New sub rules for all AA games with destroyers and cruisers.

I have been developing rules to replace OoB sub rules. I intend to use these rules when I start the 1939 game with ILs famous map. Our group felt the need because the OoB subs are puny. Of course like any house rules there can always be improvements. OoB rules that stay the same are, subs always attack at two, defend at one, and move at two. Subs still have the one shot sneak attack if a destroyer is not present. Now for the changes. The only warships that may hit a sub are destroyers and cruisers. But a cruiser may not attack a sub without a destroyer being present for detection unless the sub makes multiple attacks.  After a one shot sneak attack with no destroyer present the attacking player may declare his sub or subs submerged. No defense may be conducted against submerged subs unless they do not submerge and continue to attack. The cruiser or cruisers may then attack the sub because it has given its position away by attacking multiple times. If a sub or subs attack three or more times then fighters and Tactical bombers may defend if they are located in the same sea zone. ( On a carrier) Surviving attacking subs may declare that they are submerged after any round of combat. Submerged subs may be declared “On station” in any sea zone and may not be detected or attacked except when “On station” in a marked convoy sea zone. Enemy vessels may pass through any sea zone where a sub is “On station” without combat resulting unless the sub decides to attack. This is true on combat and non-combat movement. Subs “On station” in a convoy zone may be detected by moving a destroyer or destroyers into the convoy zone on combat movement and rolling one die for each destroyer present. Any or all subs are detected on a roll of two or less. Destroyers and cruisers may then attack as normal. If no detection is made then no combat is possible. Subs “On station” in convoy zones are known to be present because they have been causing convoy disruptions and therefore may be hunted. If a sub is to be hunted then fighters and tac bombers within range may be flown in to help with the kill. But if no detection is achieved then the planes are wasted for that turn and must return to a friendly carrier or territory. Detected subs may only be attacked for one round and if not hit they are presumed to have escaped but stay in the same sea zone. Submerged subs should be marked by placing a national control marker under them. These changes should make the submarine more of a serious threat. Do not even think about moving a carrier or battleship around without destroyer escorts!

@lnmajor:

Looks like these will work nicely. So battleships can never fire at subs? Very good. In first shot sneak attack, what happens if sub misses and there are no destroyers present? If there are destroyers present, must they conduct successful search roll to be attacked by destroyers?

In real life battleships always had their own flotilla of destroyers. An exception would be the German convoy raiders of WW II. Maybe with my rule this foolishness of battleships and carriers running around unescorted would stop. In the event that a destroyer is present then the sub is automatically detected for one round of counterfire. Surviving attacking subs may declare that they are submerged after one round.

@lnmajor:

Ok, but what if no destroyers are present becouse they were taken as a loss on a different opponents turn? Sub fires an misses battleship, what happens? :-o

Adios battleship! Got to think twice about taking all your destroyers as casualties. These sub rules will make destroyers more valuable than ever.

@lnmajor:

You cant take a battleship with a missed die roll! no way, Will not fly. that would mean whenever a sub enters a sea zone on a combat move that contains a battleship or carrier they are automatic sunk? like all your rules but you need to think this one out better.

OK, the capital ships after taking one hit or undergoing one attack would probably be able to escape a single sub or maybe even a wolfpack with superior speed. So in case of a one shot sneak attack on unescorted capital ships the sub automatically submerges and the attack is over. I just thought that the idea of capital ships sailing around all over the ocean was unrealistic but I guess is still possible. Thanks for your feedback.

@Fishmoto37:

@lnmajor:

You cant take a battleship with a missed die roll! no way, Will not fly. that would mean whenever a sub enters a sea zone on a combat move that contains a battleship or carrier they are automatic sunk? like all your rules but you need to think this one out better.

OK, the capital ships after taking one hit or undergoing one attack would probably be able to escape a single sub or maybe even a wolfpack with superior speed. So in case of a one shot sneak attack on unescorted capital ships the sub automatically submerges and the attack is over. I just thought that the idea of capital ships sailing around all over the ocean was unrealistic but I guess is still possible. Thanks for your feedback.

@crusaderiv:

You cant take a battleship with a missed die roll! no way, Will not fly. that would mean whenever a sub enters a sea zone on a combat move that contains a battleship or carrier they are automatic sunk? like all your rules but you need to think this one out better.

Nevertheless it’s very realistic.
Fishmoto rules seems like the elaborate naval rules from - World war II the expansion for use  with A&A-
I based my naval game with this expansion with of course… some house rules.
Subs can’t get a zone of control and may pass through a sea zone controlled by ennemy without
engaging combat.

I always liked the idea about escort. During WW II, Capitals warships sails with destroyers.
When they were alone, they became an easy targets.

If a carrier is hit by a sub, carrier and fighter on board must be destroyed!

@lnmajor:

I have no problem with a battleship or carrier being sunk on 1 hit from a first shot attack from a sub on a 1-2 die roll. thats the way i have been playing it. but a automatic hit and sink on capital warship with no die roll is way to strong.
I propose this: Either subs attacking unescorted capitol warships get 1 roll, if a 1-2 ship sunk on 1st hit. if sub misses,sub is considered submerged,breaks off attack,but if it stays in sea zone to try again next turn or follows same shipsinto another sea zone to try again next turn, destroyer and cruisers detection roll is upped to 1-4 becouse sub is known to be activly prowling area.
alittle more complicated here but if your going for realism this would be better i think.

I will discuss this issue with our AA group and see what we can come up with. The only long range sortee by unescorted battleships that I have ever heard of are the German convoy raiders of WW II. I just feel that there should be some penalty for a player doing such a foolish thing in AA. Maybe a one shot attack and then submerge is enough. If the one shot attack was made by a wolf pack of three to five subs it could be adios city for an unescorted battleship or carrier. So I guess that puts us back to the OoB rules.