6 French Resistance units 2 per each city they act like fighters but can only attack one unit per guy. The number of French units in the space is the number they have to roll to hit. Example: 2 Infantry each one rolls for a two or less. Ideas? feedback?
Fixing Sea / Air Unit Issues (Strategic Bombers and Cruisers)
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Cruisers and Strategic Bombers seem to be the two big problems with this game. Only issue is you can’t fix them in isolation. Changing cruisers impacts Battleships, and changing Strategic Bombers impacts Fighters and Tactical Bombers.
There have been many good suggestions on these forums, including adding a 1914 style “air combat” round first. My issue with it is that it overly complicates and completely transforms the game. Interesting in theory, much tougher in practice. So assuming we work in the current framework, here seem to be the issues:
Strategic Bombers:
Bombers use to fill the role of Strategic and Tactical bombers. Now that we have two different types, the remaining Strategic bombers seem ill-purposed. Tactical bombers fulfill the role of dive bombers who engage in combat; Strategic heavy bombers on the other hand focused almost entirely on industry with perhaps minor roles softening up enemy positions and convoy raiding. Strategies like Dark Skies see this unit’s range get abused allowing Strategic bombers to have absurd roles, breaking the game if not in fact but in spirit.
Strategic bombers role should be predominantly industry, bases, and convoy raiding, with only minor elements of gameplay combat. Tactical bombers should focus on combat, with fighters providing support and protection for both types of bombers.
Cruisers
The unit has no standout ability and is overpriced, making it a nonsensical purchase as it currently is. Many have discussed adding an anti-air ability to the unit, however others have pointed out that Battleships had the same armament on this front. How to make the unit relevant?
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My thoughts:
Cruisers should be slightly cheaper (11IPCs) but to incentivize both Battleships and Cruisers, both ships should have a pre-combat roll of anti-air at 1, up to the number of planes attacking. So 1 fighter and 2 tactical bombers attacking a Battleship and a Cruiser would yield 2 anti-air rolls before combat; if only 1 tactical bomber attacked the Battleship and Cruiser only 1 anti-air roll would be rolled. Why would this incentivize Cruiser purchases if both ships have anti-air? 2 Cruisers and 1 Battleship vs 2 Battleships is only 2IPCs more for another anti-air roll before combat. Though both ships defend against air, Cruisers are the option if you really want to give your fleet anti-air protection because you can get more of them.
Strategic bombers meanwhile should have their combat abilities significantly curtailed. Attack of 4 should be dropped to 2, which is much more realistic based on the fact that they were not effective in this role. Cost should also be dropped to 11IPCs to reflect this decline. However, Strategic Bombers can now in addition to attacking industry and bases attack convoys to bleed a nation of their treasure (it must be within flight range, so they can return to base).
Tactical bombers and Fighters will also see an ability and cost decline to reflect proportionality. Basically planes are less powerful, but more affordable.
Here are the revised units and abilities:
Strategic Bombers:
Attack: 2
Defend: 1
Cost: 11
Ability: Convoying, Strategic and Tactical Bombing, SBR attack at 1Tactical bombers:
Attack: 3, 4 w/combined arms
Defend: 2, can’t intercept
Cost: 10
Ability: Tactical BombingFighters:
Attack: 2
Defend: 3
Cost: 8
Ability: Intercept/Escort SBR at 2.Cruisers:
Attack: 3
Defend: 3
Cost: 11
Abilities: Bombardment and single Anti-Air Roll at 1 before combat, one roll per ship.Battleships:
Attack: 4
Defend: 4
Cost: 20
Abilities: Bombardment and single Anti-Air Roll at 1 before combat, one roll per ship.Carriers can now also hold 3 Fighters/Strategic Bombers.
Thoughts?
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New Modification: Keep the costs and carrier space the same for the planes, just tweak some more their abilities. Keep tactical fighters pretty much the same, make fighters worse on offense; keep them as powerful defenders and interceptors. Strategic bombers can’t defend but can be taken as casualties; they can economically attack territories too in a similar approach as convoying. Roll 3-6 no damage, roll 1 one damage, 2 two damage. Can be intercepted fired at by anti-air if applicable.
Strategic Bombers:
Attack: 2
Defend: 0
Cost: 12
Ability: Strategic and Tactical Bombing, SBR at 1. 1D6 +3. Can be taken as casualties in defense.
Economic warfare: Can strategically bomb territory and take income. Can be escorted and intercepted by fighters in neighboring countries, also fired at by anti-air in that territory. Roll of 3-6 no damage, 1 one IPC damage, 2 two IPCs damage. Economic bombing + convoying cannot take more than full IPC value of territory.Tactical bombers:
Attack: 3, 4 w/combined arms
Defend: 3, can’t intercept
Cost: 11
Ability: Tactical Bombing 1D6Fighters:
Attack: 2
Defend: 4
Cost: 10
Ability: Intercept/Escort SBR at 2. -
As I write this I regret responding at the same time. I think there was no reason to start a new thread on this topic as it was just basically re-debated for the umpteenth time.
“both ships should have a pre-combat roll of anti-air at 1, up to the number of planes attacking.” You’re describing even more dice than the amount of dice AAA guns get to throw. Limit the number of dice, like maximum of 2 or 3 dice per ship, but no more dice than attacking planes present. I prefer 2 dice. So, if 6 planes attack 2 cruisers, only 4 AAA dice get thrown.
Also, I’d prefer not to lower the price of the cruiser to 11 while adding AAA guns even if Battleships also get AAA dice. I’d rather buy a cruiser and a destroyer if the cruiser was priced at 11 IPCs cause I’d still get the AAA dice. I’d rather get to throw 2 normal dice (destroyer and cruiser) in defense rather than 1 battleship dice.
I would accept house rules for the following: � Cruiser costs 12 IPCs, and gets 2 AAA dice per ship, or Cruiser costs 10 IPCs, but no AAA guns. No AAA guns for battleships period. I don’t care about the fact that battleships and cruisers had similar weapons. This is Axis and Allies, not Bolt Action. Everything is representational for types of units and organizations. Besides, to be specific, destroyers were the ships that carried more AAA guns for defense of carriers and battleships, (as well as their anti-submarine capabilities). Cruisers were designed for shore bombardments. Battleships were designed for surface warfare. The AAA dice idea was just to make the cruiser more purchasable. Let’s not overdo it. 12 IPCs and 2 AAA dice, or 10 IPCs, but no AAA dice.
Leave the Bombers alone. It’s not as broken as you think. I still buy lots of tac. bombers to save 1 IPC. If no one bought tac. bombers or fighters, than the bomber might be broken. On the flipside, I kind of think fighters are broken, cause of their strong defense. UK can land a huge stack of much cheaper fighters after a US landing, which then immediately negates a German stack of expensive bombers. I kind of think fighters should attack and defend @3. Their mobility still warrants the much higher price of 10 IPCs compared to a tank. I’m not going to advocate that, just trying to show how the air units should be left alone.
Germany never had strategic bombers anyways during the war. Lastly, I’ve yet to experience the “Dark Skies,” strategy. I think it rare. Sounds like an Axis and Allies forum Urban legend. I don’t think Germany can get London or Moscow by buying mostly bombers. �
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Piscolar,
I think you’re changing the game too much with the strategic bombers. The rules you’re proposing seriously changes the game mechanics. It would take a completely new rule book, and you probably would not find anyone willing to play that change.
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[“both ships should have a pre-combat roll of anti-air at 1, up to the number of planes attacking.” You’re describing even more dice than the amount of dice AAA guns get to throw. Limit the number of dice, like maximum of 2 or 3 dice per ship, but no more dice than attacking planes present. I prefer 2 dice. So, if 6 planes attack 2 cruisers, only 4 AAA dice get thrown.]
This was poorly written on my part. Was trying to say the same thing as you (actually, even less - if 6 planes attack 2 Cruisers, only 2 AAA dice get thrown).
Also, I agree with you about Fighters being too powerful. Air in general needs a rework - far too inexpensive based on what it’s able to accomplish. Tactical bombers, being new, oddly enough seem the most reasonable units of the three.
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Try a test game with only your Cruiser changes and keep figs cost at 10 but change to A3 D3. ( This may hurt Japan )
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I concur with SS. Game test out just a small tweak, like cruisers and fighters being A3 D3. If you can find people to play those house rule changes for 3 about table top games, then you might have real insight into these house rule ideas.
Already though, I think Fighters not being d4 might be too much for the allies who really depend on that unit. In general, I think air units are best left alone.
I’m ok with air being represented so strong in the game. Air superiority was so important in WW II, as was the capability, that every country thought it important enough to create a completely separate branch of service. (Army Air Corp was in function a diff branch than the Army). I say this as a Soldier with “fun in nature” inter-service rivalry. Â
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Interesting thoughts, thanks for the feedback! The game is so complex you can only really see how things play out by testing it - and gradually, to control for the variables.
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About AAA, the simpler is to keep OOB cost for Cruiser and BB.
Just add a full AAA capacity, 1 @1 preemptive up to three planes which ever the lesser.
Same mechanics as if an AAA is on SZ for each BB or Cruiser.
It kills 2 target with 1 stone, it really provides some defense against Dark Sky too.
That way, you can keep OOB StBs.Introducing a new way to do Convoy Raid with StBs is clearly a different beast.
About cheaper Fgs and TcBs, I made many experiments to reach optimized features with less complexity increase.
My best HR is Fg A2 D2 M4 C7, always hit planes first, A2 D2 in SBR and TBR escort and intercept.
TcB is A3 D2 M4 C8, pick any ground casualty, no combined arms A2 in TBR.
It imply three planes Carrier with a slightly higher defense:
Fleet carrier A0 D3 2 hits, hold 3 planes can still carry 1 plane if damaged.The main issue when introducing three planes carrier is to keep a similar balance ratio between offense and defense to not change too much the naval defensive advantage over offense.
If you want to try your opening post Fgs and TcBs, I suggest to drop the combined arms for TcBs and be straight forward A3 D2 C10.
Also, vs cheaper Fg A2 D3 C8 both units will have their specialized action: Tc bomber for offence and Fg for defense.
So full 3 planes Carrier A0 D2 2 hits C16 will reach these min/max values: A9 D8 5 hits C46 vs A6 D11 5 hits C40.I can tell that 3 planes carrier and cheaper planes adds a more historical feel in PTO naval combat because there is more casualty taken on planes and less on warships, DD or Cruiser.
HTH.
Baron -
Nice. Baron, I knew you would chime in. :wink:
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Great thoughts Baron. I like what you did there - it’s simple.
Still have an issue with the power and range of Strategic Bombers though. Have you experimented with anything on that front?
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Thinking something like this:
Strategic Bombers:
Attack: 3 (Land) / 2 (Naval); Must target Ground/Naval units first.
Defend: 0
Cost: 10
Ability: Strategic and Tactical Bombing, in SBR A1. 1D6 +2. Can be taken as casualties in defense.4 just seems too high on offense with their range. Having a hard time getting past that. That punch should be reserved for Battleships who are quite appropriately costly. A big fleet of bombers getting hit by Cruiser anti-air and then fleet fighters would be eviscerated in real life; should be reflected.
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I agree that attack of 4 is way too high, they just weren’t that effective (or should I say accurate) against moving units (land or sea).
I would propose simple change of Attack 2, but as with Battleships, they can sustain 1 hit of damage - this is repaired at an airbase. For strategic bombing raids, if a StrB takes an AA hit and was undamaged, then
the bomber aborts the mission. If it was damaged before the AA hit, then it is destroyed. -
Great thoughts Baron. I like what you did there - it’s simple.
Still have an issue with the power and range of Strategic Bombers though. Have you experimented with anything on that front?
Thanks.
Sorry, I did not try anything for StBs.
I suggested a way to reduced their range but nobody reply.
So, it is probably too much calculations and creates some issues for carrier operations.
It was simply formulated: for each plane making a combat move over a SZ, it costs 2 move points, non-combat move remains 1 point per TTy or SZ. -
Thinking something like this:
Strategic Bombers:
Attack: 3 (Land) / 2 (Naval); Must target Ground/Naval units first.
Defend: 0
Cost: 10
Ability: Strategic and Tactical Bombing, in SBR A1. 1D6 +2. Can be taken as casualties in defense.4 just seems too high on offense with their range. Having a hard time getting past that. That punch should be reserved for Battleships who are quite appropriately costly. A big fleet of bombers getting hit by Cruiser anti-air and then fleet fighters would be eviscerated in real life; should be reflected.
An A3 StB probably change things and allows to rebalance and keep StBs in their more historical role.
Even if you lower the attack to 2, it remains a game mechanic aberration when a flight of StBs only launch an assault on a few boats with scrambling Fgs or Fgs on Carriers.
It is difficult to figure how it is possible that some planes can be taken as casualty.
OOB, you can get, during finale sequence of battle, a few StBs attacking @4 vs Fgs Defending @4.I don’t know if it is possible to bend rules somehow so StBs cannot hit other planes over SZ in naval combat.
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@Baron:
… I don’t know if it is possible to bend rules somehow so StBs cannot hit other planes over SZ in naval combat.
hmm… that sounds interesting. You’d probably have to have naval fighters and Tacs that couldn’t be hit by bmbrs.
@piscolar:…4 just seems too high on offense with their range. Having a hard time getting past that. That punch should be reserved for Battleships who are quite appropriately costly. A big fleet of bombers getting hit by Cruiser anti-air and then fleet fighters would be eviscerated in real life; should be reflected.
A fairly simple change I used a while back was make bmbrs A3 +1 w/ftr D1 M6 +1w/AB C12. Also gave CAs 2 AA shots.
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Taking most of Baron’s suggestions to heart and will be trying them out. To maintain balance, I’ve counted the IPCs lost in unit value from starting countries and given them those IPCs back to redeploy more units of their choice in any of the territories whose units were affected (up to 30IPCs, to avoid excessive stacking).
Additionally, I’ve given Cruisers and Battleships Tactical Bombardment which means they may damage facilities (except industrial complexes) in bombardments. They do, however, get fired upon by the facility’s battery - sort of like anti-air. So people won’t abuse the move, especially now that naval units are appropriately the most pricey.
Finally, I’ve added Fortified Positions and Fortified Zones. Details below, but these facilities act as extra protection for defending units. This is necessary now, as planes don’t provide the defense they use to.
Strategic Bombers
Attack: 3 (Land) / 2 (Naval)
Defend: 0
Cost: 10
Ability: Strategic and Tactical Bombing, at A1. 1D6+2. Can be taken as casualties in defense. Heavy bomber tech, roll two dice in an attack, take the best result.
Notes: Cannot target air-units.Tactical Bombers
Attack: 2, 3 with combined arms (only if ground/naval units are present)
Defend: 2
Cost: 8
Ability: Tactical Bombing, at A2. 1D6.
Notes: Must target ground/naval units first.Fighters
Attack: 2
Defend: 2
Cost: 7
Ability: Intercept/Escort Strategic and Tactical bombing at A2/D2. Fighter Tech increases Defense in regular combat and intercepting/escorting to 3.
Notes: Must target air units first.Cruisers
Anti-Air Ability: Cruisers have anti-air ability, functioning exactly like an AAA gun on a ship. Each Cruiser in the Sea Zone may fire up to three shots against attacking planes, but each attacking air unit may be fired upon only once. Anti-air rolls do not stop cruisers from defending that round. Cruiser anti-air fires only once, after submarine sneak-attacks and before the first round of regular combat. If a Cruiser is sunk in a submarine sneak attack, it does not roll for anti-air. If anti-air hits, the attacker chooses which unit(s) to remove before regular combat begins.
Tactical Bombardment: Cruisers may now fire on Naval and Air bases as well as Fortified Positions and Fortified Zones. If they survive the Defensive Battery, they roll 1D6 damage on the facility. A Cruiser participating in a Tactical Bombardment may not participate in any other combat that turn. If there are any ships excluding submarines and transports in any Sea Zone touching the facility, Tactical Bombardment may not occur.
Carriers
Extra Space: Carriers can now fit three fighters/tactical bombers on them; if damaged they can still carry and field one.
Battleships
Tactical Bombardment: Battleships may now fire on Naval and Air bases as well as Fortified Positions and Fortified Zones. If they survive the Defensive Battery, they roll 1D6+2 damage on the facility. A Battleship participating in a Tactical Bombardment may not participate in any other combat that turn. If there are any ships excluding submarines and transports in any Sea Zone touching the facility, Tactical Bombardment may not occur.
All Facilities
Defensive Battery: All facilities are able to defend against the tactical bombardments of their facilities by Cruisers and Battleship with their defensive battery. Before regular combat but after Bombardment has been declared, each facility under attack will have their defensive battery roll one die per ship. If it hits at 1, the bombarding ship will suffer a hit before bombardment. If sunk, it will not roll for bombardment. Advanced Artillery technology makes these Coastal Defenses defend at 2.
Fortified Position
Cost: 4
Ability: Up to five infantry, mech infantry, and/or artillery units in a territory with a Fortified Position have an increased defense +1 (defend at 3). Fortified Positions can be built on any territory controlled since the beginning of your turn. You may only build one Fortified Position per territory, however, it may be upgraded to a Fortified Zone for an additional 4IPCs. Fortified Positions, like air/naval bases, can be damaged by tactical bombing and bombardment (additionally, like these units they roll for anti-air and shore battery in defense). Fortified Positions have 10 possible damage points; they cease to be operationally effective immediately after sustaining 5 or more damage points. Fortified Positions can be repaired during the repair-units phase of a turn. They are not destroyed when a territory is captured. Note: Tanks and Mech Infantry may not blitz through an unoccupied Fortified Position.
Fortified Zone
Cost: 7
Ability: Up to ten infantry, mech infantry, and/or artillery units in a territory with a Fortified Zone have an increased defense +1 (defend at 3). Fortified Zones can be built on any territory controlled since the beginning of your turn. You may only build one Fortified Zone per territory.
Fortified Zones, like air/naval bases, can be damaged by tactical bombing and bombardment (additionally, like these units they roll for anti-air and battery in defense). Fortified Zones have 20 possible damage points; they cease to be operationally effective immediately after sustaining 10 or more damage points. Fortified Zones can be repaired during the repair-units phase of a turn. They are not destroyed when a territory is captured; however, they are immediately downgraded to a Fortified Position. Note: Tanks and Mech Infantry may not blitz through an unoccupied Fortified Zone.
Air Bases
Detail Change: If an airbase is damaged inoperably in a tactical bombing, planes cannot be scrambled from that airbase later that turn to defend in a neighboring sea zone. If planes were assigned to scramble and the airbase was subsequently damaged, those planes are grounded and may not participate in a scramble defense. They may still defend their own territory.
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Reflecting historical reality, I added at game start Fortified Positions to Southern France, Poland, Slovakia-Hungary, Bessarabia, Eastern Poland, Baltic States, Gibraltar, Malta, and Malaysia. I’ve also added Fortified Zones to France, Western Germany, and Northern Italy.
We shall see how all of this affects gameplay, but I’m excited! So many new tactics to take into consideration - do I use my bomber to attack his fortification, or his units? Can’t wait. :evil:
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W. E.
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This is a lot of changes.
I hope your fellow players are pretty much open toward house rules and not too much competitive.
A lot of your ideas have no small impact over balance.From my own experience, even a few tweaks on units with a single paper sheet to summarize all combat values and abilities takes 15 minutes to review and explains changes and selecting which ones are in and which are out.
Explaining all your changes will take longer.
I suggest you have small talk the days before with your friends to help everyone being on same page and have time to debate which house rules will be try.
Otherwise, a time cunsumming debate could take place instead of playing the game right on while everyone is sat there around the table…
Have fun. Part of the fun is also talking about introducing HR. -
Strategic Bombers
Attack: 3 (Land) / 2 (Naval)
Defend: 0
Cost: 10
Ability: Strategic and Tactical Bombing, at A1. 1D6+2. Can be taken as casualties in defense. Heavy bomber tech, roll two dice in an attack, take the best result.
Notes: Cannot target air-units.Do you mean planes are immune to StBs hit, same way as they are from Submarines?
If the case, I rather limit this immunity over SZs, not over TTy.
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