Loading Transports in Hostile Seazones

@jchamlin We shouldn’t go too much off topic, so I’ll try to answer concisely here, and just because you asked for it. Hopefully @Krieghund will take care to correct me if I’m giving wrong information.

@jchamlin said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

@jchamlin I believe you are correct here for every strategic games since Revised LHTR (included). However, I believe that Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB (non-LHTR) reduce this to 2 turns only, as, on turn 1, you can just leave the empty transports in the sea zone, have them taking part in the sea battle and, then, load units onto them (so they will start turn 2 in the same sea zone, but with the units already on board).

Sorry for being new, but I’m not sure about all the acronyms for the various versions of the rules. I think OOB is Out of the Box (i.e. rules as written),

Literally, yes, but I believe that by OOB it is meant also to comprise every official information without the box, that are part of the same rules set as the one included in the game, especially “errata”, giving them priority over every information within the box (so it’s not like OOB means you just look at what’s in the box and disregard everything else). Moreover, it also comprises whatever still valid information given by the original author or any person appointed directly or indirectly by him for giving official answers. Anyways, I believe here this matter is irrelevant, as the original rulebook is clear enough, on the rules at hand.

and LHTR is Larry Harris Tournament Rules.

Of course, and, obviously, the latest version of it if not differently specified.

So, you’re saying there’s a Revised OOB ruleset that allows transports to participate in both the combat and non-combat phases, by first “participating” in the sea battle (not that they do much) and then still participating in non-combat by loading units?

Differently from bridging, loading (only) doesn’t count as a movement for the transport. So, technically, the transport is not moving during Non-Combat, if it only loads. Rather than allowing this, the rules set is not disallowing it (while LHTR and later do). However, the rules set also specifically states that a transport that Combat moved or took part in battle can load, but cannot bridge, on the subsequent Non-Combat move phase, as long as it didn’t offload, during the turn. The only two exceptions to this are if the transport offloaded or retreated.

Can the transports also move during non-combat after loading,

No (that’s the reason why it can load but it cannot bridge, since bridging counts as moving).

and also unload, or can they just be loaded?

It can load or offload, but not both (because it cannot bridge), if it hasn’t offloaded anything. If it offloaded one or more units (during Combat Move or Conduct Combat), it cannot load and it is restricted offloading into the same territory as before (the offloading can only happen if you started your turn with 2 units already on board and offloaded only 1 during Combat Move or Conduct Combat).

Can you point me to where this revised rule is please (link to a forum thread, a rulebook page, an official errata/FAQ, etc)? I can’t seem to find it. The only thing I’ve found is the rule that says all ships present in the sea zone must participate in the battle.

As I said, the fact that you can load, after having taken part in Conduct Combat without retreating from a battle and without offloading, is primarily the consequence of the fact that there are no rules that say you cannot (loading without offloading is not a movement for the transport).
This is the Revised OOB rules set:
https://www.axisandallies.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Axis-Allies-Revised.pdf

On page 21 you can find the (unnecessary) clarification I mentioned:

Transports that have been in combat may either load or offload (not both) during this phase, but not if they have retreated from combat this turn.

As I said, even if the text quoted above would be absent from the rulebook I linked, you could still do that, since the rules set is not forbidding you to do it (and it is already forbidding you to do “both”, as that would be bridging, that counts as moving, which is not possible after having been in combat).

@jchamlin said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

Page 22 of the A&A Pacific 1940 Second Edition Rulebook says:

Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase.

So, basically, the ruling challenge is that this sentence means that transports cannot do any of those things if they were involved in combat.

Can you help point me to the relevant parts of the A&A Pacific 1940 or A&A Europe 1940 Second Edition rulebooks which would clarify that you can load or unload, but not both, and not move, if the transport was involved in combat that turn?

Thanks in advance!

-J.C.

You cannot. From Revised LHTR onwards, rules like those you quoted disallow transports that have been in combat from loading and from offloading. I was merely pointing out that is not the case “since classic”, as you said, but rather since Revised LHTR. This is what I said:

@Cernel said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

Assuming you find yourself in this situation in any version of A&A since classic with a fleet sitting in a hostile sea zone (due to the defender building a destroyer to block), with empty transports, and units available to be picked up from that sea zone for an amphibious assault but cannot: it will take you THREE TURNS before you can conduct an amphibious assault (assuming you don’t get allied help to destroy the blocker). Turn 1: transports flee empty before combat, some portion of the fleet remains to kill the destroyer built to block (as stated earlier in this thread, they must flee, if they stay they are forced to are participate in the sea zone combat and this cannot be loaded during non-combat).
Turn 2: kill the second destroyer built to block, non-combat the transports back in and load them
Turn 3: conduct the amphibious assault

@jchamlin I believe you are correct here for every strategic games since Revised LHTR (included). However, I believe that Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB (non-LHTR) reduce this to 2 turns only, as, on turn 1, you can just leave the empty transports in the sea zone, have them taking part in the sea battle and, then, load units onto them (so they will start turn 2 in the same sea zone, but with the units already on board).

@jchamlin No. “Europe” and “Pacific” are not “Europe 1940” and “Pacific 1940”.

I guess I should have clarified I wasn’t talking about the 1940 ones. I understand only now this was the disconnect.

Links:
https://www.axisandallies.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Axis-Allies-Europe-1999.pdf
https://www.axisandallies.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Axis-Allies-Pacific.pdf

This is a really interesting discussion! I dug out my old A&A Classic Second Edition rule book and I’ve been looking through it. Like the OP, I’ve been playing A&A since the original game. I started a long explanation with citations, but I’m not sure anyone wants to read it. So the Cole’s notes version is this:

• in original A&A, a unit could never begin its turn in an enemy-occupied or enemy-controlled (hostile) territory or sea zone.

• the combat part of the action sequence is “Combat Movement”, and the section of the rules is littered with detail about how to move your units into combat. It’s a fundamental concept, particularly in a new game being introduced to the public: first you move your units to create the combat, and then later you would actually resolve (roll) the combat.

• for transports, the explanation starts out by saying how transports move. they can move 1 or 2 spaces, pick up, drop, and the rules show many examples.

• after this, it describes “bridging”. To me, this section is redundant unless it’s emphasizing that combat loading and unloading doesn’t require the transport to move at all. Otherwise, it’s covered under the preceding paragraph where it says that cargo can be picked up before, during, or after the transport moves. The explanation offered (bridging can be after a transport moves) is already covered - cargo can be picked up after a transport moves.

• So what happens when a transport moves into an enemy-occupied sea zone? It must conduct combat. It says this clearly in the rules, even though it doesn’t have an attack value. If it survives and has cargo, it can unload. And under battleships it once again says that in an amphibious assault, for an adjacent enemy-occupied sea zone, combat must ensue and the enemy units must be defeated before transports can unload units. It doesn’t say that transports can then unload or load and unload.

• It says the same thing in the transports section on how they fight. The rules say, for amphibious assaults, that cargo-laden transports must engage in combat before the amphibious assault can occur if the adjacent sea zone is enemy-occupied. After combat, it says that the transport can unload assaulting land units if the sea zone is cleared. Notably, it doesn’t also say it can load and unload. And if the sea zone isn’t cleared, you must retreat.

So to me, it’s clear that bridging was intended to just cover the fact that a transport is the only unit in the game that can be involved in the combat movement phase without actually moving (again, other than anti-aircraft guns). And it’s also clear that you could only load in a friendly sea zone, since the very moment you enter an enemy-controlled sea zone, you have to conduct combat, and then the only options for the transport are either a) retreat, or b) unload.

Regarding the evolution of the game, there have been other changes to movement related to hostile sea zones: subs can move through hostile sea zones, or even end their turn in hostile sea zones. And you can build in a sea zone containing enemy naval units and make it a hostile sea zone. Interestingly, I couldn’t find the notion of a “hostile sea zone” in the A&A Classic Second Edition rules because, to me, the concept didn’t exist. A territory or sea-zone was either friendly-occupied, friendly-controlled, enemy-occupied, or enemy-controlled. I think the notion of a hostile sea zone emerged because sea zones aren’t really ‘controlled’ if they’re empty, and, as said earlier, in the original game there was no allowance for units of opposing sides to end a turn in the same sea zone or territory. Once this could happen, we needed a way to characterize these sea zones, and calling them hostile made the most sense.

And as it was already pointed out, the Global 1940 exception for allowing transports to load on the turn that war is declared is evidence that, in any other case, this move is not allowed.

To end, I’ll add that i also think it’s odd that a single dd can disrupt an amphibious assault. Odd, but not unfair, illogical, or contrary to the original spirit of the game. So to me, the original rules and those that follow are pretty consistent about bridging, and when and how transports load units for amphibious assaults.

So, when I was putting the rules back last night, I discovered another document: Rules Clarifications from General M. Bradley, Supreme GameMaster. It’s dated 1991; the game manual was dated 1986. Note that the rules are second edition and says that both transport and amphibious assault rules have changed (presumably since the first edition). So it’s possible that the OP was using First edition rules? To be honest I’ve never seen those, although now I’m curious…

So in the rules clarifications, there’s no specific clarity on whether a transport can load in a hostile or enemy-occupied sea zone. But it does say that bridging is as the OP said: you can bridge with a transport after it moves. So I was wrong on that front.

But, it does say again that for an amphibious assault the zone must be cleared before a transport can unload units. It doesn’t say or load and then unload units.

There does seem to be some evolution of thought from the 2nd edition rules to the rules clarification. In the 2nd edition rules, there is an example of units moving from Japan to Manchuria and the transport could do so “without ever leaving the sea zone”, which suggests that it would have started the move there, because in the paragraph before, it states in bold caps that a transport’s move is over once it unloads. But then in the clarification, it says that the transport can move before bridging.

Also, in the 2nd edition rules, under the section “how they fight”, for amphibious assaults, it says:

“If you are launching such an attack and the sea zone adjacent to the target area is enemy-occupied, then your naval force including your cargo-laden transports must engage in in combat before the amphibious assault can occur”.

To me this suggests that the transports had to have been loaded prior to the battle, not after, and such a move has to be done in a friendly sea zone, not an enemy-occupied one.

Anyways, hope I’m not putting anyone to sleep - I just find this issue really interesting!

L

Can we continue to play now ? :confounded: :confounded: :confounded: :confounded:

@freh said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

Also, in the 2nd edition rules, under the section “how they fight”, for amphibious assaults, it says:

“If you are launching such an attack and the sea zone adjacent to the target area is enemy-occupied, then your naval force including your cargo-laden transports must engage in in combat before the amphibious assault can occur”.

To me this suggests that the transports had to have been loaded prior to the battle, not after, and such a move has to be done in a friendly sea zone, not an enemy-occupied one.

The matter at hand is not if a transport can make combat, then bridge (that is make combat, then load, then offload). This has been officially clarified as not allowed (and, in my opinion, it has always been fairly clear it is impossible).

The question is if a transport that started its turn into or just moved into a hostile sea zone can load, then make combat, then offload.

In my opinion, missing a statement that units cannot load in hostile sea zones, this should be allowed for units that have done nothing (units starting in hostile sea zones (which can happen with optional rules or under the 3rd Edition rules)). Therefore, the matter left would be whether or not a sea unit that is blocked by enemy units from moving any more is also blocked from loading.

We are waiting for Larry… I find it quite amazing that, after a quarter of a century, and how many games played, in which this would have been relevant, this matter is yet to be sorted out.

OK, I have an official answer. It was never Larry’s intention that transports in Classic should be able to load in a hostile sea zone, but the rules as written do not reflect that intention. However, he’s not going to revise an FAQ for a game that’s been around for as long as Classic has and is now out of print for something this minor.

The bottom line is that in Classic, per the rules, you can load transports in a hostile sea zone during combat movement, though this was not intended. This ruling does not apply to any other A&A game besides Classic.