It’s all great! Artillery is great for Russia, Mechs are great for Germany, crusier and tactical bomber are useful for Japan USA and UK, and AAA add nice defense.
Delta +1
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@Imperious:
I think it would be better to use just a simple influence system.
On your turn you can try and bribe any neutral to become pro-axis or pro-allies. You sway them on a 6. Each die roll costs as much as the amount of infantry that are there.
(a roll in Spain costs 6, turkey CoolAnd if you fail, you pay another 6 IPC and the score is reduced to 5+.
Fail again and pay 6 IPC and the score is 4+
The enemy can also pay 6 IPC as influence and cancel the modifier.
This allows both sides to fight the diplomacy war.
This idea is more wholesome.
I like it too.
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Well just make sure the change happens at the end of the turn. So the US can’t turn Spain, and land a zillion things there unopposed. Germany has chance to attack and invade it and put a stack there.
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Call it diplomacy phase, done after placement with costs paid from money collected that turn.
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THE DIPLOMACY PHASE
In the “diplomacy phase” (the final phase of the turn sequence) any nation may negotiate with a strict neutral in order to occupy them.
During the diplomacy phase, you may choose 1 strict neutral to negotiate with, and pay cash in the amount equal to the standing army of that chosen territory. You than roll one 6 sided die for an opportunity to roll a 6. If successful, you immediately occupy that territory, and replace it’s standing army with your own troops. If failed, you may try again next turn with a -1 modifier to your diplomacy roll (only when negotiating with the same neutral). However, the cost of diplomacy rolls will always equal the standing army in every attempt.
Each time an enemy nation negotiates with the same strict neutral you have negotiated with, you will gain a +1 modifier to your diplomacy roll when attempting to negotiate with that neutral (maximum +5). Modifiers are not transferable among allies.
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NEUTRAL BLOCKS
When a nation attacks a strict neutral territory, all remaining strict neutrals within that block will become pro-opponent.
The 4 neutral blocks are….
1. South America
2. Europe (including the middle east)
3. Africa (not including the middle east)
4. Mongolia -
If failed, you may try again next turn with a -1 modifier to your diplomacy roll (only when negotiating with the same neutral).
You got to clarify that you must pay another fee to get the roll, not like tech.
Also, i hope you keep a file on all these ideas.
The forum can tackle each new idea, but you got to maintain records.
Latter repost the entire body of ideas as a module.
IMO.
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Now it sounds even cooler. So now it would be possible to take over a strict neutral without even being adjacent. For example, on G1 Germany could negotiate with Turkey and bring it into the Axis even though it would be pretty much impossible for Germany to have any troops adjacent to Turkey by the end of G1.
By the way, we use Neutral blocks too, but we use five:
1 South America - all South American countries
2 Africa - all territories in Africa
3 Europe - Portugal, Spain, Eire, Switzerland and Sweeden
4 Middle East - Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan
5 Mongolia - all Mongolian territoriesWe just figured Turkey fits in better with the Middle East than Europe, even though a small part of Turkey is on the European continent.
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By the way, we use Neutral blocks too, but we use five:
1 South America - all South American countries
2 Africa - all territories in Africa
3 Europe - Portugal, Spain, Eire, Switzerland and Sweden
4 Middle East - Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan
5 Mongolia - all Mongolian territoriesId make this change too. Middle east has separate issues than Europe.
So what is the next idea for Delta?
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IMO Turkey is the most important strict neutral on the board. Turning SA and Afganastan is not enough risk for attacking Turkey, sometimes you need to trade history for game play. Also, some maybe more inclined to use the diplomacy phase if it were more risky to attack Europe.
IL, I will for sure keep records of our progress, and will edit the above rule.
The next issue is ethier a better victory condition end game system, or to tackle the tech charts.
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Are you considering tackling the strategic bombing equation?
A) Advanced Strategic Bombing
1. Day and Night Raids- A night raid may only be launched by units originating from an operative air base.
- The attacker may opt for a Night Raid. The “Interceptors” and “+2 Damage Bonus” rules are suspended.
- Daylight bombing is conducted as per normal rules.
2. Dog fighting bonuses - Interceptors in a territory with an operational air base intercept at +1 (‘2’ or less to hit)
- Heavy Bombers dog fight at +1 (‘2’ or less to hit)
- Jet Fighters intercept and escort at +1 (‘2’ or less to hit) (‘3’ or less when intercepting from an airbase)
3. Collateral Damage - Rolls of ‘1’ during daylight strategic bombing my instead be dealt as “collateral damage”
- Collateral damage is a hit against a unit in that territory or adjacent sea zone, assigned by the defender
- Air Base (air unit or assigned AA gun is chosen as a casualty)
- Naval Base (adjacent naval unit or assigned AA gun is chosen as a casualty)
- Industrial Complex (land unit or assigned AA gun is chosen as a casualty)
4. AA gun requirement - Facilities no longer have built in AA protection. At the beginning of the Strategic Attack the defender must assign AA guns to each facility in order for it to have AA protection. Each AA gun may only fire three times.
5. Airbases give boosts to interceptors and strategic attacks - Strategic bombers launched from an operational airbase do an additional +1 (now +3) damage during strategic attacks.
- Interceptors that share a territory with an operational airbase hit on ‘2’ or less during dog fights.
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Personaly I don’t think there is anything wrong with the SBR rules, but I like the concept without all the complexity (no offense). How about this….
Around the clock bombing raid:
When departing from an operational airbase, Bombers may bomb on their allies turn, but may not send their own escorts.
Ex: Itallian bombers may bomb on Germany’s combat round when accompanied by at least one German bomber, but may not use Itallian escorts. Germany can bomb on Italy’s combat round when accompanied by at least 1 Itallian bomber, but may not use German escorts.
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I think the SBR rules are fine, except if you play with techs and get jet fighters, the defending interceptors should roll 2 or less ( not one) if defending for SBR.
Also, sorry to go back to last section but…
I think i got a better idea on diplomacy phase.
Use Turkey for example… pay 6 IPC and need a 6 to score pro-allegiance. A player should not have to pay more money if they fail, rather you get one roll each turn like tech.
HOWEVER, you also have the option of paying another 6 IPC ( Turkey as example) to OBTAIN a lower threshold on die roll ( 5-6). At this point you paid a total of 12 IPC and roll once each turn 5-6. You can even pay another increment of 6 and get to 4-6 for success.
Also, what you pay is only for that neutral, you cant switch to another neutral ( unless you pay that money too)…the money you pay is only for that neutral you originally selected.
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@Imperious:
I think i got a better idea on diplomacy phase.
I agree IL, lets keep workinhg on this, we can do better.
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Yes, in the case of Turkey, those 6 Infantry are only worth 18 IPC, so i cant see the benefit of diplomacy if you pay 18 IPC for 3 rolls…
Makes more sense that you get another roll each turn like tech, with option of lowering the score by paying another fee. Thats fair all around and not more complicated.
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THE DIPLOMACY PHASE
During the purchase new units phase, any nation may purchase as many diplomats as they wish (including none) for $15 each. During the place new units phase, nations may place their newly purchased diplomats on any strict neutral (1 per territory).
During the diplomatic phase (the last phase in the turn sequence), each diplomat will roll 2d6 for an opportunity to turn the neutral it is negotiating with.
The formula for turning neutrals is as follows:
The territorial IPC value of the neutral
+
The total number of standing army available
+
The total amount of any originally owned enemy territories adjacent to the neutral
+
(1) for any enemy diplomats in the same neutral being negotiated forThe total amount of any originally owned territories adjacent to the neutral
The total amount of any originally owned allied territories adjacent to the neutral
The amount a successful roll must be higher than, in order to turn the neutral.
NOTE: any number that falls below 8, must become an automatic 7.Once a neutral has been turned, that nation may choose to pay $10 to move the successful diplomat to a different territory or remove it from the board. If successful again, that nation may move the same diplomat to a different neutral for $5, after which he may not be moved again.
Any diplomats that have successfully turned 3 neutrals, or have not been payed to continue, must be removed from the board immediately.
Any new diplomats entering the board during the purchase new units phase cost $15. Any diplomats that wish to break off negotiations and open new talks with a different neutral, must pay $15. Any diplomats that lost a neutral to an enemy diplomat, may be redeployed for $15, or removed from the board.
Only nations at war may deploy diplomats in order to turn neutrals.
NEUTRAL BLOCKS
Here is a list of all the strict neutrals with their IPC value and standing army. I have also included any originally owned territories that may be adjacent.
When attacking a strict neutral outright, all other neutrals within that block become pro-opponent. The following is a list of all 4 blocks and the strict neutrals that occupy them.
IPC / STANDING ARMY *ADJ. TERRITORIES
South America
Venezuela 2/2 *0
Argentina 2/4 *0
Chile 2/2 *0Europe
Portugal 1/2 *0
Spain 2/6 *1-FRA,1-UK
Switzerland 0/2 *1-FRA,1-GER,1-ITA
Sweden 3/6 *1-GER
Turkey 2/8 *1-FRA,1-USSRAfrica and the Middle East
Angolia 1/2 *3-UK
Mozambique 1/2 *3-UK
Saudi Arabia 2/2 *1-UK
Afganastan 0/4 *1-UK,2-USSRMongolia
Olgiy 0/2 *2-USSR,1-CHN
Dzavhan 0/1 *2-USSR
Tsagaan Olom 0/0 *2-CHN
Central Mongolia 0/0 *2-CHN
Ulaanbaatar 0/1 *3-USSR
Buyant Uhaa 0/2 *2-JPN,1-USSR,1-CHN -
Mongolia should be treated as one country, with a diplomatic cost of 5 because they got 5 infantry total. Also, Mongolia should be a special case and exempt from these rules. This nation is really quasi part of the Soviet Union as a semi-autonomous state. It would be tampered by Japan and mess up the Non-aggression pact. It’s best to just void it out to avoid rules conflict and the spirit of these rules which strive for simplicity.
Also, i thought we agreed to drop the adjacent thing? All the rule is you spend IPC equal to army count, and roll 6 every turn.
With those modifiers Switzerland and others are an easy ‘5th column’ for Germany
OR you have the choice to spend another IPC fee (after the last failure to roll a 6) and get a +1 modifier ( still 6 to get the neutral to go pro)
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@Imperious:
Mongolia should be treated as one country, with a diplomatic cost of 5 because they got 5 infantry total. Also, Mongolia should be a special case and exempt from these rules. This nation is really quasi part of the Soviet Union as a semi-autonomous state. It would be tampered by Japan and mess up the Non-aggression pact. It’s best to just void it out to avoid rules conflict and the spirit of these rules which strive for simplicity.
Also, i thought we agreed to drop the adjacent thing? All the rule is you spend IPC equal to army count, and roll 6 every turn.
With those modifiers Switzerland and others are an easy ‘5th column’ for Germany
OR you have the choice to spend another IPC fee (after the last failure to roll a 6) and get a +1 modifier ( still 6 to get the neutral to go pro)
Nothings final, I’m just reexamining the potential of this formula by putting it in the light.
For example, if you look at the nationality of adjacent territories per neutral, you will see that Germany doesn’t have the advantage, because Swizerland and Sweden are the only territories Germany is adjacent too. If you look at the potential of what America can do when it enters the war, it makes the whole Germany with Sweden to powerfull argument weak.
I have adjusted adjacent territory modifiers to only originally owned territories, Therefore, Germany negotiating for Sweden would look like this…
3+6+0+0-1-0=8
- One more above craps
- 9 if the UK places a diplomat in Sweeden
- 11 if all three allies place a diplomat in Sweeden
Is Sweden easy for Germany?.. perhaps, but what about 90% of all other strict neutrals on the board? the adjacent territory modifier works against them in almost all cases. If the Americans want Spain, they will receive a -1 modifier for Gibraltar which will put their roll at 7. For that reason, I’m OK if Sweden is easy for Germany.
The reason I brought this back to life is because there are a lot of good things in this formula. Can it work, is it to complicated, can it be modified, or should we scrap it?
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Swedish infantry is of great advantage to Germany against Russia. They are adjacent to 2 areas.
To make the system like OOB Tech makes it easy to remember. The only thing we add is the cost is not 5 IPC but fixed to standing army.
Rolling 2 dice together has a different score, than to just roll one d6. What i mean by this is rolling 7 is easier than 2 or 12 due to the combinations.
The system with 2D6 allows too quick conversion of neutrals, due in part to the modifiers.
Make the rule as smooth as possible. The adjacent area modifier idea might work better with d12, but that requires people buying stuff.
If the final rule is close to tech in how it’s obtained, more people will adopt it because it is easy to remember.
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Ya Maybe, The formula was pretty cool though.
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Is this what we’re working on?
THE DIPLOMACY PHASE
In the “diplomacy phase” (the final phase of the turn sequence) any nation may negotiate with a strict neutral in order to occupy them.During the diplomacy phase, you may choose 1 strict neutral to negotiate with, and pay cash in the amount equal to the standing army of that chosen territory. You than roll one 6 sided die for an opportunity to roll a 6. If successful, you immediately occupy that territory, and replace it’s standing army with your own troops. If failed, you may try again next turn with a -1 modifier to your diplomacy roll (only when negotiating with the same neutral). However, the cost of diplomacy rolls will always equal the standing army in every attempt.
Each time an enemy nation negotiates with the same strict neutral you have negotiated with, you will gain a +1 modifier to your diplomacy roll when attempting to negotiate with that neutral (maximum +5). Modifiers are not transferable among allies.
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