Austrian Economics vs. Keynesian Economics in Axis and Allies

@Wilson2:

As for your flatscreen tv, getting the $1800 is not a good thing. Assuming you are middle class, you will likely have to pay more than that in taxes to pay for giving all those people $1800. Or it is just $1800 * (large fraction of population of US) more debt. That is $1800 of debt that is to be left for your grandchildren to take care of. Imagine telling your grandchild as he gets born, "You were about $10,000 dollars in debt (their portion of the national debt) but now because of this flatscreen, you owe an additional $1800; good luck.

First of all, I had nothing to do with the decision for the gov’t to pay out $1,800 to me.  So there is nothing for me to tell my grandchildren.

Second, did you notice I said an almost middle income family in the US pays ZERO FIT?  Anybody less than middle income is paying negative income tax - they’re collecting from the tax system, rather than paying in (started with Clinton administration, by the way - to whoever said he ran surpluses  :-))  I’ve been a tax accountant for the past 5 years, so I know this for absolute certainty.  It’s public policy like this that leads to major problems.  Why in the world is middle income America paying nearly no income tax?  Not to say they’re (we’re) not taxed!  Typical scenario - 5-6% State income tax, 1-2% FIT, 6% sales tax, 7.65% FICA tax, property tax, vehicle registrations, etc, etc, adds up to maybe 25-30% right there, plus taxes on various services (telecom, etc) we literally get nickel and dimed to death.  But FIT is not a significant part of it, meaning simply that most Americans contribute very little directly to the National Budget.  In fact, around half are taking more than they’re putting in.  So my point is - obviously that does not work.  And it’s not like us American voters are asking for this.  Like Func said, you have 2 choices (2 parties) and neither is really going to fix what’s broken, so we’re all pretty much SOL - because it’s impossible for our votes to change anything.

Wilson - that was some interesting stuff.

What is the total $$ value of US GDP and what is the national debt these days?  By the way, I’m not sure the correlation between those two figures is as strong as you might be suggesting……  As you acknowledged - the US debt has relationships with many other wealthy and powerful nations, so isn’t the same as Greece, or whatever…

Last I checked (but has been a few years), interest on the debt was maybe a third of the national budget.  Some of you brainiacs may disagree, but I think the USA can keep “throwing stuff under the bed” until it can’t make all the interest payments.  Seems to me that’s when it would come to a head…  As long as people buy US T-bills, well, it seems like the ride will continue.

Adults (like us now) were freaking out about the national debt 30 years ago.  It was small back then compared to now…  Not making a point - just throwing that out there…  But as you suggest, Wilson, to compare the national debt as a percentage of GDP (or the annual budget, or whatever other number that quantifies the size of the nation’s government or economy), then if (hypothetically) the USA’s GDP grows by a higher percentage than the national debt, on average, over several future years, than as the national debt actually grows in actual $$'s, it would be becoming less and less of a problem, right?  I mean, I remember thinking about it that way as well, in my college years…

Wow, you guys seem pretty knowledgable.

Everones complaing about our national debt, what if instead of worrying about it we just didnt pay the debt back. See what anybody says about it.

We got tons of nukes, tons of planes, a huge ass navy, marine corp, 82nd and 101st airborne, delta force, navy seals. What is anyone gonna do about it?

Honest question :wink:

@Emperor_Taiki:

Wow, you guys seem pretty knowledgable.

Everones complaing about our national debt, what if instead of worrying about it we just didnt pay the debt back. See what anybody says about it.

We got tons of nukes, tons of planes, a huge a** navy, marine corp, 82nd and 101st airborne, delta force, navy seals. What is anyone gonna do about it?

Honest question :wink:

I’ve wondered about this myself.  Seems you shouldn’t let someone borrow so much money from you if they can take you down.

This is why I never lent my older brother (5 years older than me) any money.  He had to take it from me - I wouldn’t willingly lend it, because if push came to shove, he wouldn’t really HAVE to pay it back at all!!  :lol:

And somebody was wondering on here why we spend so much on “defense”  :lol:  ROFL

Chromwell, have you watched Zeitgist?

@Cromwell_Dude:

….Supposing the statistics on what percentage of middle America pays in taxes is true (I don’t believe it to be true), it only proves Austrian Economics correct.

Oh, it’s true.  Hmm, let me dig out my own 2009 income tax returns.

2009 total income - $55,849
2009 total FIT - $651

I had no special or big deductions.  I did not even itemize.  I have a wife and 2 kids.  Effective FIT rate = 651 / 55,849 = 1.17%

Why would you say you “don’t believe it to be true” when you could gather facts and find what the truth actually is?  :?  Well, anyway - it’s true!  I prepared about 120 income tax returns per year for the last 5 years.  Middle America pays very little FIT.  Lower incomers take more from the government on their income tax return alone, than they put in (not their fault - the government made the rules).

2009 State taxes (Iowa) - $2,156
Effective State rate = 2,156 / 55,849 = 3.86%

So in 2008 when the Federal government sent us a stimulus check for $1,800, they were sending us 3 years worth of taxes.

I’m not making a point - just providing information, which actually backs up some of you guys’ points.  The fact is, middle (and certainly lower-income) America is paying next to nothing into the National Budget by way of income taxes.  This is a fairly big change from 20-40 years ago.  My thought is maybe politicians have figured out that giving tax breaks to the majority of voters gets you voted in and makes you more popular.

And just to prove the ignorance of many people - people clamor for an end to our income tax system and they think a national sales tax is a good idea.  No thank you.  I don’t want to trade my $651 a year in income taxes for a 15-20% added sales tax on everything I buy.  The top 5% of income earners in America pay roughly half of the total individual income taxes per year.  Pretty safe to assume where the national sales tax argument is coming from.  I guess many of the bottom 80-90% of earners who want federal tax reform are too ignorant and/or uneducated to realize that they are cheering for major tax breaks for the rich and major tax hikes for everyone else!  :-o  :-)

@Cromwell_Dude:

Regardless of how you feel about secession, federalism and the federal system died either in 1861 (the war) or 1867 (forcing states to ratify an amendment they rejected, oh yeah, only the Southern states that rejected it, not the Northern ones).   If that’s not good enough for you, then how about these two dates: 1913-the establishment of the Federal Reserve, or 1933-the creation of the Fascist and long-lasting New Deal, and the declaration of the still in effect Martial Law…not good enough, well, then how about 1947-the establishment of the Central Intelligence Agency-the creation of never ending declared wars and a government system needed to complete that war…Even the so-called conservative William F. Buckley described 1947 and the creation of the C.I.A. as a crackdown on civil liberties needed in America…yes, the so-called conservative William F. Buckley.   Did I mention he was a ‘one-time’ agent of the C.I.A.?   And subsequent presidents claimed (they can be trusted right) his magagine, The National Review, was a C.I.A. front…my point?   Just as much as people have been deceived into thinking we live under a ‘federal system,’ the same people believe the Federal Reserve is a ‘federal’ entity that protects us ‘dumb’ Americans.   Question: HAVE YOU EVER READ ABOUT WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED THE FEDERAL RESERVE ACT SAID ON RECORD ABOUT IT, ONCE IT PASSED CONGRESS???   You talk about primary sources!!!   The truth is right in front of people and they don’t even care.   What’s scarier, what they said about its true intent after it passed or us Americans who are too lazy to care?..If you think this is all intellectual bitter batter, how’s the economy, how’s the prices of goods and services, how’s the security of your job, how’s those never ending foreign wars going, how’s your civil liberties, if you died tonight would you feel safe leaving your children in this America?   Think a history lesson of the Federal Reserve System might be important?

And dont forget how Mossad was behind 9/11.(sarcastic)

I hear people make these same points and they seem pretty reasonable, but usually the next thing they say is somthing about 9/11 being done by the jews or the government. Or something about zionism.

Even Ron Paul pretty much admits he is a 9/11 troofer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88x6JdfjwCY&feature=related

I am not saying these arnt good points, I am just saying alot of people who also make these points are crazy.

and what do you mean marshal law is still in effect?

@calvinhobbesliker:

What’s PSOE and PP stand for(and English translations, please)

Yeah, the Lib Dems were key in the UK. However, what’s to prevent a 3rd party from taking bribes?

PSOE -> Partido Socialista Obrero Español (Socialist Workers Spanish Party, but there is not much socialist or workers in their politics lately)

PP -> Partido Popular (People’s Party). Right Wing party, but I don’t know why they put Popular in their name  :-P

You have reason, a 3rd party still can take bribes. The key is voting for a party that promises changing the election system to open lists and matemathic proportionality, changing the system. LDs in UK seem that are going to manage changing the system a bit … maybe we must do this step by step I guess

@Wilson2:

@calvinhobbesliker:

I have a question, wilson. Are you an anarchist?

You take from a post about helping the poor that I am an anarchist? Seriously?  :|

Maybe. There are 2 types of anarchists: anarch-sindicalists (left wing) and anarch-liberals (right wing). I think that we are approaching slowly to a anarch-liberal society without having much chance of changing it

yep too political here… locked