AAA Should Be Permitted to Attack

All my games I play are D12. Gives more room to add those extra 30 pieces to game than 40 game. :-D :-D

There is both air to air combat and self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery in the Amerika game. The way it works is as followed;

1. Phase 1-Anti-aircraft Artillery fires (both sides). Casualties removed.
2. Phase 2-Air combat. Fighters are matched up with fighters, extra fighters can double up or wait and take part Phase 3 (ground combat). Bombers are matched up with bombers, extra bombers can double up or take part in Phase 3.
3. Phase 3-Ground combat. Any aircraft not engaged in Phase 2 joins in the ground combat. Remove casualties. End combat.

Note. Fighters are matched with fighters first and bombers with bombers first, but if one side has more fighters and the other more bombers, then fighters are matched with bombers. On a
D12, fighters hit at 4 and bombers at 2. There are only the 2 types of planes and there is only 1 round of combat.

What I would suggest if you wanted to adapt some type of system like this is that you keep the AAA already in A&A (reduce to 4 IPC) but add SPAA for 5 IPC and only the SPAA could move on combat movement. Or if you wanted just convert them all to SPAA.
First round-AA fire. Remove casualties. Match the fighters with fighters, tacs with tacs, any extra with strats but no strats vs strats. Assign values to them eg. F=2, TB=2, St=1.(or something like that). Remove casualties.
General combat with any leftover aircraft at normal values. Remove casualties.
Second round-back to regular combat. Continue to resolve combat.
I think that you will find that the planes will disappear faster than in an OOB game so be careful what you wish for if you want air to air.

The combat is certainly a lot more interesting in Amerika. General combat has different categories where you can target higher value units with other higher value units or with good rolls. You wouldn’t be able to adapt it to A&A without completely changing the mechanics of the game so if that’s something you wanted to do you may as well invent a new game or go and buy yourself an Amerika game.

Yes what GHG says about planes disappearing real fast is correct. When I tested in a game they just shot at each other per round of combat. Couldn’t use against naval ships until 1 side won in the air. So if your going to attack or defend u hope you match fig for fig.

That’s why I would suggest only 1 round of air to air and then back to regular combat. Also helps to reduce the values in air to air and makes more sense because you are chasing your target instead of just hitting a static target on the ground.

@GeneralHandGrenade:

That’s why I would suggest only 1 round of air to air and then back to regular combat. Also helps to reduce the values in air to air and makes more sense because you are chasing your target instead of just hitting a static target on the ground.

The G40 gamers may go for this. But ? Ha now you can add planes can scramble 1 territory away for defending 1 round of combat. :-o :-o

I’m not sure that I understand what you mean. After the first round things would return to normal and the planes would still be involved. They don’t fly away after the first round they simply start to engage ground targets round 2 and beyond.

What I meant is any figs from a surrounding territory outside of terrotilory being attacked can come in and defend against attacking planes for 1 round or defend with ground troops for 1 round of combat. Sorry I shouldn’t of used the word scramble.

I kept similar or as near as possible attack and defense strength per cost ratio with Fighter and TacBomber.
A defense 4 for 10 IPCs, for instance, is same strength with a defense 2 for 7 IPCs.

That way, I reduced cost of both and increase set-up numbers on a 2 OOBs Fgs or TcBs gives 3 mod planes.
Same for Carrier, instead of holding 2 planes, 3 planes can land on mod Carrier.
Even 1 or 2 planes can land on a just captured territory, this increase dogfight in front TTs.

More planes, more direct actions and more attrition.

I never played enough games and longer game to discover if something is broken.
But it was funnier and give a much better WWII impressionistic feel.

For 5 IPCs, you can easily figure that AAA includes enough logistic divisions to move these artillery batteries.

If I was to ever change the OOB I would just allow AAA to move 1 space on a combat movement and change nothing else. If you’re going to change the air combat that much (as I had suggested) you might as well play a different game.

I was only relating how it works in Amerika and suggested how it might be adapted. As interesting as the combat dynamic is in Amerika I prefer A&A because it is much simpler and works well with the units involved. With the targeting of units it wouldn’t just be the air units disappearing quickly, it would be all of the pricey units. It would completely change the way the game is played from purchasing to placing and every step in between. You wouldn’t be playing A&A anymore.

The reason that I decided to enter this thread is because I wanted to caution all of you with the number of changes proposed in this thread. It might seem like a good idea when you’re talking about it, but speaking as someone who has used this system (air to air), I would say that it has no place in G-40.

Well we kinda went off topic and yes I would just change if in G40 only put in Rank HR or have AAA gun  defend normal and M1 on combat and get 1 shot at 1 plane only first round of combat.

My 2nd option in post was something simple for G40 game for attack and defend AAA.

@Ichabod:

Yes.

Also, I’m curious, were you or are you in the military?

No military service for me, unless you count a year in the reserves 20 years ago, no deployment lol. But I work with a guy that was artillery for 10+ years, as per him. Unless its a built in like the WW1 style Maginot line type stuff AAA and arty were moved and used the same, lots of AAA were actually smaller and more portable like the one referenced from saving private Ryan movie. The same Artillery unit was assigned both of these types of artillery for Canada anyway. Stands to reason other countries would be similar. My wife’s Grandfather was in Canadian artillery in WW2 and assigned to an Anti-Aircraft battery for part of his time, rest was standard artillery in Europe 1939-1946.

GHG
Is correct on the aircraft disappearance rates, tried that as a house rule. Brutally expensive!
HBG 1936 rules regarding fighter air superiority round (first round all fighter hits are assigned to aircraft if available), isn’t as bad for this. But can be advantageous to scramble fighters. Just to take out carrier aircraft, even though you are bound to lose the battle.
page 39 and 54, same as quote on Anti-aircraft.

SS
Good idea on facility AAA pieces, will give me something to use my old AAA units from pacific and original games. but may make strategic bombing too easy, or expensive to defend. have you given this a trial run?

Thanks for bringing up Saving Private Ryan where the Wehrmacht used the 20mm AA gun against infantry. That opens the door if AA guns should be able to shoot at infantry.

@GeneralHandGrenade:

If I was to ever change the OOB I would just allow AAA to move 1 space on a combat movement and change nothing else. If you’re going to change the air combat that much (as I had suggested) you might as well play a different game.

I was only relating how it works in Amerika and suggested how it might be adapted. As interesting as the combat dynamic is in Amerika I prefer A&A because it is much simpler and works well with the units involved. With the targeting of units it wouldn’t just be the air units disappearing quickly, it would be all of the pricey units. It would completely change the way the game is played from purchasing to placing and every step in between. You wouldn’t be playing A&A anymore.

The reason that I decided to enter this thread is because I wanted to caution all of you with the number of changes proposed in this thread. It might seem like a good idea when you’re talking about it, but speaking as someone who has used this system (air to air), I would say that it has no place in G-40.

GHG
Is correct on the aircraft disappearance rates, tried that as a house rule. Brutally expensive!
HBG 1936 rules regarding fighter air superiority round (first round all fighter hits are assigned to aircraft if available), isn’t as bad for this. But can be advantageous to scramble fighters. Just to take out carrier aircraft, even though you are bound to lose the battle.
page 39 and 54, same as quote on Anti-aircraft.

Thanks for sharing GHG,

IMO, from a lot of variations, the Attack 2 Defense 2 is the highest you can give to keep bearable attrition rate.
In this, 1914 Fighter units Cost 6 is correct as a dedicated aircraft to fight plane. 7 IPCs is correct too.

Of course going all out with OOB combat values is completely OP, and a recipe for shooting down too many planes.

On offensive AAA, Ichabod, I think either up to 1 shot per plane or up to three planes seems simpler.
First option, because all other attacking units only had 1 roll each.
Second, AAA defense is preemptive @1 up to three planes.

Going with 2 rolls seems an additional change.

There is a few threads on AAA in this forum, did you read some?

@Black_Elk:

Honestly the thing that annoys me more than anything else about the AAAGUN is the movement restriction to Non Combat. It makes the unit very difficult to maneuver effectively on the map, and especially across the water. If making an HR adjustment I’d prefer if it worked like every other unit, ie able to move during the combat phase.

Rank

As far as using different AAA guns I have used the white ones for Rocket tech ( SBR up to 3 spaces away from any territory ) and SPA and tank destroyers. But now I bought SPA and tank destroyers from HBG.

But know for my next 40 test game will need 3 AAAs with different colors or use the grey, white and 40 OOB 2nd edition AAA gun due to adding the attacking AAA gun. I’m going to probably paint some AAA guns fluresant orange or yellow. Depends on what game I play. Some pieces in 39 games have those colors already.

In the 40 OOB game if factory’s have built in AAA guns then just use the grey for 1 shot at a plane first round only A1 and D1  up to 3 planes or a shot at each plane. Can move on combat and non combat. No built in guns in factory’s then use  grey AAA for defense and white ones for A1 D1 in all other territories but you need to buy first. If the factory’s have built in AAA guns then the grey AAA s on setup need to remove unless you want to start with A1 D1 AAA guns.

SS
Yeah, Ill try it out your way. Always liked painted pieces bold solid colours need to stand out from the rest. Much easier to ID by type or country. Tried the fancy painting stuff, but without decals players are easily confused as to whose/what pieces they are. And then need a chart to explain it.