AARHE: Phase 2: Units

so I am looking at these values

normal

fighter          3/4
jet figher      4/6 ( it took more than a few planes to even have odds against this plane… you may even want to allow them double attack per round. look up me-262)
bomber        4/1 (heavy bomber rolls two dice)
jet bomber    3/3  ( these only carried very small payloads only germany had this plane Arado 234b jet bomber) They should be impossible to shoot down by AA guns. also id give them a targeted attack on an armor unit of their choice… even though the best they did in the war was destroy stationary targets like bridges.
naval fighter  3/2
divebomber  3/2

dogfighting

fighter          2/3
jet figher      4/4
bomber        1/1 (heavy bomber rolls two dice)… this is not a bad idea due to multiple guns…
jet bomber    2/4
naval fighter  2/2
divebomber  1/2

this looks very good!

Jet figher 4/6 ( it took more than a few planes to even have odds against this plane… you may even want to allow them double attack per round. look up me-262)

but remember this value is for normal combat not dogfighting

++++ oh right… important idea is the me- 262 was concieved as an interceptor by the design team… then old Hitler wanted it as a fighter bomber because it could not be shot down… the combat values in any case must be superior to fighters if we accept the route that Herr Hitler imposed on the project.

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jet bomber 3/3 ( these only carried very small payloads only germany had this plane Arado 234b jet bomber) They should be impossible to shoot down by AA guns. also id give them a targeted attack on an armor unit of their choice… even though the best they did in the war was destroy stationary targets like bridges.

now you have equal attack and defense value, why not 3/4?

+++++ because it had a weak guns for dogfighting… its primary defense value is its blazing speed… it was like 200 MPH faster than any allied plane. It was like trying to dogfight Rodan… (yes that Rodan)

this bomber has small payload, targetted attack, its becoming like a fighter
immunity from AA guns goes for all jet planes…now bomber is 15 IPC why would you buy it instead of the 10 IPC fighter?

+++++ on the jet planes the values have to be higher and the price should be increased… but only marginally because after all its a tech that Germany may get long after its clear they are losing… or the icing on the cake for the victory in Washington DC fall 1946… The value to buy these things must be necessary id place the value at 12 IPC… The jet bomber could stay at 15 IPC but that plane does not engage in SBR… it was not a strategic bomber… it was a tactical bomber hence the targeted ability.

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bomber 1/1 (heavy bomber rolls two dice)… this is not a bad idea due to multiple guns…
yeah thats what I was thinking

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jet bomber 2/4
that would make defending jet bomber dogfight on same odds against attack jet fighter
maybe 2/3?

++++ ok sure sounds good.

should jet bomber dogfighting better than normal fighter?

+++++ only on defense due largly to its speed.

jet bomber and heavy bomber
the ideas are sorta conflicting
can you have a heavy jet bomber?

++++ no thats a long way off… well about 5 years away from a strategic heavy jet bomber… we can add this.

should it get a targetted attack?

No strategic heavy bomber just drops tons of bombs in a confined area… no targeted attack…

This brings up another thing… bombers should not be able to attack naval targets… they can search under ASW but thats it… its impossible for say a lancaster to “bomb” a destroyer or Battleship… because level bombing is done at high altitude at slow speeds and ships are moving too fast. If the planes can lower for a bomb drop all of them would be destroyed by warships AA guns… like shooting giant Rodans moving at 15 knots=== YOU CANT MISS SOMETHING THAT BIG.

Sorry to use the “Rodan” reference so much… i just bought that movie.

jet fighter

so we could consider 4/5, I am just a little sensitive at the moment to a 6 value
+++++ ok thats fine

or we could leave it at 3/4 but firing in both opening and main cycle…
(this is NOT just two rolls…but like what you sugguested…to model its speed you now attack twice…bypassing/skiping dogfighting for main cycle)

but then we gotta decide if jets dogfighting each other in main round fire
or should planes even bomb in main round fire…which is when your troops advance…friendly fire?
+++ this is not clear…sorry

by the way, could WWII jet fighters dogfighting each other?

+++++ yes, however i never seen any actual encounter with a German Jet and say a glouster meteor jet fighter/bomber

Jet bomber

Bomber              15 IPC 4/1 no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships
Jet Bomber          15 IPC 3/3 selective attack, no SBR, attack ships
Fighter                10 IPC 3/4 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship
Jet Fighter          12 IPC 4/5  selective attack, no SBR, attack ship

We still can’t see why you would use Jet bombers, even if we go ahead with “twice attack for jets”.
+++= twice attacks for jet fighters in air to air combat only… not jet bombers against land units for example. those values are good but they are against land targets only

Normal, Jet, Heavy

So Jet is not an upgrade but new fighter and bomber units?

+++ yes it is an upgrade it and be a upgrade for heavy bombers ( jet hvy bombers)

But heavy bomber remains as an upgrade right?
+++ its an upgrade from a bomber and requires tech success.

Just a suggestion. During the Second World War jet bombers didn’t exist. The first operational jet fighter, the Messerschmitt Me 262, was produced near the end of the war. They only developed jet bombers at the post-war period.

In dec 1944 Germany had its first operational use of its Arado -234B jet bomber

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/ardrar2.htm

I think all aircraft should be able to attack ships. Depends on what bomber you’re talking about, though. If it’s ground attack/dive bomber or torpedo bomber it should be able to, but for long-range I don’t know. Maybe dividing bombers into four subcategories–four independent units(torpedo bomber, long-range bomber, attack bomber, and jet bomber if you want to add it)?

Level bombers were not used for tactical combat operations. IN axis and allies fighters represent the tactical while bombers represent the strategic missions. AS we expand the role of air units and add a few new air units those will take on specific roles against naval ( torpedo) and land (dive bomber) targets.

The current lineup is as follows:

OOB units:
Fighters
bombers

Adding new units:
naval torpedo bombers
dive bombers

and with sufficient tech we have: ( these are modifications of existing planes)
long range bombers/ fighters : long range aircraft
heavy bombers
jet fighters
jet bombers

I think jet bombers should be 16 IPC 2/3 selective attack, SBR at half-strength, attack ships, dogfight at 2/2
++++ at that price jet bombers would be worthless for 16 IPC. Id rather buy a fighter.

or should planes even bomb in main round fire…which is when your troops advance…friendly fire?
+++ this is not clear…sorry

Basically I was thinking letting jets attack in both opening and main round fire.
Hence they non-jet planes do not prevent enemy jet planes from attacking friendly land units.
But now I see you mean jets only hit twice for dogfighting.

OOOO yes a great idea… jets cannot be intercepted so they can attack targets and then also in air combat. My idea on the twice attack was the fact that Me-262 was able to take out multiple planes with its speed. it was the tiger tank of the sky.

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by the way, could WWII jet fighters dogfighting each other?
+++++ yes, however i never seen any actual encounter with a German Jet and say a glouster meteor jet fighter/bomber

then could it be because it wasn’t possible in WWII?

OOOOO no its because the quantities of these planes were so scarce that they never saw each other and because they had different roles in the war.

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+++= twice attacks for jet fighters in air to air combat only… not jet bombers against land units for example. those values are good but they are against land targets only

Those values are just summary of current prooposal.
Jet bombers dogfighting worse than jet fighter…so taking that into account Jet Bomber is still bad value compared to Jet Fighter.

Bomber               15 IPC 4/1 no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships, dogfight at 1/1
Jet Bomber          15 IPC 3/3 selective attack, no SBR, attack ships, dogfight at 2/3
Fighter                10 IPC 3/4 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 2/3
Jet Fighter           12 IPC 4/5  selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 4/4

Except for that Bomber can become Heavy Bomber…so Jet Bomber can become Heavy Jet Bomber…
Surprised to see you want Heavy Jet Bomber…since it conflicts with an “agile” and fighter-like “Jet Bomber”.

+++ it should be at least possible if the game is extended in late 1945 american “shooting star” jet fighter shows up.

also about 3 years later americans had that heavy jet bomber aka the flying wing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YB-49

Ok so we’ll let jets bypass dogfighting with non-jets.
If only one side has jets, those jets can choose to preemptively and selectively attack ground targets (as if that side had air superiority).

++++ that would be an option for the owner of the jets… especially jet bombers

And then we could apply the “armor hits on armor/artillery” rule to dogfighting!
“In dogfighting, hits by jets must be allocated on jets before non-jets.”

+++++ yes thats good!

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Bomber              15 IPC 4/1 no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships, dogfight at 1/1
Jet Bomber          15 IPC 3/3 selective attack, no SBR, attack ships, dogfight at 2/3
Fighter                10 IPC 3/4 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 2/3
Jet Fighter          12 IPC 4/5  selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 4/4

So the problem remains. When you achieve Jet Technology, you would upgarde your fighters but you wouldn’t upgrade your bombers…

+++++ no you have a seperate piece… all your planes dont just “poof” and become jets. you have to build them individually

We may need to leave the Jet Bomber as a bomber rather than fighter-like units.
So it would be like…

Jet Bomber        15 IPC 3/3, no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships, dogfight at 2/2

I mean you want Jet to be an upgrade not a new unit. It would be weird then you achieve “Jet” technology you suddenly lose ability to SBR  tongue

++++ yea that is a problem… for now lets take that idea and allow SBR for jets

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Except for that Bomber can become Heavy Bomber…so Jet Bomber can become Heavy Jet Bomber…
Surprised to see you want Heavy Jet Bomber…since it conflicts with an “agile” and fighter-like “Jet Bomber”.
+++ it should be at least possible if the game is extended in late 1945 american “shooting star” jet fighter shows up.

Ok how do we actually model that?
Separate into different techologies…“Heavy bomber”, “Jet bomber”, and “Heavy jet bomber” ?
“Jet” then becomes “Jet fighter”.

This is complicated.
But remember we don’t want use fixed dates, unless there is a very good reason for it. Remember we want historical simulation not historical replay.

++++ the tech boxes will allow each player to see where he stands on his ability to gain a tech advantage. The axis and allied tech sheets needs to be seperate so neither side has an idea where the other is at until its allready happened.

That would be the easy path… i agree… however some of these pieces can be used from 2nd edition units…

the cruiser unit is the old battleship

the mech infantry unit is the old tank piece ( or buy halftracks)

use old fighters for naval planes

the old bombers can be used for regular bombers, the new bombers can be jet or heavy…

eventually some additional pieces may have to be purchased. Failing that ill make some stickers that will go on chips to delininate which is a jet, heavy, heavy jet bomber, etc.

It may seem complicated but the OOB have this same thing ( problem) except they shortcut the whole problem by saying in effect " all your planes are instantly " fill in the blank"

that is not historically based.

naw… i have this playtested on weekends. once you try it you never look back. Its not too tactical. it just maintains some additional items in a different sequence or perspective.