AA Guns

@Uncrustable:

You should read the whole thing.
Ignore the first line

@Uncrustable:

If you have the chance to knock out some defending fighters before a major attack…

Anyways like I said, I would never use it. Too much
Anything that hurts planes, even if slightly, is not a Good thing

And if your right and it doesn’t change anything, then your adding complexity to no purpose
It’s a double negative

And again you compare apples to oranges, but if you want to go there…
Transports under the classic rules hurt naval purchases across the board and , to some extent, plane purchases
After the change, there have been an increase in naval and air battles over the oceans
And naval purchases increased dramatically as well as plane purchases
The transport change added greatly to the game, while only adding slightly to the complexity

The main gains are just about this:
in which way will we see a greater use of AAA and new kind of tactics?

Clearly, your thinking about AAA as regular unit is kind of changing “paradigm” as with TT’s rule change.
I’m not quite sure giving a little “punch on offense” to AAA is OP.
(Like some other give it in converting AAgun in “antitank gun after first round. Or as antitank gun when there is no attacking plane”).

Maybe, it just open some new possibilities which need patience, skills and strategies to be used effectively on offense.
You said earlier: “It has way too many implications, changes too much from OOB.”

Maybe those implications are not that unbalancing at all.

What I know for sure, is give some players the chance to try it, they will try to develop a strategy to maximized it. It will be easier to judge.

For now, we are stuck on abstract and principles thinking with few examples.

Think about the first time Larry have introduce the idea of a “taken last” transport inside his group of play-tester and before playing sea battles that way.

They were probably divided about it as the other tread reveals.

I do not want that, I doubt very many do…
What I want is a slight boost to AAA
To improve it’s defensive capabilities, while not breaking anything or adding too much complexity or making AAA too powerful

That is what games like this need, slight tweaks
It is already a great game, and fairly balanced as well
Just see how many play G40 on these forums alone

@Uncrustable:

I do not want that, I doubt very many do…
What I want is a slight boost to AAA
To improve it’s defensive capabilities, while not breaking anything or adding too much complexity or making AAA too powerful

That is what games like this need, slight tweaks
It is already a great game, and fairly balanced as well
Just see how many play G40 on these forums alone

For my part, I’m very curious about it.
In this tread, you was the one to suggest and advocate for an Always Active AA gun.
Talking about increasing strategy.
And I was the one defending the balance of thing.

Now, roles seem upside down.  :wink:

Could always go AA gun on Cruiser, Battleship, Aircraft Carrier and add 3 IPC to the cost of each of these units?

@Cmdr:

Could always go AA gun on Cruiser, Battleship, Aircraft Carrier and add 3 IPC to the cost of each of these units?

You are creating improved units.
You will need some token or new sculpt on the board.

@Cmdr:

Could always go AA gun on Cruiser, Battleship, Aircraft Carrier and add 3 IPC to the cost of each of these units?

I have in mind this question: what is the real AA platform ship of the WWII?
CA?
BB?
CV?
Maybe CV and BB have much more kills because they were the prime target.
If you count the number of AA gun on 1 ship and multiply by the number in service.
Maybe, we will see that a A&A Cruiser unit was much more of a plane killer, because their was numerous cruisers (30 cruiser ships figuring 1 CA units vs 4-5 BB figuring 1 battleship unit)  fighting planes and protecting capital ship.

@Baron:

@Cmdr:

Could always go AA gun on Cruiser, Battleship, Aircraft Carrier and add 3 IPC to the cost of each of these units?

You are creating improved units.
You will need some token or new sculpt on the board.

Ship with control marker under it.

@Cmdr:

Could always go AA gun on Cruiser, Battleship, Aircraft Carrier and add 3 IPC to the cost of each of these units?

At first sight, it is a strange idea.
Because, all those units on defense can destroy planes.
You only want to add a preemptive strike before the first round.
And in an historical sense, I think both attacker and defender were able to fire at each other.

I rather prefer to give this 1AA ability (@1, 1/ship/max 1/plane) at no cost to one unit (CA), maybe two (BB and CA).

Well, I’ve said before, if I had my druthers’ it would be on the Battleship because it’s already a ship that is much maligned in 1940 and because there are instances battleships fighting with AA Guns.

@Cmdr:

Well, I’ve said before, if I had my druthers’ it would be on the Battleship because it’s already a ship that is much maligned in 1940 and because there are instances battleships fighting with AA Guns.

As a single ship I give you right.
But what do you think of this?
@Baron:

@Cmdr:

Could always go AA gun on Cruiser, Battleship, Aircraft Carrier and add 3 IPC to the cost of each of these units?

I have in mind this question: what is the real AA platform ship of the WWII?
CA?
BB?
CV?
Maybe CV and BB have much more kills because they were the prime target.
If you count the number of AA gun on 1 ship and multiply by the number in service.
Maybe, we will see that a A&A Cruiser unit was much more of a plane killer, because their was numerous cruisers (30 cruiser ships figuring 1 CA units vs 4-5 BB figuring 1 battleship unit)  fighting planes and protecting capital ship.

I have always looked at the battleship as a fleet marker and not just a specific battleship.

For instance, the Battleship Missouri was labeled BB-63 and travelled with Task Force 58.  Task Force 58 included the battleship, a few submarines, a few destroyers and destroyer escorts, some cruisers and a couple light carriers.  All this, in my mind, is part of the Battleship piece.

The Cruiser piece might be 3 cruisers.  The destroyer piece might be half a dozen destroyers with no superior ships along side, etc.  Submarines are probably 3, for instance, a German Wolfpack might be 3 submarines represented by one submarine piece.

@Cmdr:

I have always looked at the battleship as a fleet marker and not just a specific battleship.

For instance, the Battleship Missouri was labeled BB-63 and travelled with Task Force 58.  Task Force 58 included the battleship, a few submarines, a few destroyers and destroyer escorts, some cruisers and a couple light carriers.  All this, in my mind, is part of the Battleship piece.

The Cruiser piece might be 3 cruisers.  The destroyer piece might be half a dozen destroyers with no superior ships along side, etc.  Submarines are probably 3, for instance, a German Wolfpack might be 3 submarines represented by one submarine piece.

I can’t be as accurate than you but you need to increase the numbers of ships for each units to get a kind of relative proportion between historical set up and game set up.

I agree that you need some escorts vessels within a BB unit but not that large as a Task force since now we have many different units on the board.

I find it weird to add fighters and escort carriers inside a BB unit.
It should be more homogeneous, from my perspective.

@Cmdr:

Well, I’ve said before, if I had my druthers’ it would be on the Battleship because it’s already a ship that is much maligned in 1940 and because there are instances battleships fighting with AA Guns.

About your main topic,
if you think that Cruiser are more often bought than Battleship in your game, I think you can add 1 or 2 @1 preemptive strike AA/ship, to create an incentive. It will be see as a more dangerous unit for sure.
But on an historical point of view, US Admirals rather prefer attacking Yamato and others BBs with airplanes rather with their own capital ship (they saw greater risk in direct contact to their capital ships than their airfleet).

Your HR will create a distortion compare to history since many BBs were sink by attacking planes.

I add escort carriers, and heavy cruisers to Aircraft Carrier units too.

An arrangement of:

• 2 Carriers, 3 Battleships, 3 Cruisers, 9 Destroyers and 6 Submarines might include 30 escort carriers, 30-50 escort destroyers, 20 escorting submarines, tanker ships, transports and medical ships, etc.

@Cmdr:

I add escort carriers, and heavy cruisers to Aircraft Carrier units too.

An arrangement of:

• 2 Carriers, 3 Battleships, 3 Cruisers, 9 Destroyers and 6 Submarines might include 30 escort carriers, 30-50 escort destroyers, 20 escorting submarines, tanker ships, transports and medical ships, etc.

IMO, this Task force will be represented in A&A by 1 CV unit and 1 BB unit+ at least 1-2 DD unit and 1 Sub unit.

yes lets wreck plane purchases entirely  :-P

While were at it, why not let tanks choose their ground targets, subs can choose their targets on first strike if DD is not present, fighters/tac bombers can choose their ground targets, etc…

Jen your ideas better fit a smaller tactical game such as A&A minis or battle of the bulge/D-day, etc…

@Uncrustable:

yes lets wreck plane purchases entirely  :-P

While were at it, why not let tanks choose their ground targets, subs can choose their targets on first strike if DD is not present, fighters/tac bombers can choose their ground targets, etc…

Jen your ideas better fit a smaller tactical game such as A&A minis or battle of the bulge/D-day, etc…

Oh oh Uncrustable’s irony on sight!  :lol:

I doubt having battleships with AA Guns are going to ruin aircraft.  Might make some of the cheap battleship battles a bit more interesting.  I don’t think 2 fighter squadrons should be able to sink a battleship, since it took more than 5 squadrons to sink the Bismarck

Cruisers rolling a 1 in combat (attack or defense) can choose a hit taken against enemy planes ( owner decides which type)

Now cruisers are fixed for that crappy price.

Either that or they move 3 spaces with or without a port

I finally made my opinion on which kind of “AAA fire only against aircraft” I could introduce as HR.

@Baron:

Thank you for your answer, it helps a lot to see more clearly where this goes.
Your example fit whith no option on the table but it is a reference if AAA were all outs.

I borrow your post to insert it in my proposition:
@Cmdr:

If 1 AA Gun got 1 Shot per round in opening fire, as long as there existed at least 1 attacking plane, then there would be no need to have the 1/6 chance of the plane surviving being shot.

What I read, and I may have misread, was that each gun would get up to 3 shots per round. �After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes (just using starting units, assuming no planes lost by Germany or if they were, they were rebuilt) so that’s:

12 Shots round 1, 2 hits on average
10 Shots round 2, 2 hits on average (rounding up)
8 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding down)
7 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding down)
6 Shots round 5, 1 hit on average
5 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
4 Shots round 7, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
3 Shots round 8, No hits on average (rounding down)
3 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
2 Shots round 10, no hits on average.

So you went from getting 2 hits on average with the current rules, to 10 hits on average with the proposed rules. That’s a SIGNIFICANT increase! �It’s way more than is necessary to turn the tide of battle in Russia, and Germany has to hope to crush Russia pretty darn quick to win the game as it is now. �(And hellz yes, I am keeping all four of those guns operational until it comes down to trading armored units or the number of attacking planes has been decimated to the point it’s not worth keeping them alive anymore!)

Option 1: AAA, a hit after 1st round force plane to withdraw.
Each gun would get up to 3 shots per round.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

12 Shots round 1, 2 hits on average � � � � � � � � � � 12/0 � � 2 planes destroyed
10 Shots round 2, 2 hits on average (rounding up) 22/12 � 2 planes must retreat.
8 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average � � � � � � � � � � � � 30/24 �1 plane must retreat
7 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding down) 37/30 �1 plane must retreat
6 Shots round 5, 1 hit on average (rounding down) 43/36 �1 plane must retreat
5 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average � � � � � � � � � � � � 48/42 �1 plane must retreat
4 Shots round 7, 1 hit on average (rounding up) � � 52/48 �1 plane must retreat
3 Shots round 8, no hit on average (rounding down)55/54
3 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up) � � 58/54 � 1 plane must retreat
2 Shots round 10, no hit on average. � � � � � � � � � � 60/60
� � � � � � 8 planes have retreated.

So you went from getting 2 hits on average with the current rules, to 10 hits on average with the proposed option 1.
This means Germany still kept �10 planes and only lose 2 planes.
But, there is only 2 planes on the battlefield.

Option 2:
Each gun would get up to 3 shots per round and 1 shot/rnd after first round.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

12 Shots round 1, 2 hits on average � � � � � �2 planes destroyed
4 Shots round 2, 1hit on average (rounding up) � � �1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up) � � 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 4, no hit to keep the average: 2 hits/12 shots
4 Shots round 5, 1 hit on average (rounding up) � � 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average (rounding up) � � 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 7, no hit to keep the average � � � � � �
4 Shots round 8, 1 hit on average (rounding up) � � 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up) � � 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 10, no hits on average.

Option 2 results:
Get 4 times regular casualities = �8 planes will be destroyed on average but 4 planes will still be on the battlefield.

Option 3:
Each AAA gun would get up to 1 shot/1 plane (whichever is less) �every round.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

4 Shots round 1, 1 hit on average (rounding up) � 4/0 � 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 2, no hit to keep the average: � � � �8/6
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up) �12/6 �1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding up) �16/12 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 5, no hit to keep the average: � � � 20/18
4 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average � � � � � � � � � � �24/18 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 7, 1 hit on average (rounding up) �28/24 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 8, no hit to keep the average: � � � 32/30
4 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up) �36/30 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 10, 1 hit on average (rounding up) 40/36 1 plane destroyed

Option 3 results:
Get 3.5 times regular casualities = �7 planes will be destroyed on average but 5 planes will still be on the battlefield.

Option 4:
Each gun would get up to 3 shots per round at 1/18 rates of casualities.
After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

12 Shots round 1, 1 hit on average (rounding up) � � � �12/18 �1 plane destroyed
11 Shots round 2, no hit on average (rounding down) �23/18
11 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up) � � � �34/36 1 plane destroyed
10 Shots round 4, no hit on average (rounding down) �44/36
10 Shots round 5, 1 hit on average � � � � � � � � � � � � � �54/54 �1 plane destroyed
9 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average (rounding up) � � � � 63/72 �1 plane destroyed
8 Shots round 7, no hit to keep the average : � � � � � � 71/72
8 Shots round 8, no hit on average (rounding down) � 79/72
8 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up) � � � � 87/72 � 1 plane destroyed
7 Shots round 10, no hit on average (rounding down) �94/90

Option 4 results:
5 planes will be destroyed on average and 7 planes will still be on the battlefield.

OOB rule (3 rolls@1 on 1st rnd only): 2 killed �10 remaining
Option 0 (3 rolls@1 after 1st rnd): � � 10 killed 2 remaining
Option 1 (3 rolls@1 after 1st rnd): � � 2 killed �2 stayin’ battle 8 compel to retreat planes
Option 2 (1 roll@1 after 1st rnd): � � �8 killed �4 remaining
Option 3 (1 roll@1 each rnd): � � � � � 7 killed �4 remaining
Option 4 (3 rolls@1/18 always): � � � �5 killed �7 remaining

Now we can better compare between them.

Do you think option 1 can still be viable and interesting purchase?
Since their is only 2 kills as OOB, but it can also hinder seriously an attacking Germany, for instance, by compeling all aircrafts being hit to withdraw from the battle. Some attacking punchs will be missing in combat for sure.

Planes are not destroyed, so no IPC directly lost but indirectly it is the case via the lack of airsupport to attack ennemy’s ground units �and causing less casualities than expected.

And what about option 4? Is it still too overpowering?
And we didn’t consider at all taking some AAA as casualities, which could be a very possible option in a long lasting battle, which could mean lesser odds to make casualities on planes.

Option 5:
Each AAA gun would get up to 3 shots for the first round at 1/12 rates of casualities.
Each AAA gun would get up to 1 shot/1 plane (whichever is less) at 1/12  every round after the first.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

12 Shots round 1, 1 hit on average:                    12/0  1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 2, no hit to keep the average:       16/12
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  20/12 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 4, no hit to keep the average:       24/24
4 Shots round 5, no hit to keep the average:       28/24
4 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  32/24 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 7, no hit to keep the average:       36/36
4 Shots round 8, no hit to keep the average:       40/36
4 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  44/36 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 10, no hit to keep the average:     48/48

Option 5 results:
Get 2 times regular casualities =  4 planes will be destroyed on average but 8 planes will still be on the battlefield.

OOB rule (3 rolls@1 on 1st rnd only):                          2 killed  10 remaining
Option 0 (3 rolls@1 after 1st rnd):                              10 killed 2 remaining
Option 1 (3 rolls@1 after 1st rnd):   2 killed  2 stayin’ battle 8 compel to retreat planes
Option 2 (1 roll@1 after 1st rnd):                                 8 killed  4 remaining
Option 3 (1 roll@1 each rnd):                                      7 killed  4 remaining
Option 4 (3 rolls@1/18 always):                                   5 killed  7 remaining
Option 5 (3 rolls@1/12 then 1 roll@1/12 after 1st rnd):  4 killed  8 remaining

Now when I compare between option 5 and all others option, I see it is nearer to OOB rule,
I will prefer this. On average, it takes 6 rounds to get more hits than OOB rule.

So, my AAA gun only will be under this rule:
Always preemptive strike (for simplicity).
1 AAA can attack up to 3 planes on first round, but max 1 attack per plane.
after first round, 1 AAA attack/ round, up to 1 plane, but max 1 attack per plane.
Hit ratio: 1/12 which is obtain this way:
        one first roll: “1” and a second roll “3” or less to destroy one plane.