Germany and Italy should not take Normandy until after Moscow falls

@Herr:

@oysteilo:

@Herr:

Isn’t that a bit slow?

I1: take Bulgaria
I2: units move to Romania
I3: can-opening into Bessarabia and/or Eastern Poland

So in that scenario, the German followup will be as late as G4.

I think the important can-opening happens around (I4), I5, I6 in order to break through into volgograd and caucasus and later to threaten middle east by italy taking NW persia

The idea of can-opening is, to take the territory with Italy in order to allow Germany, and especially the German planes, to reinforce it against a Russian counterstrike. So I don’t think that any Italian drive to the south servers the purpose of can-opening because Russia is unlikely to have sufficient forces to strike back at either Volgograd or the Caucasus anyway in case the Germans would have taken it without Italian assistance. Which doesn’t imply that going that way is bad for Italy because there’s a lot of bonus to be had. But if you’re talking can-opening, then I’d say Bryansk on I5 would be the way to go.

@aequitas:

With Bulgaria, Yugo and Greece given to Italy, what punch will Germany have?
Any Allied player will be happy to harvest Italy…

Agreed. I’d much rather give Bulgaria to Germany to assimilate those troops and add some punch to the German drive into Russia.

I might be using it idfferent than you. The other idea of canopening is to force a russian retreat.
let say you stand in rostov with a german and italian stack, with at least 40 german tank+mech and 5-7 italian units., and 7+ italians. Then ussr has to retreat to moscow. if he stacks byransk, you can take tambov with the italians, and moscow falls on the german turn. Since ussr has to retreat, you get to take cauc, stalingrad and begin taking the middle east immediately.

@AlphaAeffchen:

@ Kreuzfeld. You are totally right but the problem is if i do this buys for UK they can do nothing for many rounds in Europe. Italy gets very strong in the med. The USA have to fight Japan. The allies in Europe  are getting a problem because UK is isolatet because of only inf buy and USA has to Focus on Japan (but you are right i have to do this buy for UK).

In the scenario I made, US will only have to buy 2 bombers on US 1 (in most scenarios) and move 3 of the US planes to canada. They are capable of going towards Japan if Germany don’t buy the TTs in G2.

If germany doen’t buy 3 TTs on G1 (and save their money instead), I am doing taronto, and buy 6 inf and 1 ftr and lose no time in the Med. If they do buy 7 art on G1, I am buying a mIC in egypt and 5 inf in UK.

The only “loosing investments” UK has is : 3 inf instead of ftr on UK1, no taronto on UK 1 (I think 3 useless german transports might be too steep a price for germany to pay for this result).

The other losing investment is the canadian airbase and a few allied TTs on UK2/US2, however, they are more than offsett by the 9 german TTs that has to be bought to force me to do it.

The advantage I get for this plan is that no german should try for the sealion after US1, then that is just a lost game if they buy the 9 TTs. This means that I can (if I want to) send everything US builds against japan, including US turn 1 build. I am still taking Persia on UK1, so I can build the mIC on UK2 and shut down the middle east as fast as possible. My favourite way of playing the UK is to have 1 mIC in each of iran, iraq and egypt, and to use them to buy volumes of inf and mechs for a giant uk landarmy that can reach where i want them

I still think the game is favouring the axis, all I was commenting on was that in a J1, it is so much cheaper for the allied to prevent the sealion, so it will never happen.

@taamvan:

1.  buy infantry.   Help Germany defend.  Defend yourself so Germany doesn’t have to.   Warding the allies off the Atlantic wall is very easy if you don’t waste Italy’s troops or money.
2.  buy mechs and tanks.  Have them follow Germany into Russia.  At a key moment, Italy will be able to rush forwards and kill the screen protecting a key Russian counterattack force, which Germany can then blitzkrieg through.
3.  fly your bomber all the way from Romania to china.   from China, have it land on Japan.   Use this and/or German bombers to kill the screens that the US is using to protect their key offensive fleet.
4.  don’t worry about Africa.   Even with your full navy, it is very difficult to either leave the med or defend it against a determined attack.   Even with your full African army, you will need very strong support to defeat the UK, unless they make a stupid mistake
5.  if you intend to take the extra assets for Italy (southern france, Bulgaria, etc.) do it with a plan in mind.  It is much easier for Germany to use this money to strong effect.   
6.  take Gibraltar, but you’re not going to hold it.  You may need it as a base for either Germany or Italy, or just to slow the allies down/get your bonus.   Use a destroyer or a cruiser to block the allies entry into the med from SZ92
7. don’t lose your airforce.  it can go all sorts of different directions to follow up on Germany.  It can hang in western Germany and do Italian sea lion.  It can attack Russia with your mobile force
8.  you can attack UK with Italy.   It helps if you have 2 or more transports;  Sea Lion is far more effective if you attack with 2 (or even 3 lol) Axis powers one after another.   It may still not be a winner, but it makes it far easier for Germany to win even if you lose everything with Italy.
9.  Africa is a distraction.  Egypt is a distraction.   Your bonuses are not keepable and are largely, distractions.  Don’t mess with 1 IPC territories.  win the game.   
10.  Syria and Bryansk/Belarus are better goals than any NO or abstract victory (high income alone).

Thanks for this sound advice!

I think the point is, all three of my opinions infer that Germany is waiting until at least round 3 to declare war on Russia.  Personally, I see no good reason to declare war on them before then anyway and, personally, I prefer to have Italy declare war on Round 3 with Germany maybe not even declaring war on Round 4…that way Italy can take the road and Germany can reinforce it.  That allows Germany to collect the NO for Russia and move towards Moscow.

No neither is gamey in my book, it’s part of the game that can lead to a victory (should be a 1 or 2 trick pony). Once your group see’s these moves, it’s up to your opponent to do something about it. Our group see’s a couple Italians at the Russian front often, which can help the Germans to push deeper into Russia. So if this is happening the Russians might need to picket with 2-3 inf in key territories, so you have a chance to kill off the Italian ground unit(s). A few Italians can allow you to sack some Russians, or simply bring your German air to the front so the Russians can’t strafe your German stack w/o air cover. Can also get you to Stalingrad or Caucasus faster, but often times it risks your German mech/tanks if the Russians see it and set up a counter. Sometimes Russia has to deal with a 3 ring circus if both Italy and Japan are knocking on the door w/Germany, it is up to the other Allies to even up the score. Even if Moscow falls, it’s all about what they can take with them, and if the western allies are in position to put the hurt on. Besides, if those Italian bombers are picking off Russians, they aren’t helping much in the Med (although the range allows them to threaten both theaters through the Black Sea).

When we play A&A G40 at my bunker it’s always with 6 players, and we play a fast game due to our unique turn system that has worked quite well for us.

Here’s how it works…

In a 6 player game…

1. Simultaneously the German player begins their purchase new units phase, the Russian player moves their eastern forces (18 infantry and 2 AA guns), and the Japanese player begins their purchase new units phase.

2. Simultaneously the German player ends their collect income phase, the Russian player begins their purchase new units phase, and the Japanese player begins their resolve combat phase and/or non combat movement phase.

3. Simultaneously the Russian player ends their collect income phase, the Japanese player ends their collect income phase, and the American player begins their purchase new units phase.

4. Simultaneously the American player ends their collect income phase, the Chinese player begins their purchase new units phase, and the British player (Europe) begins their purchase new units phase.

5. Simultaneously the Chinese player ends their collect income phase, the British player (Pacific) begins their purchase new units phase, and the ANZAC player moves their forces in Africa (2 infantry).

6. Simultaneously the British player (Europe & Pacific) end their collect income phase, the Italian player begins their purchase new units phase, and the ANZAC player begins their purchase new units phase.

7. Simultaneously the Italian player ends their collect income phase, the ANZAC player ends their collect income phase, and the French player conducts their entire turn.

8. Repeat…

PS: We have found that Japan is the real clock pig of all the nations. The player playing Japan should always be starting their purchase new units phase when Germany does, and they should always be ending their collect income phase when Russia does (or shortly after). This one little trick will save you at least 3 hours every game.

@Gargantua:

you seemed to have forgotten that his subs could pass through the strait of Gibraltar without owning Gibraltar

I didn’t forget the rule, I was wholly unaware of it’s exsistence.  I believe it was an Alpha addition.  Yes a mistake.   And no you didn’t wipe the fleet, you wholly damaged it,  And you still failed to control gibraltar, or keep a significant amount of subs in the med.

And it certainly didn’t stop the Axis from winning that game either, so yea, the strategy is BAD.

You should have been building men and transports instead of Subs.

The straits rule is clearly stated in the manual, there is even an example that mentions Gibraltar.

For the record; that was the F2F game in Aldergrove just prior to Xmas not the game in this post. I (Idi Amin) was playing the UK not the USA. You (Gargantua) played Germany and Italy. It was the USA player (the host and a rookie) who completely decimated your spiffy Italian fleet East of Gibraltar. Control of Gibraltar is a moot point when attacking with sub fleets into the Med.

Axis victory you say?? Wow what game were you playing in?!? And as far as an Axis victory goes….I recall NO Sealion, Japan having NO navy AND air force, China HUGE, ANZAC/India controlling ALL the money islands, Britain building tanks in South Africa, Russia holding Norway and Finland and Italy with NO FLEET. If you call that was an Axis victory will you please give me a ride in your invisible helicopter sometime?

Thanks for the speedy reply!