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Nicely done GHG… very informative.

To try and answer the question of the day:

The US subs can either participate in the battle now that the air units have scrambled or submerge (not participate but remain in SZ26). And each sub could choose (so one could participate, and one could submerge). This is possible because there is now a sea battle created by the scrambling fighters, where as it would not possible if they did not scramble as there was no sea battle and the subs could be ignored.

If any of the subs survive and no Japanese surface ships survive then the transports cannot offload/amphibious assault Hawaii and must retreat to a SZ that at least one ship came from.

Cheers!

Hello GHG,

If the Americans scramble their 2 fighters in Hawaii against the Japanese invasion fleet, then a sea battle is created, and the previously ignored American subs can enter the battle if they choose (they can also submerge and stop participating at any point in the battle since the Japanese do not have any destroyers in the battle).

The sea battle involves an attacking Japanese carrier, 2 cruisers, and 3 transports against the defending 2 American fighters and 2 subs (if they choose to participate, which they probably will given that this battle determines the outcome of the entire game). The American submarines get a first strike attack as long as they’re in the battle, since the Japanese have no destroyers. These could damage or kill the Japanese carrier or cruisers without them being able to fire back (except if the Japanese carrier is only damaged).  The result of the battle may greatly affect the Japanese turn:

The Japanese will win the battle if they can kill the 2 American fighters and either sink the American submarines or have them submerge, which is unlikely since this is a critical battle. If the Japanese lose their 2 cruisers while killing the 2 American fighters, then the Japanese can’t win the battle, since they would only have a carrier with 0 attack and non-combat transports, all of which will eventually be sunk by the defending American submarines if the Japanese do not retreat. Thus, Japan must in fact kill both fighters and both submarines. Note that the Japanese cannot kill both American fighters and then choose to ignore any remaining American subs. They must sink both subs and both fighters. Even if they do this, the cruisers can no longer bombard Hawaii, so it will be up to the 6 ground units and the Japanese planes to kill the American land units on Hawaii. With 6 land units and 7 planes against 8 infantry, this is still very likely. Thus, if Japan manages to win the sea battle, they will likely capture Hawaii and thus win the game. However, if in the sea battle the Japanese carrier is damaged or sunk, then the 2 Japanese planes attacking Hawaii with only 1 move left will be forced to die if they survive the battle. After the battle, the surviving Japanese planes with 2 movement could land on the carriers off Midway, and the one with 3 movement could land on Midway itself.

However, a FUBAR will occur if the Japanese lose the sea battle. This will occur if they lose both cruisers and if any American units are left in the sea zone. At this point, retreating from the sea zone is the best option, since each round the battle is continued with a carrier and transports unable to attack is another round they could be killed by the American units. If such a retreat occurs, the surviving Japanese ships (the carrier if still alive and any transports) would have to retreat one space away to a sea zone at least one of the original attackers originated in (even if the attacking ship in question was sunk). This nullifies the ground unit landing on Hawaii, but the 7 planes will be forced to attack Hawaii for at least 1 round, leading to the probable loss of a couple of planes. After the first round of such a battle, the Japanese would be well advised to retreat, since they can’t capture Hawaii with just planes and trading planes for infantry is a bad idea. In this case, since the Japanese carrier was forced to retreat (if it wasn’t sunk), the Japanese planes in Hawaii with 1 move left no longer have anywhere to land (if they survived the 1 round of the battle of Hawaii), so they will be forced to ditch in the ocean. The Japanese planes with 2 moves can again land on the 2 carriers off Midway, and the Japanese planes with 3 moves can land on Midway itself.

The retreating transports will still have their troops on board, and cannot land them onto a friendly island. Thus, they are vulnerable to being sunk by a surviving American fighter or submarine unless they are protected by other Japanese ships. If the Japanese sufficiently protect these transports, they may be able to try invading Hawaii again next turn, this time no doubt bringing enough forces to win both the sea and the land battle, if possible. However, the US will do all in its power to prevent this from happening again, now that they are alerted.

Thanks,

calvinhobbesliker

Hey GHG!

The other option for the subs is since they have been drawn into a naval battle due to scramble and there are no attacking subs or destroyers, they can do a surprise attack on the two Japanese cruisers and/or carrier. If they hit, then attacker must select casualty without a defense. This is due to the fact that step 3 of naval combat (attacker rolls) doesn�t Happen until decisions regarding sub surprise attack occur.

If they hit twice on surprise Then here is the scenario:

Attacker must pick loss - either the two cruisers or the carrier…or one hit on carrier and lose one cruiser. Well…

1. if they choose the cruisers to lose then the carrier can’t attack the planes. Uh oh…

2. if they choose the AC as a loss then two planes are lost that needed to land on a carrier.

3. if they choose to loose one cruiser and damage the carrier, then hey will loose two planes as well…although they would be able to attack the planes wth the cruiser.

Basically…a mess for Japan. Better hope USA doesn’t know they can surprise attack.

Hello, General Hand Grenade,

Tossing my hat in for the first time on here, but here we go;

Examining your “Invasion of Hawaii” scenario, I see several effects this could have on the Japanese as follows, and I will break my analysis down step by step:

1.) The Japanese player has put 3 fighters, 3 Tac. Bombers and 1 Strategic Bomber into Hawaii (Alongside the 3 infantry, 2 artillery, and single tank respectively). Fending off against 8 infantry at a defense of 2 or less.

2.) Looking at the naval engagement, you have 1 aircraft carrier, 2 cruisers, and the three transports against 2 fighter class units and 2 submarines. Now the aircraft carrier IS a capital ship and therefore takes two hits to sink; as well as defending on a roll of 2 or less.

The submarines, being able to perform Surprise Strikes can choose to go into the naval battle now that Scrambling has commenced or remain submerged and ignore the combat. Considering the potential for a successful Japanese invasion winning the game, it is probable the US player will bring them in to prevent that.

Moving on with the naval battle, the subs fire, presuming, by odds at least one of them hits, then the Japanese player must assume a hit and therefore weigh their options to cripple the carrier and make it unusable for planes or lose a cruiser. The obvious option is to lose the carrier (cripple or otherwise lose completely). My reasoning for this will come up later.

Once the subs have fired, general combat begins and, unfortunately chances are at least one of the planes will hit and which case you lose either a cruiser or the carrier (provided of course it is still alive after the subs strike). The best scenario is to again, lose the carrier first. My reasoning is that although it means two planes no longer have a landing zone within range, this is negligible as, considering what the Japanese player sent in to invade Hawaii with, and how many units the US is defending with, ultimately you WILL lose at least 2, if not 3-4 planes. With this in mind, it would make sense to use the carrier as cannon fodder to absorb hits.

Now provided of course, the dice are in your favor, you will likely come out of the first round of naval combat with at least one cruiser and the US will have lost their planes, and potentially a submarine. Once the planes are gone, the best course of action for the US player depends on if they still have their submarines AND, how many naval warships are still in the zone.

IF the US has both subs and the Japanese have only 1 cruiser, or have lost ALL ships then they should remain and sink whatever is left as well as the transports, effectively neutralizing the Japanese threat, however, otherwise it would be better for them to submerge so they will be available for a counter strike on the US’s next turn.

IF they have 1 sub and the Japanese have 1 cruiser then they go go for the gambit, but again, the safer bet is to submerge or retreat for similar reasons as the above argument.

Now then, for final analysis, assuming by general odds the Japanese player has come out on top with either one cruiser or just the transports and the US has lost all naval units or submereged subs, and the Japanese have won their naval engagements, they must conduct Non-Combat in which the planes can return to their carriers off Midway or the Japanese player can move the carriers to the sea one around Hawaii to face the counter attack. Most likely, as I said earlier you’ve lost the fighter and Tactical bomber who only had 1 movement left anyway as well as the Strategic bomber (As let’s face it, at this point it has less value than the other aircraft) but the remaining aircraft have homes on the remaining carriers.

NOW, I would like to point out, that in sea zone 33, from which the transports came, you left a destroyer behind which, considering what the Japanese were intending to do, should have brought the ship along as though it means no naval bombardment, it would have prevented the subs from having surprise strikes in the first place.

That aside, during non combat, the Japanese player can bring down the carriers, land the planes and bring the destroyer up and that would serve as a good deterrent from a US naval counter. Reasonably though, the destroyer should have been brought in from the start as otherwise this operation is a bit too precarious to be risking the game on as, having gone frame by frame in the video, it seems that not only do the Japanese NOT have any ships in position for a second turn attempt, but, they only have 1 at most 2 transports, a submarine, a single battleship and carrier with tactical bomber aboard it as the remainder of their fleet, which unless in their purchase for that turn they have more warships, they will be in a grinder as the US will have time to rebuild and come into the Pacific while the Japanese are in a vice as, looking at the mainland of Asia, they haven’t made much progress inland to China or any real gains towards India who IS in the war as Hong Kong IS in Japanese hands meaning they attacked either on that turn or previous and now, by having already attacked the US previously they face three nations at war with, at current, a much greater combined economy and better position to crush them.

Hope this was a good enough analysis,

Legacy1912

I thought he was just trying to show how the aircraft movement-remaining tokens work… I didn’t think he was trying to showcase the Hawaii invasion scenario…

@GeneralHandGrenade:

@Nowhere:

I thought he was just trying to show how the aircraft movement-remaining tokens work… I didn’t think he was trying to showcase the Hawaii invasion scenario…

That is correct. However, if you watched the video to the end you will see that if you answered the question that I posed during the scenario you had a chance to win an awesome prize.

And I actually watched the video, but I guess I wasn’t playing close attention… oh well… oddly enough, I just placed a new order with HBG this weekend.

The only problem I have with HBG’s new flight markers is that they stop at 6. Between long range aircraft tech and air bases, if I’m getting a set of flight range markers, I’d like them to go up to at least 8, if not 9.

But that’s me.

-Midnight_Reaper

@Midnight_Reaper:

The only problem I have with HBG’s new flight markers is that they stop at 6. Between long range aircraft tech and air bases, if I’m getting a set of flight range markers, I’d like them to go up to at least 8, if not 9.

But that’s me.

-Midnight_Reaper

We can add 7,8, and 9 if there are people who want them.
problem is that my guage was only designed to 6 :-o

Flip them over and etch in your number or stick a number on it.

@HBG:

@Midnight_Reaper:

The only problem I have with HBG’s new flight markers is that they stop at 6. Between long range aircraft tech and air bases, if I’m getting a set of flight range markers, I’d like them to go up to at least 8, if not 9.

But that’s me.

-Midnight_Reaper

We can add 7,8, and 9 if there are people who want them.
problem is that my guage was only designed to 6 :-o

HBG,

You know, I wouldn’t mind flight markers for a remaining range of 7, 8, or 9 and a fuel gauge that max’s out at 6. If I still have an available flight range of 7, I’d say that the tank is still full… Traditionally, one method for increasing flight range was by the use of drop tanks. When the drop tanks were emptied and discarded, the internal fuel tanks were still mostly full at that point.

In short, I would buy them (Flight Range Markers with ranges of 7, 8, and 9 on a marker with a fuel gauge that tops out at 6) if you made them.

-Midnight_Reaper

Virginia Hall Goillot (woman)
Cuthbert (leg)

Congrats to Caesar’s Gaul! You beat me to the answer.  Curse my luck for having to work!  :-P

Now these go on my last minute Christmas Wish List!!!

Well Virginia was given a direct order to eliminate Cuthbert if he gave her any trouble.