@wittmann:
Hi Antholin. The only map changes I can see are that the National Production chart is on the map now(40 on each) and the two Canadian territories on the Pacific map(Yukon and BC) are now one (no change in IPCs)called Western Canada.
As you said, rules and some pieces have changed.
Thank you for the info. I was hoping that WoTC didn’t re-issue the games with major changes to the map.
So can Anzac still land 3 fighters on Java the same round it takes Dutch island? But yugoslavia or northern persia etc (pro allied neutrals) are a no go.
@Cow:
So can Anzac still land 3 fighters on Java the same round it takes Dutch island? But yugoslavia or northern persia etc (pro allied neutrals) are a no go.
The DEI are already friendly territories. They’re not neutral. The only difference between DEI and a french territory (for example) is that control is transferred to the UK/Anzac should a land unit of their enter the territory, which would not occur with a french territory. But both are allied friendly and NOT neutral.
So yes, the planes can land. And no, they cannot land in a neutral.
I’m trying to clarify retreat rules and amphibious assaults. If you attack a territory by amphibious assault with planes I know the land units can not retreat, but can the planes retreat after any round of combat? Do you have to wait until all the land units were killed before you can retreat your planes, or can they retreat after any complete round of combat regardless of whether or not ground units are still alive. If they can, do they all have to land in the same territory? Does that territory have to be one that at least one plane came from?
If you amphibious assault and attack overland to the same territory, can the amphibious units retreat if you so choose? As long as it is to a territory that overland units came from of course.
I have understood that Air units can retreat at the end of any round of combat along with any Ground units that did not land amphibiously, leaving the amphibiously landed Ground units to fight to the death. Air can retreat therefore, but the eligible Ground units would have to retreat too(usual one space from which at least one came). Amphibiously landed units cannot ever retreat. See page 18 of Europe.
Air units can retreat at any time after the first round of combat. They don’t “retreat” to a territory, though. They stay in the territory, removed from the battle. Then in their NCM phase they can use any remaining movement points to get where they want.
If an amphibious assault includes overland units, overland units may retreat at any point after the first round of combat. The overland units may retreat to any territory that any overland units came from. All overland units must retreat simultaneously and to the same territory (ie, no split retreats) that at least one unit came from.
Units which assaulted amphibiously can never retreat once they leave the transport. If there was a sea battle prior to the land battle, and a retreat was needed in the sea battle, the loaded transports could retreat with the retreating naval units. They would then have to remain loaded until the next turn. If an amphibious assault is aborted in this fashion, all overland and air units are still committed to at least one round of battle before they are allowed to retreat.
Thank you Fortress. You explained that more clearly than me.
Follow-up questions about retreating:
So amphibiously landed troops can not retreat ever, even if land troops also attacked overland?
Let’s say you are attacking overland from one territory to another with air units. Can the air units retreat after any round of combat while the land units keep attacking, or does this only work with amphibious assaults?
Thanks!
(1) Correct. If you land amphibious assault, those units may not retreat - it is win or die for them.
(2) You may retreat your aircraft before any round of combat - just choose to do so before throwing dice for them. (and if they are in the battle, you must throw dice for them!)
@Cmdr:
(2) You may retreat your aircraft before any round of combat - just choose to do so before throwing dice for them. (and if they are in the battle, you must throw dice for them!)
To be clear (because I can’t tell if you answered incorrectly or simple incompletely):
If you retreat, ALL units that can retreat MUST retreat. Amphibious units can NEVER retreat. However, in Ryguy’s example, you cannot retreat air units leaving land units behind if they weren’t an amphibious assault. Air units cannot retreat separately from other units that are retreating. Per page 18 of the Pac 1940 rules:
If there is a retreat, air units and overland units (if any) must retreat at the same time. Air units will land during the Noncombat Move phase.
I’m not quite sure how this would play out. SZ 6 only has subs and ANZAC amphibious assaults Korea with a transport, cruiser and destroyer. Since only subs are there they are ignored, but Japan sends kamikazes and sinks both ANZAC ships. My question is can ANZAC still ignore subs and land troops or now that escorts are dead they can’t unload? Also would kamikazes make it a sea battle so that now the subs can defend an take shots at my transport since my other surface vessels were sunk?
To piggyback that question with another: can a transport ignore a sub if it is accompanied by only a fighter that can’t hit the sub? I believe (and I don’t have them in front of me) that the rules state that the escort has to have an attack value. That rules out a carrier-only escort. But is the fighter a valid escort? It has an attack value, but could not hit the sub if there was to be a battle. Does that matter?
To piggyback that question with another: can a transport ignore a sub if it is accompanied by only a fighter that can’t hit the sub? I believe (and I don’t have them in front of me) that the rules state that the escort has to have an attack value. That rules out a carrier-only escort. But is the fighter a valid escort? It has an attack value, but could not hit the sub if there was to be a battle. Does that matter?
I asked this same question over at HBG a little while ago. You can find the question and answer here starting with my question on top (Ryguy): http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4280&start=1032
Basically, as the attacker you need to have an attack value that can actually hit the sub. Since you aren’t attacking with a destroyer, the plane has no way to hit the sub and therefore if you go through with the attack the sub has no reason to submerge and it’s only a matter of time then before they roll a 1 and sink your transport. You need to bring a surface warship with an attack value to have any chance of killing the sub and allowing for an amphibious assault. You don’t even need to bring a destroyer since they defender can choose to submerge and you’re good to go, or he can choose to roll dice and you can destroy the sub.
Here’s the difference from your scenario: you were going up against a DD and a SS. So there definitely was going to be a naval battle. In this scenario, there is only a SS. In a naval battle, if nothing can hit the sub and the battle goes long enough without a retreat, the transport is going to be sunk. The question is, can the presence of a fighter (who HAS an attack value, albeit one that’s useless against a sub) allow the transport to ignore the sub as all naval units can?
In short, there will definitely NOT be a naval battle in any case. At issue is merely whether the transport will be allowed to combat unload - ie amphib assault - with only a fighter as its escort.
I just checked out the pacific edition 2 rulebook, and on page 13 it says that if only subs or transports are in the defending sea zone, as the attacker you can ignore them or choose to fight them (it’s in the little blue box on that page).
Furthermore, but more to your point, on page 15 it says that transports are not allowed to unload in a sea zone that has subs that were ignored UNLESS you have a at least one WARSHIP belonging to the attacking power. Therefore if you only have a plane you cannot go through with the amphibious assault.
Here’s the difference from your scenario: you were going up against a DD and a SS. So there definitely was going to be a naval battle. In this scenario, there is only a SS. In a naval battle, if nothing can hit the sub and the battle goes long enough without a retreat, the transport is going to be sunk. The question is, can the presence of a fighter (who HAS an attack value, albeit one that’s useless against a sub) allow the transport to ignore the sub as all naval units can?
It is my understanding that the fighter has an attack value and therefore may escort the transport despite its inability to sink the submarine. I know for a fact I have used battleships and cruisers to “escort” transports past Submarines in the past - I may have been wrong doing it, but my reading of the rules is “with an attack value” and no mention of whether or not it can actually attack the submarine.
Historically speaking, I guaren-frackin-ty you if there was a fighter strafing the surface of the water trying to hit a surfaced submarine, it would most certainly have submerged to avoid the combat. It is also my understanding that, since this is the case, the reason you need a destroyer to sink the submarine is becuase it is submerging and you have to find it - and that a submerged submarine may not continue to attack. (it leaves the battle much like fighters can “retreat” from a battle, but dont actually leave the zone during the combat move phase.)
I’m not quite sure how this would play out. SZ 6 only has subs and ANZAC amphibious assaults Korea with a transport, cruiser and destroyer. Since only subs are there they are ignored, but Japan sends kamikazes and sinks both ANZAC ships. My question is can ANZAC still ignore subs and land troops or now that escorts are dead they can’t unload? Also would kamikazes make it a sea battle so that now the subs can defend an take shots at my transport since my other surface vessels were sunk?
ANZAC can still ignore the subs. The ANZAC warships were in the sea zone at the end of combat movement (kamikaze don’t strike until the Conduct Combat phase), so they met the escort requirement. Kamikaze by themselves don’t initiate an actual battle, so the subs can still be ignored.
To piggyback that question with another: can a transport ignore a sub if it is accompanied by only a fighter that can’t hit the sub? I believe (and I don’t have them in front of me) that the rules state that the escort has to have an attack value. That rules out a carrier-only escort. But is the fighter a valid escort? It has an attack value, but could not hit the sub if there was to be a battle. Does that matter?
The requirement is that a warship must be in the sea zone at the end of combat movement, so a fighter doesn’t qualify. There is no requirement that the warship have an attack value, so a carrier will do.
Thanks, Krieg! Although, the second part of your answer is contradicted by page 32 of the rulebook under “no combat value” for transports:
“Transports may not attack without being accompanied by at least 1 unit with an attack value, unless they are conducting an amphibious assault from a friendly sea zone that is free of enemy submarines.”
Since the sea zone is not free of enemy submarines, then the “unless” part of the rule doesn’t apply and the first part of the statement must be followed; that “Transports may not attack without being accompanied by at least 1 unit with an attack value.”
Per the letter of that law, it doesn’t seem that a carrier-only escort through sub-infested waters is acceptable. Thank you for answering my question (and now I see it on page 16E and page 15P where it says “warship”. However, now I’m even more confused about the carrier inclusion based on what it says on page 32…
I’m not quite sure how this would play out. SZ 6 only has subs and ANZAC amphibious assaults Korea with a transport, cruiser and destroyer. Since only subs are there they are ignored, but Japan sends kamikazes and sinks both ANZAC ships. My question is can ANZAC still ignore subs and land troops or now that escorts are dead they can’t unload? Also would kamikazes make it a sea battle so that now the subs can defend an take shots at my transport since my other surface vessels were sunk?
ANZAC can still ignore the subs. The ANZAC warships were in the sea zone at the end of combat movement (kamikaze don’t strike until the Conduct Combat phase), so they met the escort requirement. Kamikaze by themselves don’t initiate an actual battle, so the subs can still be ignored.
Thanks Krieg!
