What are the pros and cons of no DOW on US by Japan

@simon33

I guess it depends. As Japan, I’m used to opponents who go hard at the Pacific, so protecting sz6 and my ability to keep the Money Islands or retake them, is #1. Then I take a longer approach using the troops from the mainland factories rather than focusing on my transports.

So if the U.S. is spending on the Atlantic side, yeah, go for Calcutta. If taking India will cost me all my ground troops and some planes and ANZAC/US can take islands and start convoying sz6 then its not worth it.

@weddingsinger Interesting comments but the Allies really need to do a lot to prevent a J5 take down of Calcutta. By then all the starting troops from Jehol and south can reach Calcutta, or at least the survivors plus troops produced out of FIC. If you have no transports at all helping out and a few perhaps optimal moves working out like stacking Burma UK1, taking out land units UK1, building artillery C2, killing a bunch of units in Yunnan C3 (or preventing the Japanese from even trying to move their stack in). If everything works out, you might stall it until J6 but it’s hard work.

In spite of USN actions, I reckon you should be able to bring in some amphibious units to take it J4 or J5. If I can’t get it J5 I think the allies have played a great game.

Is J6 or maybe J5 about what you’re thinking?

I’m playing a game right now where i am japan, my teammate is setup for Moscow T5 win w/ 78% chance of victory.I opted to not make DOW with the Japanese to force the US to stay at its borders for an extra turn, and its proving beneficial. We had some really bad rolling in the Atlantic and Mediterranean on T1 (causing us to lose a lot for not much return). It appears to have allowed the Germans the ability to get to Moscow while running lean on the Atlantic wall. All that to say, i like J2 DOW, but sometimes situations arise for you to stall to help ze germans!

@simon33 J5-J7. IF I’m in control as Japan, around J4/J5 I invade Russia, gobble up China. Maybe position to start bombing Moscow if it’ll be helpful. Stack the Japanese fleet and just keep gobbling up income. By J5 or J6 it should be in the 60s, maybe 70.

So if Calcutta turtled and it’ll cost me too much, I just don’t rush if it’ll leave things too open from the U.S. direction since its a 2 or 3 turn commitment (to Calcutta, 1 back to Malaya/Java… one more if you need to get back towards sz6). Because if I’m rolliing up IPCs in Russia and China still, I care more about protecting what I have and dropping 8 new destroyers into my navy on a turn than I do whether I get India on J5 or J7 when I can position myself to threaten ANZAC, too, and be patient.

@Aaron_the_Warmonger said in What are the pros and cons of no DOW on US by Japan:

I’m playing a game right now where i am japan, my teammate is setup for Moscow T5 win w/ 78% chance of victory.I opted to not make DOW with the Japanese to force the US to stay at its borders for an extra turn, and its proving beneficial. We had some really bad rolling in the Atlantic and Mediterranean on T1 (causing us to lose a lot for not much return). It appears to have allowed the Germans the ability to get to Moscow while running lean on the Atlantic wall. All that to say, i like J2 DOW, but sometimes situations arise for you to stall to help ze germans!

Huh? If there’s no DOW by J3, USA can DOW on everyone at the end of US3.

@simon33 if i don’t DOW on J2, i typically do it J3, but, even if i don’t do it J3, the US is restricted on movement through T3 as the declaration of war does not occur until collect income phase. so, if my german ally took some bad dice in europe, i can effectively buy him 4 turns of no US intervention, and i just try to look menacing in the pacific. :pouting_cat: (thats my best menacing)

Oh, thought you meant US still wasn’t at war on turn 5. You just meant it hadn’t reached Europe yet. SZ91 is as far as USA can get before G5 in that case.

@simon33 yep! that was about it, was just trying to note sometimes you have to buy some time for your friends!

I don’t believe I saw it mentioned, but if as Japan I don’t attack on Turn 1 I will go after Russia In the Far East and Amur. Taking away IPC from Russia will always help your German Ally. Every 3 IPC is 1 less troop in Moscow. I also like the fact that as Japan if I don’t attack they are limited to building 3 in the Pacific and if they want more then a lot less in the Atlantic. The plus side of attacking is the possibility of killing the Anzac transport. So if you get lucky with that have 2 infantry take Shan State while also taking out Borneo,Yunnan, French Indo, Philippines, Kwangtung and the areas of China that border then you make a ton of IPC and India gets a ton less while killing the bonus. Also if done right you can set up to take Malaya on turn 2 which is more of a target in my opinion than the money islands. India losing 3 Japan gaining 3 and Anzac losing a bonus is huge. then from there the islands are easy to take. Even if dice rolling is so so it doable. I haven’t rolled well in a game in over a year and that no exaggeration and I still do very well with Japan.

If you do like @weddingsinger and DoW early but fight conservatively, saving your planes and focusing on the money islands / SZ 6 rather than India, how do you respond to a UK buildup in the Middle East? It seems to me that a pair of factories in Iraq and Persia cranking out a balanced mix of units can restore India’s offensive threat even if Japan owns Malaya and Borneo.

Also, does anyone want to be more specific about how they knock out those last 6 to 9 IPCs of the UK Pac economy? Maybe I’ve just had terrible luck, but I can’t seem to bomb India without losing a bomber to AAA fire and/or interceptors, and you only start with 2 subs, one of which sometimes dies fighting over the money islands / Philippines, and one of which can be sunk by the starting UK Pac destroyer. By J2 I have some spare income to buy a sub, usually, but that sub won’t make it to the West Indian Ocean until J5 or so…by which time the UK can often build another destroyer in Egypt, South Africa, or Persia.

@Argothair

Don’t lose a sub at Philippines, you should have 1-2 battleships to soak a hit. If UKPac sends its destroyer away your subs can convoy Malaya on J2 then India next turn.

For UKPac’s last few ipcs… if you take Yunnan you can use escort fighters with your bombers. Buying a 3rd bomber around turn 4-6 is worth while but by then you may be trying to take Calcutta anyway.

UK Middle East cranking out for India should mean little or no help for Russia…Japan can exasperate this by invading J4ish if things are going well (especially if U.S. if KGF)

And don’t get me wrong… I’ll lose Japanese planes IF I decide its really worth it. But losing 6+ fighters is a tough loss to get Yunnan a turn early or some such. But if it meant wiping out everything China and UKPac have, including planes? I’d probably go for it if the situation only gets worse the next turn.

Persia factory uk2 w iraq on turn 3 is the only hope for russia, even with the 20-30 bid or an equivalent mod. Japan would be wise to draw those buys east, they can save india or moscow but not both.

If you NoDOW, this usually means you are after Russia and defeat China and stall the US in the Pacific.
UK will likely grow strong and a Calcutta Crush (CC) is almost not doable.

This helps out Euro Axis alot.
BUT!:
If anything goes wrong with the german march on Moscow, you are screwed on both sides of the Map.

I tried it over and over with minimal success.
Now i prefer a solid J1 in BM and Vanilla since the impact on both Theaters are enormous.
The US has to choose a side and need to quickly balance out the whole board.
UK has all hands full as well.

A J1 is putting a lot of pressure to the Allies.

• a CC is very likely
• stabilize J’s income arround 70-80 ipc
• creating many Threats at once by better pistioning your self in the Pacific.
  -better odds on achivieving all 6 VC’s