The Missing Mechanized Unit: Assault Guns

@toblerone77:

Baron, my only point was there are now two threads talking about this. I didn’t say that you shouldn’t post or what you are saying isn’t interesting. I was politely trying to point out that that people are all going to have differing ideas.

With all due respect, and I apologize if I’m taking it differently from your intent, your large amount of posts on the subject and additional thread seemed to suggest that you are aiming for a semi-official HR. I don’t have a problem with that either.

In my post you recently cited, I wish you would have highlighted the fact that I also complimented knp for his ideas but that I was using my units slightly differently.

If you took offense I apologize. I’ve been reading both threads with interest and have enjoyed everyone’s posts.

Don’t know how my other thread could become a semi-official HR…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32892.msg1243157#msg1243157
I have no kind of authority to such a claim.

It was a more limited paradigm inside a simplified way of giving stats and considering those units: Mechanized (MI/ SPA/ SPG-TD) vs Tank (Light/ Medium/ Advance/ Heavy) units, which I hoped anyone could add more specific input, such as CWO give an helping hand in better naming these categories.

In my post you recently cited, I wish you would have highlighted the fact that I also complimented knp for his ideas but that I was using my units slightly differently.

Sorry, no pun intended.

I’ve been reading both threads with interest and have enjoyed everyone’s posts.

Same for me.
I will comment yours in my next post.

@toblerone77:

@SS:

Ok. They were used more on defense than attack. Attack at 2 and defend at 3. Pick the land piece on a roll of 1 for attack and defend and blitzing because they were used on front lines too. So might have to change in my games do to being to strong on attack. Like barabossa game has them at ( 12d die ) attack at 7, defend at 5, pick piece on 2 or less on attack and defend and can blitz.

Well If we convert these stats to D6 attack would be D6@3.5  defense would be D6@2.5, I still resist using D12 but the advantage is clear in that you can essentially roll 1/2 PIPs in the A&A dice mechanic. I’m not saying “go with my stats”, but trying not to stray too much from OOB stats and cost I chose to give the TD a matched cost to SPA. Just IMO I see the TD as more as an offensive weapon, a lighter or medium tank but with a big gun.

However, looking at the stats you could put the TD in the “classic tank” cost bracket of 5 A3/D2/M2 and SPA A2/D2/M2/C5 SPA basically same as ART but can move another space.

Now The reason I gave TDs the stats A3/D1/M2/C5 is because I use light tanks @ A2/D1/M2/C4 these are offensively balanced against OOB MINF and OOB ART

Essentially in a 4IPC cost bracket light tanks give mobility and offense. MINF give mobility and defense. OOB art give a balance of defense and offense at the cost of mobility.

Paying one more IPC (5 price bracket) the TD gives firepower and mobility (A3/D1/M2) but at a cost of lighter defensive capability. The SPA gives a balance of firepower, defense, and the addition flexibility of supporting infantry. Defensive score of 1 if using light tanks.

Finally in my HRs I allow anything that land-based that move two spaces (other than empty transport trucks) to blitz.

This post was just how I reasoned my cost/combat structure given the pieces I intend to use with a D6 system.

When you say:

in my HRs I allow anything that land-based that move two spaces (other than empty transport trucks) to blitz.

are you including Mech Inf in itself?

Your way of seeing SPAs, is clearly within the most popular way of using them.

On the other part, your way of reasoning TD is original and needs to be emphasized.

Instead of just giving a specific value to TD in itself, you have a more larger scope.
It give a more specific tactical values to TD inside a set of other units:

Essentially in a 4IPC cost bracket light tanks give mobility and offense. MINF give mobility and defense. OOB art give a balance of defense and offense at the cost of mobility.

Light Tank A2D1M2C4 + TD A3D1M2C5 = A5+1D2M2C9
vs
Mech Inf A1D2M2C4 + SPA A2D2M2C5 = A3+1D4M2C9

Both paired units keep 8 A/D pts for 9 IPCs. Which seems at first glance quite balance.
Mech Inf+ SPA are a balance pairs on offense and defense: A4/D4
But clearly TD+LightTk are far more dangerous on offense: A6/D2

And your historical way of seeing TD units seems the exact opposite of Knp7765 TDs:
@knp7765:

@SS:

How about attack at 3 defend at 2 and choose any land vehicle as its target on a roll of 1 for attack only. Cost 5 and can blitz.

I think tank destroyers were more of a defensive weapon – ie. laying in wait for attacking armor to come to it.
So I would think attack 2, defend 3 and the roll of 1 allows it to target when defending, although I think the targeting ability should be on attack and defense, but if I had to choose one I would choose defense first.

On an historical accuracy point, still don’t know which aspect should get the better hand to define more accuratly TD:
Bigger gun, often used as support for Light Tank and less armor than a Tank: A3D1
+1A when paired to Light Tank
Stay within OOB paradigm.
vs
Almost same armor than a Tank, but no turret which mean less offensive manoeuvrability: A2D3.
Or a A2D2 with some Tank Hunter ability mostly on defense. Or, as Knp7765 pointed, the Tank Hunter capacity, even on offense, is in itself a defensive capacity.  
But the “1” rolled targeting casualty of the Tank Hunter capacity is outside AAA paradigm rules.

This was my general analysis.

Now I want to rise a question of game balance and units optimization and specificity:
With such an offensive power A6 with 2 units,
the blitzing capacity
and the low cost: 4+5= 9 IPCs

It seems to me that Medium Tank becomes a non-sense buy.
2 MdTk get same A6 for 12 IPCs.
With LTk+TD you get an additionnal Inf for the same cost of 2 MdTk.
This means:
LTk+TD+Inf= A7D4C12, 3 hits vs 2MdTk A6D6C12, 2 hits

Because A&A gives an advantage to the attacker when it comes to where and how it chooses to attack: this combination of LTk and TD 2A3 moving 2 spaces seems powerful even if it cannot hold the conquered ground with a 2D1 as MdTk 2D3 (which is far less important than the first attacking assault).

I think it needs a little cost adjustment and/or A/D modif. to fix it.
Because, at 9 IPCs it should keep a 8 A/D pts total to be equal match to Mech Inf+ SPA.
Option A:
Maybe just giving TD A2D2M2C5, +1A to LTk when paired with.
So LTk+TD= A5D3M2C9

Option B:
Or rising the defense and cost of LTk A2D2M2C5.
So LTk + TD A3D1C5 = A6D3C10

These will keep the interesting tactical defence vs offence difference between these 2 paired units:
MI + SPA vs LTk + TD.
Option A) A4D4C9 vs A5D3C9
Option B) A4D4C9 vs A6D3C10

Here is the scaled progression of paired units moving at 2.

Based upon B) LTk A2D2M2C5 & TD A3D1M2C5  vs A) LTk A2D1M2C4 & TD A2D2M2C5

1 MInf +Art = A4D4C8M1
2 Mech Infs = A2D4C8
                                                 1 MI+ LTank = A3D3C8
                                                 2 LightTanks = A4D2C8
1 MI+ LTank = A3D4C9
1 MI+ TankD= A4D3C9               1 MI+ TankD= A3D4C9
1 MInf+ SPA= A4D4C9                1 LTk + SPA = A4D3C9
                                                 1 LTk + TD = A5D3C9

2 LightTanks= A4D4C10
1 LTk+ SPA = A4D4C10
1 TD + SPA = A5D3C10                1 TD + SPA = A4D4C10
2 TankDests= A6D2C10                 2 TankDests= A4D4C10
1 TD + LTk = A6D3C10

1 SPA+MdTk= A5D5C11
1 LTk+MdTk= A5D5C11                 1 LTk+MdTk= A5D4C10
1 TD+MdTk = A6D4C11                1 TD+MdTk = A5D5C11

2 Med Tanks= A6D6C12

My preferred choice is option A, on the right.
Because, when a Tank is present you get the same offensive edge for a lower cost.
And keeps the best attacking value A6 to 2 Medium Tanks.

Well If somebody really wants to make it easy they can just take the HBG D12 stats and divide them by 2 and round up or down. There were also some older games on TripleA (before G40) that had stats for non-OOB units. The title was 1941 but has been removed from the DL list.

cost  move attack defend
SELF PROPELLED GUN 6 2   3     3
The target of self propelled gun is always tank.      (If there’s no more tank, this unit attack & defend at 2 against others units).

Infantry tank (Stug III) 4 1   2     2   (Infantry attack 2 in the first round of combat if mixed with a Stug).

@crusaderiv:

cost  move attack defend
SELF PROPELLED GUN 6 2  3    3
The target of self propelled gun is always tank.       (If there’s no more tank, this unit attack & defend at 2 against others units).

Infantry tank (Stug III) 4 1  2    2  (Infantry attack 2 in the first round of combat if mixed with a Stug).

Where is the difference between an Artillery unit and what you put as an Infantry tank?
Both move 1 space only!

I’m puzzled about your reference on STUG III because F and G model have a longer main gun and were used mainly as Tank Destroyer around 1942 and latter.

Is it possible that your “Infantry Tank” is just another name for a Self-Propelled Artillery (SPA) which many put at A2D2M2C5 and +1A to a paired Infantry?

I have just check on HBG sculpts, there is only 2 types which can fit both descriptions, and Stug IIIG is clearly a TD:
Hummel Self-Propelled Artillery
Stug IIIG Tank Destroyers

I’m under the impression that your Self-Propelled Gun is a Stug IIIG type.

@crusaderiv:

cost  move attack defend
SELF PROPELLED GUN 6 2  3    3
The target of self propelled gun is always tank.       (If there’s no more tank, this unit attack & defend at 2 against others units).

Another way to say it is:
Tank Destroyer A2D2M2C6, get +1 A/D bonus when any enemy’s Tank is present. Always hit Tank first.

Are you excluding Tank Destroyer, which means don’t get the +1 bonus and can’t target them?

I think crusader is just giving stats on how his group uses them. Like I said people will use custom units in various ways. He has some provenance in using the Stug III as an infantry support model. Some had “soft target” guns suited to infantry support while others were equipped  with high velocity guns for taking out armor. The model HBG sells looks to be an anti-armor model, However it could represent either depending upon one’s taste.

When these guns first came out I considered using them like the AAA guns of 1942SE and Global 2.0. They worked exactly like a AAA unit against armor except on offense they operated just like artillery with a move of two. There is a TON of stuff you could do with these. There’s really no right or wrong with these.

Hey Yavid,
You mentioned a mechanized AA gun but we currently don’t have a piece to represent them. When AMERIKA comes out we will. At least for Germany, Japan and US.

@knp7765:

Hey Yavid,
You mentioned a mechanized AA gun but we currently don’t have a piece to represent them. When AMERIKA comes out we will. At least for Germany, Japan and US.

You could totally paint those too to match OOB if you wanted. I know a lot of guys do some some single color paint jobs on thier units for various uses.

@toblerone77:

I think crusader is just giving stats on how his group uses them. Like I said people will use custom units in various ways. He has some provenance in using the Stug III as an infantry support model. Some had “soft target” guns suited to infantry support while others were equipped  with high velocity guns for taking out armor. The model HBG sells looks to be an anti-armor model, However it could represent either depending upon one’s taste.

I see.
However, do you have an idea which kind of sculpt replica suits Germany for the Tank Destroyer, if you exclude the Stug III G?
Is their another TD in the German army?

@toblerone77:

I think crusader is just giving stats on how his group uses them. Like I said people will use custom units in various ways. He has some provenance in using the Stug III as an infantry support model. Some had “soft target” guns suited to infantry support while others were equipped  with high velocity guns for taking out armor. The model HBG sells looks to be an anti-armor model, However it could represent either depending upon one’s taste.

Yes its from the game we play.

@SS:

@toblerone77:

I think crusader is just giving stats on how his group uses them. Like I said people will use custom units in various ways. He has some provenance in using the Stug III as an infantry support model. Some had “soft target” guns suited to infantry support while others were equipped  with high velocity guns for taking out armor. The model HBG sells looks to be an anti-armor model, However it could represent either depending upon one’s taste.

Yes its from the game we play.

What is the sculpt you used as Tank Destroyer (SPG)?
@crusaderiv:

cost  move attack defend
SELF PROPELLED GUN 6 2   3     3
The target of self propelled gun is always tank.      (If there’s no more tank, this unit attack & defend at 2 against others units).

I’m using the Hummel from HBG ( haven’t looked for different one yet ) and is only available through Weapons development Tech starting on turn 7. But if you draw a card and says free tech roll during the first 6 turns, then you have a chance to get it if you roll a 6.

I think crusader is just giving stats on how his group uses them. Like I said people will use custom units in various ways. He has some provenance in using the Stug III as an infantry support model. Some had “soft target” guns suited to infantry support while others were equipped  with high velocity guns for taking out armor.

Yes exactly. Our game begin in 1939 so we start the game with the early Stug.

However, do you have an idea which kind of sculpt replica suits Germany for the Tank Destroyer, if you exclude the Stug III G?
Is their another TD in the German army?

Yes. The Jagdpanzer series like the Marder/Hetzer.

For the german tank destroyer I choose the Elephant from CinC! (I love that beast)!!!
And SU 100 for the Russian.

Here is a more A&A paradigm rules version for a single type of Mobile Artillery unit (SPA / SPG /TD):

Mechanized Artillery (Assault Gun)
Attack: 2
Defense: 2
Move: 2
Cost: 5
Can only blitz when paired to a Tank.
Infantry Support: Give +1A to a paired Infantry or Mech Infantry
Tank Hunter as a tank support ability: Get +1A/D when paired to a Tank.

This unit can give and get both bonus as Inf support & Tank support when teamed with both MI and Tk on attack.

I think it could be viable and balance. I will try to show it in my next post.

The core of a ground battle is between A@3 vs D@2 unit.
With a Battlecalc, you get 50-50% chance of winning when 9 units @3 fight 11 units @2.
This means that a real balance cost of unit should be:
1 unit A3D3 should cost 5.5 IPCs and 1 unit A2D2 should cost 4.5 IPCs.

That explain why Tank moving 2 at 5 IPCs was a bit OverPowered vs other units like Art at 4 IPCs with M1.

Tank A3D3M2C6 compared to a A2D2M2C5 unit seems almost correct since both have a +.5 IPC over the balance level of 5.5  vs 4.5.

Now, about a MechArt A2D2M2C5 unit getting +1 A/D when paired to a Tank, it will be straight on the mark:
A6D6M2**C11 for 2 units, which is A3D3M2C5.5 for 1 unit**.
2 Tanks A6D6M2C12 are actually 1 IPC over the mark and this slight unbalancing effect increase of .5 IPC with each additional Tank.

You can see how good on defense is an Inf A1D2C3 being 1.5 under the line.
Even the MechInf is still .5 below the cost on defense.
(Not considering the offence, however. Which makes them less OP vs cost of A2D2 or A3D3.)

When comparing 2 units vs 2 units it is easier to see the slight unbalance:
1MI+1Art= A4 D4 C8 vs 2 Tk A6 D6 C12
MI+Art should cost 9 and 2 Tk, 11 so it is a direct -2 IPCs in favor of MI+Art.

1 MechI+1MechArt A2 D2 M2 C5= A4 D4 M2 C9, it is right on the 4.5 IPCs/ A2 D2 unit.

1 MechArt A2 D2 M2 C5 getting +1 A/D with Tk = A6 D6 M2 C11, it is right on the 5.5 IPC/ A3 D3 unit.

Do you see now how this sole MechArt (doing both Assault Gun role) with the Tank Support could be an interesting and balance unit between MechInf C4 and Tank C6. For those who just want to add a single new sculpt on the board.
It will increase the interest for both MechInf and Tank buying.
Because, to optimize your M2 units, you get the best when paired.
MI+MArt= 8 A/D pts for 9 IPCs. -1
MArt+Tk= 12 A/D pts for 11 IPCs. +1
MI+MArt+Tk= 16 pts for 15 IPCs. +1

compared to M1 pairing:
2Inf= 6 A/D pts for 6 IPCs. Even.
Inf+Art= 8 A/D pts for 7 IPCs. +1
MI+Art= 8 A/D pts for 8 IPCs. Even.

Here is a much more A&A paradigm rules version for a single type of Mobile Artillery unit (SPA / SPG /TD) that I revised from my previous post:

MECHANIZED ARTILLERY (Assault Gun)
Attack: 2
Defense: 2
Move: 2
Cost: 5
Can blitz when at least a Tank is present in a group of units.
It means that any number of Mechanized Artillery can blitz when a Tank is blitzing. In addition, this Tank can be already paired to a Mechanized Infantry while blitzing.
Infantry Support: Give +1A to a paired Infantry or Mechanized Infantry.
Tank Hunter as a Tank Support ability: Get +1A/D when paired to a Tank.

This unit on attack cannot give and get both bonus as Inf support & Tank support when teamed up with both MI and Tk.
You must choose which bonus is use, and can change during the battle round, switching from one to the other according to which unit the MechArt is paired to.

I think it could be better balance and nearer A&A pairing bonus.

Some may prefer give +1 on Defense only when paired to a Tank but this unit will be much more appealing if it gets +1A also.

I think it will be nearer the historical records about all kind of Mechanized Artillery.
Germany for instance built a lot of them and even much more than Tanks during WWII, specially StuGIII type.
And during the game, it will be a way to get an optimized built by having a Mech Art paired to an already existing Tank. It will follow the same progression than WWII, this unit getting more and more popular as the war evolved.

In itself it will be weaker (A2D2C5) but cheaper than medium Tank (A3D3C6).

But was useful for both Inf and Tank support.
And dangerous against Tank, hence gaining the bonus on A/D making them as valuable than a reg Tank but keeping the need to buy Tank to get Mechanized Artillery such a useful unit on offense and defense.

I also learned that during WWII both Artillery division (supporting Infantry) and Panzer division were having struggle with the Army Chief Command over StuG being part of their unit instead of the other.

Even this aspect can be depicted by the dual bonus for being paired to Inf and MechInf or with Tank.

Here is an updated post in which I tried to summarize all ideas given on this thread and some elsewhere about three types of unit:
1-Self-Propelled Artillery (SPA). Mostly mobile indirect fire unit.
2-Self-Propelled Gun (SPG) also known as Tank Destroyer (TD). Mostly mobile direct fire unit.
3-Mechanized Artillery (which is essentially 1 A&A unit doing both functions above and put between Mech Inf and Tank) for those who don’t want to split hairs too much.

Hope you find yours HR/customized units inside this post and find this post useful to make your mind upon which stats you will give to your customized units.
If yours not already their, just let me know.

They are put in a relative order of strength.
You will discover that TD is the units which get the most variations stats HR about how to used it.

Thanks for sharing everybody.

1- SPA
A2D2M2C5 Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with tank
A2D2M2C5 Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with tank or with Mech Inf
A2D2M2C5 Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank, First Strike Salvo @2 Off/Def
A2D2M2C5 Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank, Get A3, 1st rnd if ennemy’s tank present.
A2D2M2C5 Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank, Attack A3 on 1st rnd A3D2M2C5 Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank.
A4D3M2C8 On a “1” roll, ennemy lost 1 non-infantry unit.

2- SPG / TD
A1D1M2C5, blitz with Tank, First Strike Salvo Off/Def each rnd on SPA or Tk. TD can be hit but not preemptive.
A1D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk, get +1A when paired with a Tank.
A2D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, Support 1 Infantry or 1 Mech +1D.
A2D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, on Def: a “1”&“2” rolled destroyed Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, on Def: a “1”&“2” rolled destroyed SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, on a “1” or “2” rolled destroyed 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, on a “1” on attack or “1” & “2” on defense rolled destroyed Tk first, then TD, then SPA, then MI, in that order.
A2D3M2C5, blitz with Tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 non Infantry unit.
A2D3M2C5, blitz with Tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 ground unit of your choice.
A2D3M2C5, can blitz, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D3M2C5, can blitz, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A3D1M2C5, blitz with Tank, give +1A/D to 1 light Tank A2D1M2C4.
A3D2M2C5, can blitz, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D2M2C6, blitz with Tank, on a “1”&“2” rolled destroyed Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D3M2C6, blitz with Tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D3M2C6, blitz with Tank, target directly 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A3D3M2C6, blitz with tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D2M2C6, blitz with Tank, +1A/D when enemy’s Tk present, on a hit destroy directly Tk.
A3D4M1C7, (Heavy TD) on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 SPA, TD or Tk.
A3D3M2C7, blitz with Tank, First Strike Salvo Off/Def each rnd on SPA or Tk. TD can be hit but not preemptive.
A4D3M2C7, blitz with tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.

3- Mechanized Artillery (Combining SPA, SPG, TD in 1 unit)
A2D2M2C5, Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank
A2D2M2C5, Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank, Attack A3 on 1st rnd, if enemy’s Tank present
A2D2M2C5, Support Infantry and Mech: Inf or MI get +1A when paired 1:1, or Support Tank get +1A/D when paired to a Tank 1:1, blitz when a Tank is present, don’t need to be paired with.
A2D1M2C5, Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank, on defense act as a preemptive AA on 1:1 against Tank.
A2D2M2C5, Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank or a Mech Inf, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech Art or Tk
A2D2M2C5, Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech Inf, Mech Art or Tk
A2D3M2C5, Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank
A3D3M2C6, Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank, act as a preemptive AA @1 against Tank

@crusaderiv:

For the german tank destroyer I choose the Elephant from CinC! (I love that beast)!!!
And SU 100 for the Russian.

I have seen this CinC referenced before. Is this a new gaming pieces company that I am unaware of?