A New Game

I think this subject has been previously discussed on multiple threads, but in a nutshell, I’m of the impression Larry Harris is (more or less) done with the Axis and Allies WWII format (I could be wrong, but I recall that’s what I read, but it’s been awhile).

We already have several versions of Axis and Allies that covers WWII for a variety of players needs…

1941: Introductory version, lightest on rules, shortest on gameplay, an “A&A Classic Light” version

1942SE: probably the closest thing we have to a re-imagined Classic A&A game with modern rules and custom sculpts

AA50 Anniversary (reprint pending): the ultimate evolution of the Classic A&A format in-spirit with more countries and a bigger map

1940 Global (including ETO&PTO): A&A on steroids… taking the format about as far as it can go and still be recognizable as A&A… the most in-depth rules, most units, biggest map, most countries.

Is there some aspect of A&A for WWII we really don’t have covered? As a person who bought and played the original classic A&A in the 1980s, which was the ONLY version of A&A that existed “back in my day”, I must say the options for A&A today in 2017 are far-reaching to pretty much any demographic of someone that may be interested in the subject. I would have been thrilled to have this many options back in the day. I guess the question to ask here, is “what do you think is missing from the A&A franchise that we need to revisit and/or make a new game for?”.

I don’t know Larry Harris personally… he’s not my good friend who comes over for dinner every weekend… but if I were him, I would think I could hang my hat on the WWII A&A franchise and think “job well done, there’s not much more I can do here”.

I think I saw some tweaks to A&A 1942 SE balancing for tournament play still going on from Larry though, right?

@Mordineus:

I think I saw some tweaks to A&A 1942 SE balancing for tournament play still going on from Larry though, right?

Tweaks to rules for Tournament play (a very small niche-market), is hardly a reason to release 1942: Third Edition. I stand by my previous post on the matter.

@TheAandAClassicDude:

If not that, maybe more operation specific games? We already have D-Day and Barbarossa, but what if there was something like the Battle of Berlin?

We already have D-Day and Battle of the Bulge and Guadalcanal as official A&A games, but there’s never been an official Barbarossa game from WotC/Avalon Hill.

@TheAandAClassicDude:

To answer your question about “what do you think is missing?”, I would say maybe add more depth. Make it feel like it’s YOUR country, where you are the country’s leader and it isn’t just you playing as Hitler or Stalin. Somehow add more politics into the game, or have trade routes set up based on the economic value of a territory. Or maybe something like “Germany is able trade with any nations it isn’t at war with, including it’s allies”.

Nothing wrong with wanting the things you mentioned… but here’s something to ponder…

What you described is NOT Axis and Allies… those are different games, with different formats using different rule sets with different goals.

Let me give you an example… you’re probably familiar with the game of RISK? (I hope so, or this is going to be a bad example)… lets say you played classic RISK… lets say you played RISK a lot… RISK is fairly generic… move “armies” from one territory to another… conquer territories… the more territories you have the more “armies” you get… but its basically generic… there’s not even a real specific time or war assigned to the game… it’s just generic world conquest with armies on a map of the earth conquering territories.

Now you’ve been playing RISK for a long time, you go to a gaming forum where players talk about RISK and you say…

“You know what RISK is missing?.. I wish RISK was time specific… like maybe instead of generic world conquest, it was about WWII… and instead of ‘black player, red player, blue player’ each player was in control of a nation, like Germany or the US or Japan… and instead of ‘more territories give you more armies’, each territory was worth a specific amount… so Germany or France was worth more than Madagascar or Argentina. Also, instead of just ‘armies’, we have more specific units like infantry, tanks, fighters, bombers, battleships and carriers”.

Now that’s all fine and dandy to want all those things… and if you got all those things… is it still RISK? Or did you just invent a new game that really isn’t RISK at all? Maybe you just invented Axis and Allies, a totally different game (this thought process may have been what happened with Larry Harris). I’m of the mindset that you want a far more in-depth game than what Axis and Allies is.

I come from the old pre-computer, wargaming grognard culture of the 1970s and 1980s hex-based boardgaming days of SSI, SPI and Avalon Hill Bookshelf games. Many of those games were exactly what you described, where you did everything for your country, you controlled a far more in-depth economy, very detailed research programs, diplomacy with other nations, economics, trade, etc. Along came Axis and Allies, stripped of all those things, but adding 3D sculpts and just a light, fast game… the term “Beer and Pretzels wargaming” became a thing because of Axis and Allies… it’s a different mindset than the old wargames of the 70s and 80s.

I’d argue Axis and Allies is a far more complicated game of RISK, or a much lighter version of the old boardgames like Rise and Fall of the Third Reich or Hitler’s War… it fills a niche between too easy and too complex… now there’s nothing wrong with light fun games or super complicated games… everyone likes something different… but I’m of the belief A&A fills a niche between those worlds, which itself is a unique place to be… if you want to start tacking on a lot more rules, a lot more depth, a lot more involvement, then I’d argue, what you seek, isn’t Axis and Allies, but something else entirely… like the guy that wants a far more advanced and less generic RISK, many not want RISK, he might actually want A&A. What you seek is probably already out there, just under a different brand name.

And that kinda puts me back on my original response… I think Axis and Allies in it’s current format is done and covers the spectrum pretty well. So many games only come in one version, we’re lucky to have all the options we currently have from 1941 light A&A to 1940 Global heavy A&A and everything inbetween.

@TheAandAClassicDude:

I see, I’ll continue my personal hunt for the most in depth war game I can find. Being a minor myself, I am unaware of old games from “your time” (No offense). Thank you for taking time to write such an in depth response. Also yes, I know what RISK is.

Hi fellow minor! :wink:

Twilight Imperium 4ed promises to be the best 4X (trade fight build diplomacy? I think) out there.  Problem is the steep learning curve and tons of races and special rules.

There are also a Star Trek and Star Wars themed “universe” sized 4X style game, with radically different teams.  One is called Insurrection, don’t own either but they look amazing.

as to semi-homebrewed games like AxA, FMG has a “Global War” map and rules for purchase, and a gentleman named jeff created a spin of AxA called “the War Game” which incorporates many customizable ideas such as rushing past blockers, special units for every team and different pricing for each team.  He is a great guy and salesman for his idea, which is available for sale.  Its a kind of AxA with added scope and complexity, with its own sculpts and rules.

I think Wolf has it right here;  many gamers consider AxA to be too “light” but then again, they don’t play any games at all (it being impossible to teach and find time to play serious, deep wargames).  some of the older games mentioned here in the “chits and hexes” era from 1965-1980 are awesome value and rules but playablity takes a massive back seat.  The fact that triple AAA and the community exist adds for the possibility (like the WoTC d20 open license idea, but crowdbrewed) of unique set ups and games that are not really AxA anymore (very similar to how Civ 4-6 led to open sourced mods better than the published game).

So this is really a golden era of home-published games and new products.  Axis and Allies pretty much is an exhausted brand that has been extensively used and abused but what remains is a huge catalog of sculpts and optional rules that could keep you busy on a desert island.

WoTC knows the brand is kinda tired, but it still supports Smorey and prints of the games, there is some demand out there.  Lots of products die a slow death in that position, but not really this game.  That’s thanks to the internet, IMO.  Larry is a game designer, he doesn’t really like to play so much as create from what people say, and his mission statement on War Room makes it clear that is and has been his focus.  With both of the IP parties interested elsewhere, the next product will probably come out a ways down the road, as a revival, and may or may not involve LH.  But who knows.

Market Garden.

Also Blood Rage and Scythe are massively popular “Euro” style wargames with more abstract and “any path to victory” tradeoffs and points counting, these have sweet figurines and awesome art, though the more abstract warfighting style of deck/points/efficiency may not be appealing to a traditional wargamer.

There’s just so much out there… with new twists on the old “map and men and money” idea AxA got rolling

I would love to see an A&A theatre game for the Med. It would be a full sized board and include the land territories surrounding the Med. There would of course be a number of sea zones and all of the islands in the Med. Being predominantly a naval game, you could introduce another sea unit and perhaps some coastal bunkers/guns into the game.

The best days were MSN game zone back in 1997-8, where 5 players can simultaneously play AA and that game had options to toggle on/off and the graphics and music were great. that’s the best format for this, where people can nightly play with anybody. The current ugly looking maps and pieces just don’t stand up. A game disk containing all the boardgames should be made available.

@Imperious:

The best days were MSN game zone back in 1997-8, where 5 players can simultaneously play AA and that game had options to toggle on/off and the graphics and music were great. that’s the best format for this, where people can nightly play with anybody. The current ugly looking maps and pieces just don’t stand up. A game disk containing all the boardgames should be made available.

Play TripleA on the live servers.  No need to live your life 20 years in the past.

Triple A is too ugly. I prefer quality.

If I ever play on a screen, it will probably be on something like the Steam simulators that look like you’re playing on a table top.

yea and everyone can talk with headphones, mute other team during turns and allow multiple players to control a turn function ( one guy builds, another moves, place, no wasted time)

And you can load up music from war tune library.

You can toggle on all options and all games , all scenarios OOB plus collection house rules

@Young:

If I ever play on a screen, it will probably be on something like the Steam simulators that look like you’re playing on a table top.

You are blessed with people who will come to your bunker and play face to face… that is what A&A (all boardgames in-fact) is really all about… the human interaction in the same room over a beloved game. Something like TripleA is mostly for people who can’t afford the luxury of in-person gaming (either because of lack of physical opponents in the area, or lack of time)… While TripleA may be better than not playing at all, I don’t think it can compare with the satisfaction of playing other people face to face.

You are blessed Grasshopper that you have that great interaction in your life… I miss having face to face opponents… the warm glow of the computer monitor is bad for my complexion anyways. I’m still hoping my kids will graduate from games like Risk to A&A as they hit their teen years… maybe I can at least have that!

That’s why we keep getting back to this idea of a community;  that includes local people, gaming friends across all demographics, my kids, the national audience (gencon, origins, regional cons), and the international audience (AAA and this site).

I really focus on that “build it and they will come” mantra.  If you build that base of interested people, games don’t just sit on a shelf or just get tapped for a while, then dropped.    If you are open to travel or talking to/hanging out with a stranger, or spending substantial time with someone radically different than yourself, there are more possibilities.

Even losing and getting diced is fun.  If I take pleasure in beating people less experienced than me, I should relish getting beaten by people who are better than I am.

Hop on a plane this winter and come up to the war room, Wolfie. We can play for hours on end and when we need a break we can go outside and you can experience what -40 degrees feels like. When was the last time you built a snowman?

@GeneralHandGrenade:

Hop on a plane this winter and come up to the war room, Wolfie. We can play for hours on end and when we need a break we can go outside and you can experience what -40 degrees feels like. When was the last time you built a snowman?

Are you asking me if I want to build a snowman? Are you singing?

Well, I’m not sure I’m up for -40 degree weather, but if you’re up to coming to the Florida coast inbetween all our Hurricanes, the Wolf has some spacious maps with all those extra units too you know! Do you want to build a sandman?