Delta +1

Yea.

I think we should work on Vichy France rules next. Easier than tech

making it as easy as possible.

When Paris is first occupied by Axis forces, the remaining French areas go into a new disposition.

Vichy
Southern France
Morocco
Algeria
Tunisia
Syria
Madagascar

These are new Vichy French areas and become strict neutrals. ( French Indo-China has it’s own special rules, so not included)

If any player attacks a Vichy area, it has no bearing on the other areas. They fight independently.

French West Africa, French Central Africa, and French Equatorial Africa are considered Free French, which are pro-allies. All French naval units are removed, along with all units located in Normandy. All other French units stay in place and fight as standing armies where they are.

Diplomacy rules are in effect only the cost is number of units in area ( obviously its not printed on the map)

I think the french naval units were too important of an issue to just brush aside.

On France’s turn, roll a die for each of it’s naval units.
1 - Replace with UK unit
2 - Scuttled
3 - Stays French (roll again next turn)
4 - Stays French (roll again next turn)
5 - Scuttled
6 - Replace with German unit

A French ship next to an allied territory will never become German.
A French ship next to an axis territory will never become UK.
If you roll those in either case, they are scuttled.

I’d even consider writing some rules to run France as some sort of robotic power that no player controls (it just follows a flowchart for its actions on its turn)
I’d also add some more French naval units (one or two more) if that were the case.

Remember, the UK attacked and killed over 1000 French sailors to prevent the French fleet from falling into the hands of the Germans.

Yea normally i would say the ships are interned at Dakar ( French West Africa) and some rules just like you posted for scuttled ships, etc are made.

I had the intention of making it easy and to not disrupt balance ( Battleship going to axis).

IN any event the French navy had no impact on the war during post defeat. The modeling is supposed to reflect that, but like Xeno games does it could be fun to do the ‘lottery’ thing with the French navy.

Wasn’t a French Battleship (and possibly others) taken back to New York, repaired and used in the war in the Atlantic?

I know there was also an Aircraft Carriers in the Caribbean Islands at (or near the start) of the war.

As far as the Naval units in Dakar,  wouldn’t it make a lot of sense to change those to strict Neutral and attach them to the Territory of French West Africa?  Then you could add the unit IPC totals to that terr. for Diplomacy… or make that sea zone a diplomatic entity of its own.

There-by making it a VERY costly affair to persuade (giving the Advantage to the Allies) while at the same time making it a bit of a bigger obstacle  attacking players (Needing to eliminate naval units prior to attacking the coast).

Just an idea.

Yea they had one French warship that fired at Normandy as shore bombardment, but one BB does not represent one unit ( more like 3-4) so it’s below the threshold. The main problem is balance. Some of these can have a dramatic effect for the axis, especially in naval and getting it outside the Baltic. If enough ships turned axis that would help Italy too.

Well there is no BB on the board anyway… I was just saying that French vessels were converted to serve Allied purposes.  As were a number of smaller vessels for Axis purposes.

I understand that having the “turning” of vessels can change the course of the game…  isn’t that kind of the idea of creating “Neutral Diplomacy rules”?  Creating options and variability?

However, the attempts to turn any such vessels requires an investment of I.P.C.  Those investments are also taking away from other units that could be produced with said money.  Therefore attempting (or even being successful) does not come without a real cost to other fronts and or strategies.  And since both teams have the opportunity to acquire said units (and they are essentially being paid for at a 1:1 basis of cost) you’re not really disturbing the balance of the game.  Instead what you’d be doing is adding a good element of variability to the predictability of each game.  The real difference for game play would not come from being successful (as essentially you are already “paying” for the units… the real cost to game-play would be the effects of every attempt that was unsuccessful.

But the benefit is also positional. The allies don’t want axis units running around in the Atlantic able to escape and perform a dash to the Medd, or worst around Cape Horn and mess with UK Indian fleet.

For the axis, they just killed most of the British navy on G1, now another navy turned for UK making that race easier for allies.

Just dealing with the land and air would almost cut out all the funny things that go on in games.

But we just got to playtest the rule that was proposed by Oztea. Thats the bottom line.

also i think the disposition should be final after the first roll…. rolling every turn makes the rules even more subject to glitching.

1 - Replace with UK unit
2 - Scuttled
3 - Stays French (roll again next turn)
4 - Stays French (roll again next turn)
5 - Scuttled
6 - Replace with German unit

3 and 4 should be Vichy and that’s it without any further rolling. Vichy naval goto protect Vichy areas or be interned at Dakar ( FWA). If FWA is attacked the fleet is released to fight the enemy, and FWA is not convertible under diplomacy rules ( too much at stake).

FCA and FEA are Free French ( pro allies).

Hmm… what is the point of creating Vichy rules if the end result is to not change anything at all?

And if having a role of 1 or 6 add units to either side, then how is that any different?  Now you’re changing the game in 1 role without any risk/expenditure to either side?  That seems more like a planned imbalance then anything else.

The goal is not to create a disadvantageous ‘boon’ for either side.

It is to have realistic and playable Vichy rules. Vichy should be used by the axis to bolster the underbelly of Europe, so it does not have to commit forces for it’s defense ( at least less)

For the allies, they can use a few more Free French pieces and 3 more pro allies neutrals.

If you want basically roll for expensive French naval units and let the game get unbalanced once again with lottery rules, then it seems to mess up the game. The current OOB treats all post France defeat units as allied controlled forces that fight the axis. The changes reduce the allied advantage and give the axis some options. To further allow rolling of expensive naval units and have them mess up the game as they go axis ( potentially) is too far of a change.

The idea is to provide what the game claims it lacks: “This game doesn’t deal with the German installation of the Vichy government in France” ( p.10)

The goal here is to make rules that would look like they belong in the game, to bolster acceptance and credibility.

Shouldn’t there be some kind of risk vs. reward situation if you are going to create something other than what already exists?  It seems in keeping with the idea of re-thinking the Strict Neutral rules.  If you are going to re-define the role of neutral nations (and their willingness to join one side over the other) shouldn’t the same metrics be used to determine the fate of Vichy territories?

Shouldn’t there be the same level of “Boon” advantage potentially available to both teams?

I was just suggesting something slightly different.  Something that offered both sides the potential for an increased opportunity other than what already exists within the game.

Just curious?  Why would you go to any length to create a new set of rules that doesn’t change the game environment at all?  Doesn’t create more volatility rather than less?

What’s the point?

Post what ideas you specifically have on Vichy ( like you like to see it). Otherwise we don’t move forward.

What is the disposition of land-Air units outside Southern France? ( Like Normandy and colonies).

Need to clarify which areas Vichy and Free French.

What and who controls the French units that “remain French” They may be out at sea…so the ones that roll French need to goto Vichy areas right?

both Southern France and Normandy automatically become German territory

The Vichy capital is in southern France. To give Southern France to Germany is farcical IMO. Let them attack it like they did in 1942.

words like the ‘French underground’ need to be explained. The entire concept needs fleshing out and language similar to OOB in terms of style.

So also what is the list of Vichy areas?

VICHY FRANCE

When Paris falls to Germany, Normandy automatically becomes German controlled and Germany may use the Factory. However, the French land and air units do not perform non-combat movement and become either Vichy ( strict neutral) or Free French ( controlled UK player on his turn). However, the French Vichy units are considered strict neutral and fight any player that attacks them. They are subject to diplomacy rules. Below is the list of French areas and their disposition:

Vichy Areas: ( strict neutral)
Southern Europe
Morocco
Algeria
Tunisia
Syria
Madagascar
French Indo-China*

*FIC is a special case, strict neutral applies to all nations except Japan. In any case OOB rules prevail.

Free French Areas: ( pro-allies)
French West Africa
French Central Africa
French Equatorial Africa

During Germany’s collect income phase, the Free French naval units that remain (if any) can perform convoy disruptions* @ 1 dice per unit for a maximum of their territories IPC value. France no longer has a turn and all other Free French units on the board move during the United Kingdoms turn. If Germany wishes to avoid convoy disruptions in one or both territories, the French units must be attacked and removed before (or on the same turn) Paris falls.

*No convoy disruptions Free French naval units in sea zone #93.

Once Paris falls the UK player rolls a dice to determine the fate of her Navy:

1 = The fleet becomes British
2 = The fleet remains French
3 = The fleet remains French
4 = The fleet is removed
5 = The fleet is removed
6 = The fleet becomes German

Note: If Paris is liberated by the Allies, Vichy areas become Pro- Allies. France does not get restored as a full player with her own turn functions.