Sealion? Is there a perfict set up?

I have learnt a couple of things from my group’s attempts so far:

1). An alarmed UK can perfectly counter any SL, even without hurting itself too badly in Africa.
2). If GE buys 2 turns worth of ships and transports a 3rd turns’ worth of land units into London, Russia has a great opportunity of spreading communism into Eastern Europe.
3). A pyrrhic victory is to be avoided because otherwise the USA can easily liberate London US4.
4). GE loosing more aircraft than the UK has to be avoided.
5). IT2 can and should raid the UK AB if the axis decide to give it a go. Italy goes after the UK and therefore the AB cannot be repared before GE3 (invasion turn). No possible scramblers hurts the UK.
6). GE must keep some 75% of its luftwaffe alive during SL, otherwise Russia becomes unstoppable.

Regarding the above, ‘countering’ SL means for the UK that it must try to make sure that at least no more than 11 German units survive the SL battle if  US4 intervention looks promising. If the USA is hard pressed in the pacific, UK wants to lower GE survivors to about <=5, but better plan for a clear victory (requires to call a lot of med. forces back home).

In the last game me and some friends played as the axis, we took London by surprise. I told my German and Italian friends how I 'd see a surprise attack on London turn into a good axis game and luckily they were willing to try. Germany prepared for Barbarossa, buying 7ART and doing all the standard opening moves against the RN, France, etc. EVERYTHING looked like a typical preparation for a GE3 Barbarossa.
The UK was caught completely off guard when GE2 enough German troops marched back into Germany. GE2 bought 10TRS so we had 11 TRS total in 113 without protection, other than 1CA + 3FTR (Scramble). But no more protection is needed there if all the RN is gone.

London fell with 20 German units left. US3 sank all the kriegsmarine but that’s the price for having an unprotected SL. GE could have bought protection in the invasion turn if we wanted (placing a CV and/or DD in the channel at the Normandy IC and/or an AB in Holland) but Russia looked too strong so we decided on no more ship construction to Sac the Kriegsmarine. Kept all the Luftwaffe alive (2 lost during the opening AAA fire), so GE had a large garrison in London too big for the USA to overcome, because it was challenged too hard in the Pacific (Japan threatened to take and hold 6VC at once from turn 3 and onwards)…

I have found that Sealion tends to be a curse for Germany, unless it is one of those opportunistic grabs, like if Germany has a few transports available that were used to take Leningrad and the UK player lets his defense get lax in London.
However, a planned Sealion seems to spell doom for Germany. It takes so many resources to pull it off that oftentimes the Eastern Front will get neglected and Russia just has themselves a good old time.
Also, as stated before, if Germany wins London but has very little left to hold it, the US can usually easily liberate London. Then Germany is dealing with the “two front war”.
We had a game a while back where Germany took London and had a pretty decent size force to garrison it. The US fixed that problem by not bothering to liberate London. The US Navy crushed the Kreigsmarine and all those German men and tanks were stuck on England. Meanwhile, the US landed in France while the Russians kept hammering in the east and the two of them squeezed Germany into submission.

I think you would almost want to entice a Taranto raid when looking at pulling off Sea Lion so you don’t have to defeat the RAF when taking London (watch what you wish for lol). Taking out the sz91 cruiser is a good move for reasons you gave. I like the hit & run on sz111, to retreat the damaged German BB. I think you have a pretty good chance of this happening with units you posted, but with my luck they wouldn’t scramble and I would get 4/5 hits knocking out the British fleet in one round lol (damned dice, so unpredictable).

I like the carrier/bomber buy G1, to SBR London, and protect your transports, but it defiantly tips off the English when you mass a good size navy in sz112 along w/buying extra air power. With this German buy and placement, I think you are pretty transparent and any good UK player would keep the RAF close to home, and buy some inf, maybe another ftr. On the bright side you may have just spared the Italian fleet in the process, and the Germans won’t have to help out so much in the Med early on anyway (England still has some tricks up their sleeve). I think the carrier is a pretty normal G1 purchase, and I like consolidating the German fleet, and adding to it in sz112. I think you will have a pretty good fight over London on your hands though, and the US will be preparing for Europe.

Not saying it isn’t worth playing out, because it is ultimately up to you to buy all those transports G2. The carrier/bomber buy can be used to your advantage even if you abort the SL mission.

Whitshadw, I liked many of your opening moves, after that not so sure.

With your German buys, you have consented that the UK will most likely max defend England. You’re leaving both UK Atlantic transports alive, so this adds 4 more ground units to London. It’s a given that the UK will kill any surviving German subs, and bring in all available air to def London. UK1 I would hit sz96 (Ita dd/transport) with all air (hope not to lose the tac which lands on Gib if it survives), place the Med fleet in sz 92 w/2 ftrs (off Gib), but leave the Med dd in sz 94 to work as a blocker in conjunction with the French fleet in sz93. This will effectively block the Italians from getting to Gib, or using their navy to attack my Med fleet in sz 92 (denying them both NOs). Italy can use all air though, but if they do I lose the carrier and my planes go to Gib, then on to England (and Italy isn’t bombing my bases). My damaged BB off Scotland probably goes to sz104 (as much as it pains me lol) to block out the Germans from landing in Gib killing my air units. Do some def moves to hold off an Egyptian invasion attempt for a turn or two until things settle out. BTW if the Germans decide to air raid my Med fleet off Gib, then they can’t do Sea Lion (air out of position).

That’s just what UK can do, the US has some options like a couple loaded carriers in sz102, and bombers from E US doing an air raid on your German fleet in sz109. Bombers land on Erie activated w/UK mech UK1, and US carriers move up to land their planes. London w/max defense means very few German ground units left, and the Luftwaffe should be cut in half. The Pac will be interesting, but the Japanese can’t be everywhere. They can’t take Hawaii and India/Sidney at the same time, so it gives the allies a bit of breathing room (admittedly not much).

Very interesting thread/discussion!

A successfull Sea Lion is about the trickiest possible strategy for the Axis.
I find that the key to success for the axis in London is not to plan taking London, but (only) seize it if  the opportunity arises!
One way or the other, GE wants 70IPCs ready for GE2 to buy a timely 10TRS. Part of the ‘plan’ is not to alarm the UK, giving it a false sense of security. Attacking SZ106 with 2sub also helps a lot.

If the UK makes a tiny mistake, go for London, if it doesn’t, continue Barbarossa. No big deal  :wink:.

@ItIsILeClerc:

Very interesting thread/discussion!

A successfull Sea Lion is about the trickiest possible strategy for the Axis.
I find that the key to success for the axis in London is not to plan taking London, but (only) seize it if � the opportunity arises!
One way or the other, GE wants 70IPCs ready for GE2 to buy a timely 10TRS. Part of the ‘plan’ is not to alarm the UK, giving it a false sense of security. Attacking SZ106 with 2sub also helps a lot.

If the UK makes a tiny mistake, go for London, if it doesn’t, continue Barbarossa. No big deal � :wink:.

Agree! Only go for London in G2 if being invited. Difficult to say when an invitation starts exactly but a sea lion is certainly almost only a bad idea by definition against e.g. a 1 Fig 6 Inf build in UK1.

Even if they build 6inf and a fighter its still very possible.  It mostly matters how many other fighters they have left after scramble and/or attacking Italy.  You can go for the massive transport attack all once on turn 3 or you can do it in steps which I find much better.  You don’t need 10-12 transports to do a Sealion.  I actually find building the CV + 2TR on round 1 and then land 6 inf  in Scotland on round 2.  Then buy another CV + 4 TR + 2 Fighters to protect the split navy.  If you purchase 10 transports they are only used once unlike another CV which really protects your navy in London.  USA now has to really send a huge navy to compensate vs just one CV, BB, CA and 12 TR.

After round 2 if your 6 inf survived then you can do the sealion.  Make sure you bomb the IC on round 2.  If you need more units to do the sealion then add more to Scotland and do it on turn 4.  You might only need to buy 3 TR on round 2.  Depends on the situation.  Another plan is to take Erie with the 6 inf on round 2.  Then join the navy together and put 12-14 units in Scotland turn 3.  On Round 4 you can take UK with those 12-14 inf (Scotland, add some art if you want) + 7tanks + 7 inf from transports + planes.  If you want to stop sealion then stop attacking Italy on round 1 and keep the RAF at home…  A Pink Floyd song comes to mind, hehe  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F7Skgv62dU&feature=kp

Haha  :-D

Good song, Cyan!
A long time love of mine, Pink Floyd.

Last but not least: I agree. If the UK buys 6inf+1ftr and bring a lot into the med, London is still a very good option for Germany.
To add to the deception, you could buy all land GE1, buy all TRS GE2, and buy your TRS protection (if you want to protect them) GE3 in Normandy. Normandy has a minor IC that definately is axis controlled by GE3 and you can place a 2 CV + DD there if you want.

The (only!) problem I have with a planned Sea Lion (buying ships from GE1 already), is that the UK will see you coming and a good UK player will start chuckle at you  :lol:.
He/she will ‘bring the boys back home’, produce a lot of stuff in London and might barely survive, or GE takes London by loosing everything except that last tank (sort of), leaving GE way too vulnerable for Russia. Not to mention that the USA will liberate London pretty soon.

Germany starts wit subs in SZ 103, 108, 117, 118, 124.  The subs in 117 and 118 cannot hit 91. The subs in 103 and 108 are the only ones that can hit 91.  Now that leaves 117 which can only hit 106 and 109.  118 can hit 106, 109, 111.  124 can hit 111 and 109.

Sub 124 >111
Battleship 113 >111
Fighter Norway >111
W.G T. Bomber>111
G. S. Bomber >111

• This attack is fine but I usually bring the sub from 118 if I’m not attacking 106 with it.

Basically it comes down to this. Whatever subs you use to hit 110 cant hit 91.  118 and 124 could reach 110 but they cant move through 111 or 109 because there are destroyers there.

I would definitely buy a CV to protect that navy.  If you leave a smoking BB in sz 111 and UK did not scramble they can hit your smoking BB, CA and 3 fighters with a smoking BB, DD, S.Bom and 3 fighters.  In a low Luck game UK is going to get 3 hits and roll a (1) and Germany gets the same on UK.  UK loses BB, DD, Fighter and Germany loses CA and 2 fighters.  Now UK has 2 fighters and a S.Bom  vs  Smoking BB, and 1 fighter. They will get 1 hit and roll a (4) and Germany will get 1 hit and roll a (2).  If Germany gets 2 hits and UK only gets 1 they still have a another shot at that BB with their bomber.  But the odds are in favor of UK getting the 2 hits on round 2 of the combat.  Its risky but if you don’t take out the CA in 91 it can move up to 112 and help the attack making it more in the favor of sinking Germany’s navy.

If you don’t want to buy a carrier then leave your navy in SZ 113 and send the subs from 103 and 108 to hit the cruiser in 91 and send the BB to 110 to absorb hits.

@Whitshadw:

As far as any blockers from England to prevent Italy to get Gibralter it won’t happin England goes first and Italy can clearly see what it dose react accordingly to make sure it takes it

Basicaly you have the ability to react and counter anything that England dose

@WILD:

Whitshadw,

UK1 I would hit sz96 (Ita dd/transport) with all air (hope not to lose the tac which lands on Gib if it survives), place the Med fleet in sz 92 w/2 ftrs (off Gib), but leave the Med dd in sz 94 to work as a blocker in conjunction with the French fleet in sz93. This will effectively block the Italians from getting to Gib, or using their navy to attack my Med fleet in sz 92 (denying them both NOs). Italy can use all air though, but if they do I lose the carrier and my planes go to Gib, then on to England (and Italy isn’t bombing my bases). My damaged BB off Scotland probably goes to sz104 (as much as it pains me lol) to block out the Germans from landing in Gib killing my air units.

You’re 100% right, the turn order has everything to do with the above block of Gib by Sea. So if UK does this, how exactly are you taking Gib w/Italy? Not happening unless the Germans took out the French fleet in sz93 G1 (which you didn’t). Italy is totally blocked out from reaching Gib by sea on Ita1.

It is possible for Italy to attempt an air sweep of the UK Med fleet in sz92, but that is highly unlikely because Italy has 2 ftrs, 1 S bmr attacking UK’s 1 cruiser, 1 carrier, 2 ftrs. Italy would lose its tiny air force, UK would lose the carrier, then cruiser if need be (2 ftrs land on Gib, then move to London UK2). If Italy try’s an air sweep of sz92, then Italy has a hard time clearing the French (sz93) and UK dd in sz94 w/o air power. This leaves the Germans to clean up the Med, and if they do there will be no Sea Lion G3 because German air is out of position/range.

The damaged British bb from sz111 (your hit and run) moves to sz104 to block the Germans from hitting Gibraltar from the Atlantic. If the Brit BB off Scotland was sunk then the UK could block w/dd (you left both UK dd’s in the Atlantic). Italy could use their s bmr to attack this blocker in sz 104 1vs1 for the Germans, but UK could have the damaged bb and a dd there, if so Italy won’t risk it (UK uses their other dd to take out surviving German subs in sz91).  Of course Germany could air sweep the UK Med fleet, but then they are out of position for a G3 Sea Lion, and their brms didn’t SBR London on G2. If the axis do a double hit, then the axis don’t do SBR runs, and German air is out of range to set for G3 Sea Lion.

I’m not saying the average UK player would see this and do it. Your moves, and buys w/Germany sends up some red flares though, so in our group it is very possible the UK would react in this manner (defensive posture). Much depends on the group, and how many Sea Lions, or risky moves they see in games/opponents. Sounds to me that you are a little unpredictable, which is a good thing (keeps them off balance).

I’m just pointing out that your Sea Lion plan, as good as it sounds could be interrupted, and the UK isn’t quite the sitting duck if they go all out max def. If the axis do some risky moves that cost them air power, or puts some of their planes out of position along the way Sea Lion will be more difficult. If the axis don’t perform attacks on the UK Med fleet coming into the Atlantic this again will put much more pressure on the Germans. If UK does max def which would include the above Med navy move into sz92 IMO and buying 6 inf+1 ftr for England, even if the axis get London was it worth it? No the cost is too high it will be hard to recover. If they loose the SL fleet afterwords, take a hit on the Luftwaffe, and have only a couple ground units left after taking London they are doomed IMO. Plus you have to deal with the Reds, and if the Luftwaffe and Italian air force took a beating good luck with that.

The US can also do some stuff that will make you think twice about pulling this off as well. As I said a couple loaded US carriers sitting in sz102 on US2 with some protection (dd’s/cruiser etc…), and a couple bmrs from E US that can land on a UK activated Eire will also cause some trouble for the axis after Sea Lion, especially if the UK was able to soften up your SL fleet when you attacked, or they can double hit it after you take London.

Lets be honest here, Sea Lion is a cat and mouse game.  Germany signals to the UK player that I’ll do Sea Lion if you don’t hedge against it by buying 6 Inf and 1 Ftr on UK1.  As a German player, I want you to turtle.  I don’t want a carrier on top of 2 Destroyers and a Cruiser with 4 fighters scrambling over it before I make my second purchase.

So, I’ll buy enough navy to make you play honest and not try to land in Europe all by your lonesome before the Americans arrive to save your ass.  Those ships on G1 pay dividends for a couple rounds, and maybe I’ll augment them with a few subs to keep you worried about my Air Force swinging over the top of my navy and subs if you expose your Navy too early.  After that, those ships I bought on G1 can be scuttled, they really aren’t going to be stopping a US landing, and they are just fodder to an ever growing RAF thats just waiting for carriers to land on to seize control of the English Channel.  In the end, that Navy buys me another round in the early / mid game before you can threaten landing on W.Germany and ruin my Major Complex.

If you are playing against someone who ignores your Sea Lion threat, you continue with the purchase on G2 and get those TT out.  As a German player, you REALLY don’t want to buy them, but if the UK insists on building a minor in Egypt, putting ships off of Canada or anything other than playing turtle you’re obligated to at least make it a reality you will be sacking London by flying a SBR and turning off that industrial complex to limit the units pouring out of it.  As a German player, this is the least beneficial play, but you’re obligated to turn London off and possibly for good in the following rounds.  You’re hoping Russia was expecting an all out blitz and played defensive on R1, backed off and purchased artillery for a potential counter attack, but if those Reds are in cahoots with those tea drinking Brits and they staged it you’ve gotten Germany caught between the hammer and the Anvil.

The problem with spending all those IPC on a slew of TT is that you’ve effectively severed the head or the spear in less tanks or the shaft of the spear in one less purchase round of 10 Mechs for fodder.  Even diverting TT and INF to land amphibiously is less than opportune for Germany - you could have gotten those same INF to the same position for a G3 attack on Russia without the TT by simply stepping from Berlin to Warsaw on G1.  So, what to think about?

Unfortunately, once you have those TT and SBR’d, UK is likely going to repair and do everything she can to defend London.  This is the gambit both sides play.  Can you take London without losing your aircraft?  How many units do you need to keep the United States from reclaiming it right away?  Will you lose your transports, stranding anything that ends up surviving?  Are the Americans in a position to take your navy out with bombers?  Can you hold off the Russians?  Are you SURE?  The Russians can be pretty solid on the offensive and Poland is the only thing between Berlin, a Red Europe and a GG.

Its a ballet that you have to play, and a wise player from the UK forces a German player to start one way, and then forces the Nazis a different way when a course reversal is less than opportune.  This is what Sea Lion is.

So, how do I play?  I threaten Sea Lion by purchasing a CV, DD and SS on G1.  I can buy enough TT on G2 to take London if the UK player plays very loose.  Generally UK plays a conservative 6INF 1FTR, so I abandon Sea Lion and G2 is a combination of Armor and Mech as I prepare to move on Russia on G3.  I think G2 advance on Russia exposes my starting INF stack too much.  I could change that by going all out ground purchases on G1 and not threatening Sea Lion, but I’ll be diverting resources on rounds 3, 4 and 5 to deal with the RAF and the Royal Navy if I didn’t purchase those ships on G1.  I’d rather have an uninterrupted stream of Mech / Armor advancing during those rounds and replacing losses for multiple consecutive rounds than stranding a stack of Armor with no fodder in front of them and facing a choice to retreat, delay or sacrifice them.

Sea Lion, in my experience is reserved for use against UK players that don’t know what they are doing yet, or one who completely invites it on purpose.

@Spendo02:

Sea Lion, in my experience is reserved for use against UK players that don’t know what they are doing yet, or one who completely invites it on purpose.

I agree with this.
This is why:

So far in my experience, the most effective strategy is to put maximum pressure on Moscow ASAP

If you are going for Sealion, shouldn’t this include Japan keeping USA out of the war until round 4?  Then the USA cannot even approach the UK until USA5.  And this of course is a sacrifice for Japan, and allows USA to send more resources to Europe because India and Australia are rich.

Sealion isn’t always possible but if you do proceed then don’t buy 11 Transports.  That’s a waste of a navy for one purpose.  If you buy 1 CV + 2 TT on round 1.  Round 2 buy another CV + 4TT.  Move your first navy into SZ 109 and take Erie with 3inf + 3art.  Round 3 move the 3inf + 3 art to Scotland.  Join both Navies inn 111 and move 4inf and 4 tanks to Scotland.  Round 4 attack from Scotland and use your navy to transport whatever else you need.  I would not advise doing this if UK has 4 fighters plus the French fighter.  But if they have 2 fighters and 1 French fighter then continue.

USA cannot land in Erie, Germany saves their planes and puts more troops onto London, Germany now has 2 CVs and CA to defend that navy instead of 1 CV, CA and 12 transports. USA can’t destroy that navy easily and will need another round or two to send reinforcements.  This gives you time to move your tanks and art back to Germany.  You will need to defend against Russia but only a couple rounds.  Its no doubt this gives Russia an advantage but Italy will most likely be in better shape and have an economy in the 30’s or more.  With UK Europe captured the middle east will fall.  There will be no saving force for India which Japan should project to take on J5 or J6.  Now that makes Hawaii the game not UK.  So in essence by taking UK you are setting up for a Pacific win not a European one.

If your going to do a sealion Japan and Germany must be on the same page.

Also, just because germany buys all ground round 1, does not mean sealion is 100% off the table.