolee]

I can think of very few reasons why one should ever gun directly for Italy with a navel assault, if you do something like that it has to be a game breaker or an act of desperation.  Even in a no NO game France is by far the more attractive target. If Germany (and maybe even Ita) really have Russia in a pickle I would probably rather want the Allies to take and hold Italy, then take and hold France, as Italy isn’t directly next to the German border, which may give the Germans enough breathing room to knock out Russia.  You at least have a better chance of not getting shellacked by the allies for 1 more turn than with france which is directly next to you plus you would have to deal with all the transported troops from the UK.  This is assuming Germany is making more than Italy and the game isn’t that flukey.

[Zhukov44]

Maybe I haven’t played enough to fully understand the discussion….  But doesn’t Italy have a pre-existing factory?  Shouldn’t capturing it be a priority?

[dondoolee]

@Zhukov44:

Maybe I haven’t played enough to fully understand the discussion….  But doesn’t Italy have a pre-existing factory?  Shouldn’t capturing it be a priority?

For me it just has to do with the logistics and flexability of the whole thing, Italy can turn into a logistical nightmare.  On top of that it is too remote to be a prime target for me.  On top of that, it is fairly easy to neuter w/o much effort.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

Even w/o it’s fleet, Italy can still cover France.  It can also support Germany vs Moscow.  9 IPCs still equals 3 inf each turn to sent to Ukraine.  I wouldn’t call that “neutering”, per say (if u must use that term).

[dondoolee]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Even w/o it’s fleet, Italy can still cover France.  It can also support Germany vs Moscow.  9 IPCs still equals 3 inf each turn to sent to Ukraine.  I wouldn’t call that “neutering”, per say (if u must use that term).

Then bomb it.