UK Strategy -"Middle Earth"

1. With the posted UK1 build of 1 fighter + 2 infantry, that leaves a bit more money to spend on UK2 if a sea lion appears to be in progress.  That means that London will have another fighter or two built for defense.  A fighter defends worse than 3 infantry, but it isn’t quite as big of a deal as you would imagine because Germany will need some more defense of their invasion fleet because you have an additional potential scrambler.  The chance of sea lion goes way down if there is an initial bid so that Scotland gets a bonus fighter.

2. It isn’t too reasonable to ask people to travel to northern BC… not many of us are within a 10 hour drive, or will have other reasons to come within a 10 hour drive of your town.  You can master TripleA in far less than 20 hours! I agree that it isn’t as fun as face-to-face games but driving that far isn’t that fun either (or cheap for that matter).  If you were within a few hours of a major metropolitan area, the invite would be much more feasible.

3. I agree that building a naval base in Persia is not going to be game-changingly bad in most situations.  It isn’t that costly and there definitely should be some benefits of shucking troops from South Africa.  That can’t possibly be a major flaw in the plan.  The big issue is that a good Axis player should be able to win 70+% of the time against an equally skilled Allied player.  The flexibility of the Axis air forces to push power in one direction while still defending in the other direction gives a huge advantage in a no-bid / no-BM game.

GHG, drive down to Seattle. We’ve got our annual Portland vs Seattle coming up. We’ll be more than happy to add Canada vs Seattle annually too!

Marsh

@Argothair:

I dunno; I think you’re just wrong that we can’t see how great your strategy is until we try it. You like your strategy, and you beat your usual opponents in northern British Columbia, and you have fun with it, and that’s all fine, but the reasons you give to support your strategy don’t make any sense.

And just how do you know there isn’t a secret cadre of excellent A&A players in northern British Columbia, eh?  :evil:

Marsh

@Argothair:

EDIT: I see that there have been some new responses since I started typing this, but I’ve got to run to a capella practice. I’ll return to the new comments late tonight or tomorrow!

Also, to honor GHG’s challenge to spell out exactly how I would defeat a pure Middle Earth strategy, here’s an outline of the first four turns for the Axis.

G1: Attack Paris, strafe Yugoslavia, and retreat into Romania. Attack British fleets in SZ 110 and 111. Send 2 subs to attack British cruiser in SZ 91. Activate Bulgaria and Finland. Ship 2 infantry to reinforce Norway. Build 1 transport and 1 destroyer in SZ 112; build 1 inf, 1 art in Berlin.

J1: Attack Yunnan and Hunnan; seize undefended Chinese territories. Build a factory in Shanghai and two transports near Tokyo. Stack most of the Japanese fleet near Hainan, with one loaded carrier, 1 DD, and 1 SS in Caroline Islands and 1 DD in Tokyo. March troops counter-clockwise from Korea through Manchuria and Shanghai toward Hong Kong.

I1: Don’t scramble against Taranto. Use planes and remaining fleet to sink any British ships in the Adriatic Sea that are left over from Taranto. Attack Yugoslavia with all slow units from North Italy and Albania. Send fast units east toward Romania to act as can-openers. Stack all east African units in Kenya. Stack all north African troops that can reach in Alexandria, and move Libya units to Tobruk. Build 1 transport in the Adriatic Sea, save $3.

G2: Reinforce Alexandria with about 5 planes, depending on strength of British forces in Egypt. Attack Normandy and Southern France. Attack and take Greece; sink French fleet with air power and any surviving subs. Declare war on Russia, take Baltic States, East Poland, and Bessarabia, start marching virtually all troops east – leave about 5 ground units near Paris to help defend western front. Use Baltic fleet to reinforce Baltic States stack. March Finnish army to Vyborg. Build 2 inf, 8 art in Berlin and about 3 inf, 1 art, 3 mech, 1 tnk in West Germany. Land any air not otherwise accounted for in West Germany.

J2: Declare war on UK & US. Seize Hong Kong with ground units, re-take Yunnan, and send 1 inf from Siam to claim French Indo-China. Use transports to claim Borneo, Malaya (2 transports), and Philippines (2 transports). If Malaya has been evacuated, can redirect 1 transport from Malaya to Sumatra. Use air power to support amphibious assaults and clear out any Allied boats in range of Hainan. Build 1 inf, 1 art, 1 mech in Shanghai, naval base in Hainan, and use remaining cash to build 1 destroyer and then more transports in Tokyo.

I2: Declare war on Russia. If Russia left a thin defense in Ukraine or Western Ukraine, can-open there. Attack and conquer Egypt with the Alexandria stack, two loaded transports, and the entire Italian air force. Move all remaining European units northeast toward Russian front. Move Tobruk units to Alexandria. If Kenyan stack still exists, either occupy Congo or attack a convenient British stack of two infantry. Land planes in Alexandria, build two new transports in Adriatic Sea.

G3: Continue pressing east toward Kiev and Bryansk. Use Baltic fleet to bring 3 inf, 1 art from West Germany to Leningrad; support attack on Leningrad with stacks from Vyborg and Baltic States. If Britain is still trying to stack 3 planes in Jordan with only 1 artillery defending them, as shown in the YouTube video, then use 5 planes from Alexandria plus 2 strategic bombers from West Germany to air-blitz and destroy the British planes. Land survivors in Cairo if appropriate. Stack up any mechs and tanks that survived the battle of Paris in East Poland. Build 9 mechs, 1 tank in Berlin.

J3: Because of naval base at Hainan, the majority of the Japanese fleet is in range of India. If India is weak, take India. Otherwise, deliver 5 loaded transports to Burma with bombardments and air support, wiping out any British that might have been left to guard it. Make conservative attacks as needed in China, slowly pressing China westward. Retreat Caroline islands fleet toward Hainan, and bring Tokyo transports loaded with remaining Tokyo infantry, possibly some Manchurian / Okinawan infantry to French Indochina (you are merging the Tokyo transports with the Caroline warships at the Hainan naval base). Use Tokyo destroyer to screen attacks from Hawaii if necessary. Land all planes on either carriers near Burma or on French Indo-China so all planes are in range of India for J4. Build 1 inf, 1 art, 1 mech in Shanghai, 1 or 2 destroyers in Tokyo, and use remaining cash for infantry in Tokyo.

I3: Retake or reinforce Egypt using 1 inf, 1 art from Alexandria, your two new loaded transports carrying troops from North Italy / Yugoslavia, and your air force. Use can-openers to take Kiev or Bryansk if appropriate. If Kenya/Congo force is still alive, attack Sudan. Build will vary depending on your income and whether British has multiple ground units remaining in Africa – if Britain is doing well, build 2 new transports and enough infantry to load them. If the position is balanced, build fighters. If Italy is doing well, build a minor factory in Egypt.

G4: Retake or reinforce Leningrad and Kiev with enough units to permanently hold them. Clear out any units in Archangel, Belarus, Smolensk, Bryansk, and Rostov other than Russia’s main stack. Stack majority of German army no more than 2 spaces away from Moscow, e.g., in Belarus. If appropriate, use air force in Alexandria/Egypt to pick off under-defended British boats near Suez Canal. Build as many defensive infantry as needed in Paris / West Germany, and then build fighters in West Germany or Germany for flexible use as either defenders of western front or attackers in Moscow. Expected income is 30 base + 9 from France + 6 from Finland/Greece/Bulgaria + 15 from conquered Russian territories + 5 for Norwegian NO + 5 for Leningrad NO = 70 IPCs.

J4: Attack and conquer India with Burmese troops, loaded transports at Hainan, fleet bombardments, and entire Japanese air force. Send destroyers and subs east to harass ANZAC, or, if American Pacific fleet is concentrated near Australia, send destroyers and subs north to screen off the Chinese sea zones. If British stack retreated to West India, attack that stack too using available forces. Continue making conservative attacks on Chinese troops (1 or 2 attacks per turn), with a focus on destroying vulnerable concentrations of Chinese infantry rather than on taking territory. Build 1 inf, 1 art, 1 tank in Shanghai (the tank will eventually catch up with your earlier mech. inf. builds and help them blitz through west China). If Americans are attacking Japan in earnest, build one destroyer and 9 infantry in Tokyo. Otherwise, build loaded transports with destroyer escorts as needed to prepare for capture of Java, Sumatra, and Dutch New Guinea. Expected income is 26 base + 2 from France + 8 from new Chinese territories + 16 from UK Pacific + 2 from USA + 5 from India NO = 59 IPCs.

I4: Expand base of power from Egypt to Jordan, Iraq, Syria, and Sudan. If facing major American threat from Gibraltar, build infantry and/or destroyers to defend Rome. Otherwise, build minor factory in Egypt if not yet present. Once Egypt is controlled with a minor factory, shuck two transports from Rome to Jordan every turn (total of four transports needed in fleet), so you are delivering 2 + 2 + 3 = 7 ground units a turn to the Suez region, outnumbering the 5 to 6 ground units produced by Britain in South Africa + Persia. Expected income is 10 base + 2 from Yugoslavia + 6 from Middle East + 2 from sub-Saharan Africa + 5 from Mare Nostrum NO + 5 from New Roman Empire NO + 2 from Iraqi oil = 32 IPCs.

Middlegame Strategy vs. KJF: At this point, all of your powers have a healthy income, you will have taken either India or Egypt and possibly both, and you have some momentum toward taking either Moscow or Persia or both. If America is coming hard against Japan, you’ll need to return the bulk of the Japanese fleet and air force to the Pacific immediately after taking India. You’re only two turns away – India’s naval base means a one-turn move to Hainan (J5), and Hainan’s naval base means a one-turn move to Shanghai or Tokyo (J6). You can build a couple of carriers off the coast of Shanghai to strengthen the fleet as it returns, and land some extra planes on the new carriers. America can seize some moderately important Japanese territories before your fleet returns, but not enough to knock Japan out of the game. You still have your transports, the bulk of your air force, and the bulk of your fleet, and you’re not over-extended anywhere. Meanwhile, German forces can swing clockwise through Rostov, Caucasus, and northwest Persia. The British Persian factory will be nearly overwhelmed from Italian pressure alone, so as soon as Germany arrives, Persia will fall. At that point the Axis will own Europe, Leningrad, Archangel, Stalingrad, the Middle East, India, southeast Asia, and the Chinese coast – more than enough to ensure a permanent economic edge.

Middlegame Strategy vs. KIF: If, instead, America goes hard against Italy, the Japanese will be free to press onward to Persia and occupy the Persian factory using the remains of the Japanese ground, sea, and air forces after the Indian campaign. Japan can build 2 inf, 1 art in India on J5 that can replace the casualties from the Indian campaign and ride on otherwise empty transports to support the J6 attack on Persia. If appropriate, Japan can build a minor factory in West India so as to funnel up to 9 units a turn (India + West India + Persia) north toward Stalingrad and Kazakh to help overwhelm Russia. At about this time, Japanese armies in China should be breaking through the last of the western Chinese defenses, linking up with the Indian forces in central Asia. Italy will need to build nothing but infantry and try to sit and hold Rome and Milan, but Japan has the Middle East under control, so that’s fine. Germany can build a few infantry in France / Western Germany while spending most of its economy on strategic bombers on G5 and G6 to set up for a G7 Moscow kill. Deprived of income and with no remaining fighter routes from New York / London, Moscow will not be able to accumulate enough of a defensive reserve to withstand the G7 attack. If desired, the Japanese warships can sail through the Suez Canal to help defend Rome – you don’t need the transports, so the warships can sail to the Red Sea on J6 and reach Rome on J7. America may eventually be able to take Rome anyway, but Britain’s economy will be anemic – they’ve invested (and lost) most of their money in the southern hemisphere, and so they won’t have a large enough Atlantic fleet to seriously threaten France, Denmark, or Norway. After taking Moscow, the Axis can shift all of their production to the western front, building mostly defensive infantry until the German tank survivors return around G10, allowing the Germans to push the Allies back out of Rome.

This strategy of yours is superb! I can’t wait to try it!

Are there any online players who actually use your strategy, GHG?

I played against someone who used a similar strategy, building up a huge force in the Middle East to block German movement into that theater.  The flexibility of the UK air force to reinforce Moscow made it impossible to affordably take down that capitol.  India also became a difficult place to threaten.  Eventually I saved up the German money for a round and then plopped down a huge Sea Lion assault force to capture London!  The American fleet was out of position in the Med to block the attack.

It is easier to execute these sneak attacks during a face-to-face game.

In your experience, how well does this strategy work if India falls early say J4? If Japan does a focused amphibious landing against India early, by the time the transport shuck has been established only 1 transport shipment of troops will have arrived in the middle east UK4. There is not one strategy that is perfect, but a lot of concern seems to be directed towards Italy’s ability to threaten Egypt. I would counter this argument by saying that the amount of aircraft present in the mediterranean would give the UK the firepower needed to recapture Egypt if it fell. Additionally German aircraft would be out of position and unable to support early attacks in Russia. The real problem this strategy has, as has been identified, is large amphibious landings by the axis. It does not work against sea lion and it does not work against a calcutta crush. Sea Lion is pretty weak, but a naval landing in India is not unheard of.

My criticism is that I don’t think this strategy effectively reinforces India in time. Units moving from Eastern Persia to India are not fast and only 1 or 2 waves could arrive by J6. The incremental advantages gained in the long term from a transport shuck are really strong, but how can you save India with this strategy against determined Japanese attack?

GHG, I’m in the middle of a game right now in which I have opted to play the Middle Earth strategy. Germany has gone full Sea Lion, while Japan has failed the attempt for Calcutta, and failed to hold the money islands. You outlined perfectly how to counter the axis forces, and I am now in a position to destroy the German navy, and feed the Soviet advance. UK has enough residual forces left in the Middle East and North Africa to hold of the weak Italians. I don’t see how someone could argue against this UK strategy. In my experience the Middle East has been a power house for any power that controls it.

I guess the problem is that the strategy is so similar to the standard strategy of the UK taking the Middle East and strengthening it. The only real variation is the two transport shuck with the naval base and Iraq UK1 instead of UK2. Neither of those things have any discernible reason.

This hardly fought game between Me1945 and I was pretty much Middle Earth:

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=39992.480

The concept of support between Middle East, Moscow and India was definitely exploited.

That looked like a fun game between two great players, Omega.  Having the +30 Allied bid, including the often-disallowed New Guinea build, made a significant difference.  I still scratch my head that some people think that the game is intrinsically balanced sans bid or mod.

So, thank you for sharing the game, Omega1759 – but I couldn’t help but notice that you didn’t attack Iraq until turn 3, and you didn’t build a naval base in Persia.

These are really the two points I’m arguing with GHG about: the UK1 attack on Iraq, and the UK2 naval base in Persia. The rest of the strategy mostly seems reasonable – the middle east is obviously an important region of the board, and trying to reinforce it by building units in South Africa is obviously a reasonable choice. I just don’t see how the specific tactics of UK1 attack on Iraq or the UK2 naval base in Persia add any value to the overall strategic plan of strengthening the middle east.

GHG, in a dice game like Axis & Allies, even the craziest strategies can work once in a while, and slightly sub-optimal strategies can work as much as 40% of the time. I think your version of Middle Earth is slightly but clearly sub-optimal: you’re telling us to do two important things (attack Iraq round 1 + build a naval base in Persia) that are clearly worse than Britain’s available alternatives. I’ve written about two full pages spelling out why I think the alternatives are clearly worse, and your only real response has been to say “try it” or “come to British Columbia.” Instead of responding to the specific arguments people are making against your strategy, you’re just repeating the contents of your original post, and telling people to trust you. I don’t think you’ve earned our trust! Part of the problem is that trying your tactics once won’t prove anything. I could play your strategy out exactly as you suggest, and it could win, because your strategy isn’t shit, it’s just slightly sub-optimal. I could play your strategy 5 times and win 3 of my games, depending on how the dice go and how strong my opponents are. That doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t have won 4 out of 5 games if I’d used a better strategy. The only experimental way to determine the effectiveness of a strategy is to play at least 5 full games using strategy A and 5 full games using strategy B, for a total of over 100 hours of gaming.

So, you don’t have to defend the theory behind your tactics if you don’t want to – but don’t be offended if people aren’t willing to invest 100+ hours into trying out tactics that you’re not even willing to put 1 hour into debating on paper.

@Arthur:

That looked like a fun game between two great players, Omega.  Having the +30 Allied bid, including the often-disallowed New Guinea build, made a significant difference.  I still scratch my head that some people think that the game is intrinsically balanced sans bid or mod.Â

It definitely isn’t 30 is not even enough. I would say 45 is more reasonable to even things out.

@Omega1759:

@Arthur:

That looked like a fun game between two great players, Omega.�  Having the +30 Allied bid, including the often-disallowed New Guinea build, made a significant difference.�  I still scratch my head that some people think that the game is intrinsically balanced sans bid or mod.�

It definitely isn’t 30 is not even enough. I would say 45 is more reasonable to even things out.

Besides playoff games, there aren’t that many G40 games with bids 30+ that I’m aware of.  That makes it a pretty small sample size. Perhaps 30 is about right. It seems that 20-25 isn’t enough statistically though.

My only real problem with a G40 game with a bid is the SBR rules. Perhaps I get too agitated about it, but they aren’t right in G40.2 to my way of thinking at least.

Tried it out and it seems to be every bit as effective as it’s made to be. My thoughts to beating it are about not caring about the Middle East. When I win with the axis it’s because you push for economic advantage and then maintain.

You can make Japan an IPC monster without taking India. Just keep them at 0 dollars by bombing the crap out of them. While China and rake Russia’s back door.

Taking the Middle East for Axis is like a win more strategy that puts the nail in the coffin. You can drop Russia to Nothing by turtling them in Moscow and clean up their IPCs. You should be able to get Germany and Japan roughly 70+ without winning the game. In the process Italy should be around 20. So that’s like 160 IPC. You’re left with USA 70+, ANZAC 10, UK 35-40. So it’ll be 160 to 120. You’ve already won if yo can maintain your gains. Just play the long game at that point. So you don’t take Calcutta in 7 turns. You’ll get there. Shift your focus away from winning all out to winning by attrition.

Interesting Pinch1. What did the UK do in this area before you tried the strategy? I put down a Persia factory UK2 and attack Iraq UK2, and just build ground units normally.