Military History's Best Loser

@Imperious:

But the only time Hannibal comes up is the 2nd Punic War, but that conflict was by far conducted on land from land, and not any war “across the oceans”. It was not the case that Hannibal had logistical support by sea. Before he began the war, he prepared from Spain and got no supplies delivered by sea. The reason why i bring this up is because in a discussion of Hannibal, one poor student tried to argue that the war where he fought was largely this “war across the ocean” when it could not be more different.  Only part of Carthage was across the sea, part of it was not and Hannibal fought from what he developed in the Iberian peninsula.

Hannibal’s campaigns was largely one from land, but he was not the only general nor was his the only theater of war. I’m looking at the whole of Carthage’s war effort, and much of that was directed from Carthage and Africa, as I mentioned earlier, many armies were prepared there and sent to various theaters of war) though he did receive logistical support from Carthage at least once when admiral Bomilcar brought him cavalry, elephants and supplies in 215 BC at Locri, and of course, before the war, where he brought over Africans to Spain. His main logistical support came from the Italian peninsular. I also believe he’d have continued to receive funds and supplies from Carthage too, as ancient sea power could not prevent this completely (and we hear of many occasions of Hannibal sending word back to Carthage, or to Sicily, which obviously would have gone by ship).

markdienekes,  good luck in your debate with IL on this topic.  IL is well versed in this and every topic, he had a degree in history from Stanford where they teach that Hannibal was born in Turkey.

IL says:
Quote

It was ( the 1st and 2nd Punic wars) where Hannibal the General born in Turkey ( not Spain or Carthage) commanded an army dispatched from part of the empire in what was to become Spain in an attack against Rome.

IL, you claim Hannibal the General was born in Turkey?  Can you cite your sources please?

My Masters in History from Stanford says it. It is common knowledge and i don’t do your homework.

My assertion always was that Carthage was primarily an African power, that Italy was primarily a European power.  That wars and battles are two different things.  That the war was between two powers separated by a ocean sea and that yes most of the battles occurred between armies that were both on land and in Europe for at least a few days or more before the battle commenced, ie no amphibious assaults.  I still don’t see any of these premises as being false but shrugs.

3……2…1…and…right on cue

@MrMalachiCrunch:

markdienekes,  good luck in your debate with IL on this topic.  IL is well versed in this and every topic, he had a degree in history from Stanford where they teach that Hannibal was born in Turkey.

Thanks, I am well versed on this topic myself (but not much else, hehe).

I’ve actually listened to some of the Stanford lectures on Hannibal, and some of it is quite good, but Patrick Hunt makes quite a few mistakes in regards to the military aspect of the Second Punic War, particularly on the nature of Carthaginian armies and the roles of it - for example, he keeps referring to Numidian cavalry as ‘heavy’ cavalry. If you can track them down, they are still worth listening too as it is packed with good information.

I haven’t heard that he was born in Turkey, however, I have heard that he may have been buried there, but then that was also where he died (in Libyssa). I imagine Hannibal was born in Carthage. But that is going a bit off-topic! :D

Agreed Worsham. We are lucky to have Markdienekes’ knowledge of the subject.

Wow… so Napolean Bonaparte won the Poll.

Interesting.

I agree with Garg. Crunch, this is an example of trolling behavior I find distasteful.

markdienekes,  good luck in your debate with IL on this topic.  IL is well versed in this and every topic, he had a degree in history from Stanford where they teach that Hannibal died in Turkey.

Troll much?

Crunchwrap posts:

Carthage was indeed across the ocean and that is from where the attack originated from sans his European allies.  Most of Frances big battles were not far from its borders excluding of course the Africa campaign and the Moscow defeat.

Across the ocean? For somebody to not know the difference between a sea and the ocean says quite alot about you. But i guess we can blame that on that brain injury you have?

Crunch, turning this into a forum to lash out at IL is shameful quite frankly.

Garg is correct.

I agree with Garg 100%

Let me say that Garg is correct ok?

Hehe, they look tied at the moment, 8 for 8! Two good examples of military histories best losers across the eons.

Just to back up my previous posts, these are just some of the passages in Livy that reveal a number of naval operations and landings of forces from Africa to the various theaters during the war, which clearly prove it simply wasn’t just one fought from land to land from Spain to Italy.

In the meanwhile the news was brought to Carthage that things had gone badly in Spain and that almost all the communities in that country had gone over to Rome. Mago, Hannibal’s brother, was preparing to transport to Italy a force of 12,000 infantry, 1500 cavalry, and 20 elephants, escorted by a fleet of 60 warships. On the receipt of this news, however, some were in favour of Mago, with such a fleet and army as he had, going to Spain instead of Italy, but whilst they were deliberating there was a sudden gleam of hope that Sardinia might be recovered. They were told that "there was only a small Roman army there, the old praetor, A. Cornelius, who knew the province well, was leaving and a fresh one was expected; the Sardinians, too, were tired of their long subjection, and during the last twelve months the government had been harsh and rapacious and had crushed them with a heavy tax and an unfair exaction of corn. Nothing was wanting but a leader to head their revolt. "This report was brought by some secret agents from their leaders, the prime mover in the matter being Hampsicora, the most influential and wealthy man amongst them at that time. Perturbed by the news from Spain, and at the same time elated by the Sardinian report, they sent Mago with his fleet and army to Spain and selected Hasdrubal to conduct the operations in Sardinia, assigning to him a force about as large as the one they had furnished to Mago. (23.32)

The army sent to Sardinia was defeated there (Livy, 23.40) and shortly afterwards, a naval battle took place in which Hasdrubal was defeated by Titus Otacilius Crassus (23.41) as Hasdrubal was returning to Africa.

Very few were influenced by Hanno’s speech. His well-known dislike of the Barcas deprived his words of weight and they were too much preoccupied with the delightful news they had just heard to listen to anything which would make them feel less cause for joy. They fancied that if they were willing to make a slight effort the war would soon be over. A resolution was accordingly passed with great enthusiasm to reinforce Hannibal with 4000 Numidians, 40 elephants, and 500 talents of silver. (23.13)

But they did not remain quiet long, for just after this battle an order was received from Carthage for Hasdrubal to lead his army as soon as he could into Italy. This became generally known throughout Spain and the result was that there was a universal feeling in favour of Rome. Hasdrubal at once sent a despatch to Carthage pointing out what mischief the mere rumour of his departure had caused, and also that if he did really leave Spain it would pass into the hands of the Romans before he crossed the Ebro. He went on to say that not only had he neither a force nor a general to leave in his place, but the Roman generals were men whom he found it difficult to oppose even when his strength was equal to theirs. If, therefore, they were at all anxious to retain Spain they should send a man with a powerful army to succeed him, and even though all went well with his successor he would not find it an easy province to govern. (23.27) (this passage is relevant to understand the one below)

Although this despatch made a great impression on the senate, they decided that as Italy demanded their first and closest attention, the arrangements about Hannibal and his forces must not be altered. Himilco was sent with a large and well-appointed army and an augmented fleet to hold and defend Spain by sea and land. As soon as he had brought his military and naval forces across he formed an entrenched camp, hauled his ships up on the beach and surrounded them with a rampart. After providing for the safety of his force he started with a picked body of cavalry, and marching as rapidly as possible, and being equally on the alert whether passing through doubtful or through hostile tribes, succeeded in reaching Hasdrubal. After laying before him the resolutions and instructions of the senate and being in his turn shown in what way the war was to be managed in Spain, he returned to his camp. (23.28)

Himilco, who had been for a considerable time cruising with his fleet off the promontory of Pachynus, returned to Carthage as soon as he heard that Syracuse had been seized by Hippocrates. Supported by the envoys from Hippocrates and by a despatch from Hannibal in which he said that the time had arrived for winning back Sicily in the most glorious way, and by the weight of his own personal presence, he had no difficulty in persuading the government to send to Sicily as large a force as they could of both infantry and cavalry. Sailing back to the island he landed at Heraclea an army of 20,000 infantry, 3000 cavalry, and twelve elephants, a very much stronger force than he had with him at Pachynus (24.35)

After Marcellus’ departure from Sicily a Carthaginian fleet landed a force of 8000 infantry and 3000 Numidian horse. (26.21)

In regards to strengthening Hannibal’s brother Mago’s position in northern Italy:

To Mago they sent not only instructions but also 25 warships, a force of 6000 infantry, 800 cavalry and 7 elephants. A large amount of money was also forwarded to him to enable him to raise a body of mercenaries, with which he might be able to move nearer Rome and form a junction with Hannibal. Such were the preparations and plans of Carthage. (29.4)

I honestly believe some of these forces, particularly the one sent to Sardinia, should have actually been sent to Hannibal, he certainly could have done with them!

Thank you for that: makes for good reading.
And I do love numbers!

Pleased you found the post interesting  :-)

Quite the tour de force markdienekes.  Welcome to the forums by the way and not just because your viewpoint happens to agree with mine on this topic, but it sure does feel glorious wg.

Yes good post. Thank God he didn’t say Hannibal’s campaign in Italy was some silly war “across the ocean”, since it wasn’t.

Glad that was cleared up.

@Imperious:

Yes good post. Thank God he didn’t say Hannibal’s campaign in Italy was some silly war “across the ocean”, since it wasn’t.

Glad that was cleared up.

Thankfully what has been cleared up is your assertion that virtually the entire war was one fought from land to land, (apart from, as you said, Rome’s final attack came from the sea) otherwise people might get the wrong idea fella!

@Imperious:

The first and second punic wars were fought from Spain into Italy.

This needs a bit of correcting too! The first half of this, where you say the First was also fought from Spain into Italy. The fighting took place in Sicily, with a large number of major naval battles taking place in the Med. The only fighting that took place in Italy were coastal raids launched from Africa, Sardinia and from Sicily. Rome did invade North Africa during this war, though only once and only briefly, the army was defeated by Xanthippus at the Battle of Tunis in 255 BC) Carthage maintained trading relations with the Phoenicians of Spain at this point, and certainly hired Spanish mercenaries, but it was no war launched from Spain!

Douche is right in that I did use the word ocean incorrectly rather than the term sea.  Amazingly enough I have corrected this a few times but nothing like an old error to bring out and trump as…… well I am not sure what actually.  Luckily I get to blame my brain injury for such slip ups.  I wonder what kind of brain injury IL had when he was insisting that Hannibal was born in Turkey and was taught this by Stanford so no need to cite sources?  Silly me, I was thinking Carthage was primarily an African power fighting a primarily european power and that an ocean sea separated the two.

In any event, I stand by vote.  Hannibal baby!

markdienekes, thanks for schooling me on a subject I thought I knew fairly well, only by comparison to those who don’t it seems!

Amazingly enough I have corrected this a few times but nothing like an old error to bring out and trump as……

Yes like Hannibal dying in Turkey vs. being born in Turkey?  Hi kettle i’m pot….

Silly me, I was thinking Carthage was primarily an African power fighting a primarily european power and that an ocean sea separated the two.

Rather you thought ( incorrectly) that Hannibal’s campaigns against Rome were fought “across the oceans” and that the whole fighting was like some massive sea battles. Hannibal didnt fight from the sea, he fought from Carthage on LAND.

Get it right.

and that the whole fighting was like some massive sea battles.

I never once said this.  Quote where I did say this or recant your erroneous claim as to what my claims were.   My claim was that “Carthage was primarily an African power fighting a European power.  That the seat and source of Carthage’s wealth and power was derived from Africa not Europe and that most of the battles were fought on the other side of a large body of water from this source of power and wealth.”  This entire time I am still trying to understand which of my premises you find in error or what part of my conclusion do you respectfully disagree with.

My vote for Hannibal was based on the fact that he was fighting far from home and that is home really was not Spain but Carthage proper across the ocean…ooops, I did it again.  Across the sea.

If nothing else Hannibal has dominated the conversation thread.

IL, if you are saying that your claim that Hannibal was born in Turkey rather than Carthage is the same as me using ocean rather than sea…I would disagree.  I asked you several times to cite your source as to the birth place and you doubled down in a most rude fashion claiming it was common knowledge and trying to brow beat me with your masters degree from Stanford.  If you are finally saying you were wrong and you stuck to your guns to a wrong assertion for days then I accept your weak mea culpa.  But it was not at all the same as quickly typing ocean rather than sea.  At least we can agree that Hannibal was a most interesting person.

I never once said this.  Quote where I did say this or recant your erroneous claim as to what my claims were.   My claim was that “Carthage was primarily an African power fighting a European power.  That the seat and source of Carthage’s wealth and power was derived from Africa not Europe and that most of the battles were fought on the other side of a large body of water from this source of power and wealth.”  This entire time I am still trying to understand which of my premises you find in error or what part of my conclusion do you respectfully disagree with.

I didn’t say you said that. You characterized the fact that Hannibal ( remember him?) fought Rome by land from land and not across the “oceans” He was engaged only by land from adjacent land areas to Rome. It was not a campaign fought across the Mediterranean.

My vote for Hannibal was based on the fact that he was fighting far from home and that is home really was not Spain but Carthage proper across the ocean…ooops, I did it again.  Across the sea.

Far from Iberia? OK

IL, if you are saying that your claim that Hannibal was born in Turkey rather than Carthage is the same as me using ocean rather than sea…I would disagree.  I asked you several times to cite your source as to the birth place and you doubled down in a most rude fashion claiming it was common knowledge and trying to brow beat me with your masters degree from Stanford.  If you are finally saying you were wrong and you stuck to your guns to a wrong assertion for days then I accept your weak mea culpa.  But it was not at all the same as quickly typing ocean rather than sea.  At least we can agree that Hannibal was a most interesting person.

I agree with Garg. Crunch, this is an example of trolling behavior I find distasteful.

I corrected myself long ago on that and you know it. I remember that from lectures based on pre 1990 timeframe and have not revisited that topic until now. At least i remember Turkey connected to him in some way, just that it was his death and not birth place.

Crunch, turning this into a forum to lash out at IL is shameful quite frankly.

Garg is correct.

I agree with Garg 100%

Let me say that Garg is correct ok?

I corrected myself long ago on that and you know it.

Actually, I don’t know that.  I’m not sure that you have ever admitted you were wrong.  If you did admit you were wrong it would be something of a record, glad I was the one to finally make you admit you were wrong.

Across the ocean? For somebody to not know the difference between a sea and the ocean says quite alot about you. But i guess we can blame that on that brain injury you have?

Right, you wouldn’t want to troll now would you IL.  Nothing like making fun of peoples appearances like you calling me a fat wife beater and making fun of brain injuries.  But if I have hurt your feelings I am sorry IL.  Do you feel better now?  BTW I did read your email awhile ago where you said sorry for going over the top with personal insults.  I did not get back to you because I felt it was disingenuous.  Gee, I wonder why I would get that impression?

So IL, if you expect me to stop trolling as you ironically claim, then perhaps you can dispense with the attacks on personal appearances and my brain injury.  I must admit tho, you are been a great example of troubled people that are a challenge to communicate with.  The experts I work with examine your exchanges to help me deal with the dicks of the world, I thank you for the mental exercise you provide me and my cognitive rehabilitation team.

Actually, I don’t know that.  I’m not sure that you have ever admitted you were wrong.  If you did admit you were wrong it would be something of a record, glad I was the one to finally make you admit you were wrong.

Selective memory must be something you like to do? In that case search the posts to get your answer.

Right, you wouldn’t want to troll now would you IL.  Nothing like making fun of peoples appearances like you calling me a fat wife beater and making fun of brain injuries.  But if I have hurt your feelings I am sorry IL.  Do you feel better now?  BTW I did read your email awhile ago where you said sorry for going over the top with personal insults.  I did not get back to you because I felt it was disingenuous.  Gee, I wonder why I would get that impression?

I agree with Garg. Crunch, this is an example of trolling behavior I find distasteful. You restarted and hijacked yet another thread. You could have left it alone, but like some kid who loves to open a scab or eat his own boogers…you just troll again and again.

then perhaps you can dispense with the attacks on personal appearances and my brain injury.

Perhaps if you don’t bring them up, they may go away? You think?

Crunch, turning this into a forum to lash out at IL is shameful quite frankly.

Garg is correct.

I agree with Garg 100%

Let me say that Garg is correct ok?