J-3 DOW on W.Allies. J-1 buy Poll

[Young Grasshopper]

@MeinHerr:

The Shanghai factory is a major ongoing investment….
Every turn , Japan invests $12 there from the very first turn… in Mechs…

Should USSR march the Siberian horde back to Moscow, would it not be better to “steal” the:
6 Inf+ 1Art from Manchuria–>Jehol
and the 4 Inf from Korea, and utilize the 6 Inf+2Art+tank in Japan and 1 Inf in IwoJima and 1 Inf in Okinawa
all added = 18 Inf + 3 Art+ Tank � ie => 11 TR Loads

Lets say , that we spare 4 Inf from Manchuria to keep going into Northern China… , that brings it to 9 TR loads.

Japan starts with 3 TRs… � On J1 - 2 TR loads are used

If buy is 2 more TRs in J1 , they use 2 more TR loads

if J2 buy is 4 TRs … , that is 4 more TR loads.

Leaving 3 TR loads remaining… that still have to be used. �

In reality , there are 5 TR loads remaining… ( i use the 2 Inf+ AAA from Carolines) , as well as the Palau Inf and Manchuria AAA also… � since the Carolines Inf usually die when the US comes in.

Yes, the Mechs are mobile…. and catch up with the front line troops…, but is the investment worth it? Esp when so many troops are staying unused.

Lets say for 4 turns Japan produces ( 12) Mechs… that is $12+ $48 = $60

This is 3 CV+ 2 Subs equivalent… that Japan loses out on.

To me, 3 TR buy is a better investment than an mIC… Unless the plan is to help Germany get Moscow… by invading USSR from the rear.

I don’t get a lot of this, I understand trying new things… but is the Mechs on Minors a broken strategy for Japan?

Land units for Japan exist and are purchased for many reasons like fighting Calcutta, China, and Russia. Land units don’t exist for the sole purpose of loading massive amounts of transports, there needs to be diverse spending in my opinion. Maintaining a transport fleet of 5, plus 2 factories in Shanghai and FIC is a great balance for all the objectives Japan needs to accomplish to be successful. I’ve never heard of an Allied counter that is forcing us to rethink factory and mech purchases for Japan. Sure we can add up all that money and describe an alternative purchase of units, but just because this amount of mechs and factories could buy us this amount of aircraft carriers and subs doesn’t mean we should. If the 5 transports get sunk for what ever reason, I want to be able to get land units on the mainland while I rebuild those transports, and I’m screwed if I don’t already have factories pumping out mechs. How would buying just transports instead of factories win the Axis the war?.. both factories and transports have value the other doesn’t.

[Hambone]

Factory for the reasons already mentioned and the transports to jump on all the $$ islands when its time.

[simon33]

Why 2TTs? What troops are you going to put on them J2? Japan has 3inf 2art 1arm removed J1 leaving 3inf 3aaa.

2TTs mean you’ll be relegated to shipping AAA to the mainland or picking up some inf from the islands unless I’m missing something.

[DCWhat]

@simon33:

Why 2TTs? What troops are you going to put on them J2? Japan has 3inf 2art 1arm removed J1 leaving 3inf 3aaa.

2TTs mean you’ll be relegated to shipping AAA to the mainland or picking up some inf from the islands unless I’m missing something.

The TT in SZ 6 picks up a Inf, Arm. The transport next to Manchuria picks up a Inf and Art from Manchuria. There is a third transport two sz’s away from Japan with no NB next to it. By my count there should still be two art left to go on turn 2.

[simon33]

Hmm, that’s not what I do. SZ19 TT picks up inf+arm from Japan and lands them on the 3IPC territory.

SZ20 TT lands two units on Korea.

Perhaps it doesn’t work very well???

[DCWhat]

I’ve never tried it that way before. I always try to send the TTs south even if it takes an extra turn. I might look into your way next game.

[simon33]

J2 the Arm can reach Kweichow where I like to be strong because you can threaten both Yunnan and Szechwan as well as Shensi and make it basically impossible for the Allies to hold the Burma Rd even with a UK2 DOW. Throw in the mech and air support and you are also threatening Sikang.

The units landed on Korea can be attacked USSR3 but that both nullifies the Mongolian rule and is not too difficult to counter attack even if positioning takes a turn.

[MeinHerr]

There are 2 main uses for the Tank in Japan

1. To drop it on Soviet Far East, alone. It chews through Soviet Territory pretty quick.
   Should Germany not buy anything but Land Units directed at Moscow on G1 and G2, the Soviets will have to pull everything back as quickly as possible.
     The Japanese tank gets 1,3,5,7 IPC in first 4 rounds = 16 IPC, that USSR will not have R5-R6 …makes Germany’s task a little easier.
   Of course, for Japan, it’s great to have the extra $$$, helps them toward the 60 IPC mark by J5.
   J6 onward, the Tank has produced income to fund a DD buy every turn!

2. Or… land the tank on HongKong/Kwangsi  J1…with Mech ,and 2-3 Inf, might just hold Yunnan against C2 attack.
   Sidenote- J1, if the AAA gun is brought down from Manchuria,  it being present on C2 counter, may make the Chinese player hesitate.

The factory in HongKong has to generally produce Mechs in order to be effective. The only time,  in my opinion this is a must is if Moscow/ Stalingrad is the main target of the Northern Japanese army.

Otherwise for a J3 -DOW, it’s a terrible waste of resources.

The advantage of J3 DOW, is that Japan can build TRs…and move them to foreward positions for the strike.
The sidebenefit is that there is time for redeployment of the InF sitting on Islands (5 Inf+ AAA) and Korea/Manchuria (10 Inf+Art+AAA)… total cost of 59 IPC.
Forgetting the AAA… just the 15 Inf+Art  = 8 TR loads… = 49 IPC.

To actually produce  these in factories as Mechs…costs 64 IPC, that can instead be used to buy Navy…negating the US $ advantage.

4 extra CVs (for $64) , with 4 FTR and 4 TB already present, puts a deadly strike force, and a formidable defense!

Now, if US has to match this, it has to not only buy CVs, it also has to BUY the 8 planes for $84 … !

A factory in French Indo on J4 and Malaya on J4 are probably more cost effective.
mIC in IC can produce cheap Inf on first turn, then Mechs on next turn, then Tanks on the turn after…when there is lots of money.

As long as the 7-8 TRs are kept secure, they present an amphibious threat to India…then to W. OZ.

J1 Buy  = 3 TR , save $5. Collect $41…total $46
J2 Buy = 2 CV + 2 TR    … Collect $46
J3 Buy = 2 CV+ DD+Sub

Battlefleet 1 - BB+ CV based in Malaya. 2 TRs
Battlefleet 2 - BB+ CV+DD+CRU  based in Java. TR
Battlefleet 3 - 2 CV+CRU+ DD based in PHP. 2 TR
Battlefleet 4 - Homefleet -  2 CV+DD+Sub
Battlefleet 5 - BB+CV +TR in Sumatra. TR

2 DDs are usually the blocker sacrifices in SZ45 and SZ55… in the larger interests oF the divided Battlefleets. This is only if Queensland is brimming with USN.

If Royal Navy has backed off India, following mega-Japanese Navy deployment in Malaya and Java on J2…then accordingly Malaya and Sumatra Battlefleet will be adjusted, depending on Queensland USN strength.

After this…the IJN will be concentrated in PHP and SZ6… or Malaya waters and PHP… depending on what Allies do.

But the impt point is that the TRs should mostly survive and concentrate in Malaya…on J4…so as to either hit India and Burma…or W.Oz …etc

If the mIC is built on J1… the J2 Navy  Buy cannot be made, Navy in PHP or Homewaters will be understrength…and the divided Battlefleet will be targets for Allied Navy at end of J3.

MeinHerr

[MeinHerr]

Correction…I meant J1 factory in Shanghai, not Hongkong.

[simon33]

@MeinHerr:

There are 2 main uses for the Tank in Japan

1. To drop it on Soviet Far East, alone. It chews through Soviet Territory pretty quick.
   Should Germany not buy anything but Land Units directed at Moscow on G1 and G2, the Soviets will have to pull everything back as quickly as possible.
     The Japanese tank gets 1,3,5,7 IPC in first 4 rounds = 16 IPC, that USSR will not have R5-R

At the cost of triggering the Mongolian rule J3.

[MeinHerr]

@simon33:

@MeinHerr:

There are 2 main uses for the Tank in Japan

1. To drop it on Soviet Far East, alone. It chews through Soviet Territory pretty quick.
   Should Germany not buy anything but Land Units directed at Moscow on G1 and G2, the Soviets will have to pull everything back as quickly as possible.
     The Japanese tank gets 1,3,5,7 IPC in first 4 rounds = 16 IPC, that USSR will not have R5-R

At the cost of triggering the Mongolian rule J3.

**  True. The Mongolian rule will be triggered on J3.  They start moving on R4.  Earliest they get to Moscow will be R7 (2 Inf) R8 (1 inf)…  The IPCs the Japanese gain each turn, is much more more significant than than the Mongolians impact on the game.**

If the Mongolians step out of Mongolia they get killed easy.
As far as gaining IPC… only the 1 Inf on UlanBataar gets 1 IPC for Soviets… everything else is Chinese or already Soviet.
By J3, China would have been pushed pretty far back.
The early IPCs help in Naval buy to swamp the Allied navy.

Unless Japan maintains its naval superiority over the combined Allied navy, it is done for.  This is most important in the  J4, J5  turn… as the US would have kicked into production on US3 only.
US4 moves US3 buy it to Hawaii…  Japan can handle the initial US NAvy and US builds, as long as it is matching it CV for CV.

Now it has to choose where to focus… Atlantic or Pacific…

If Japan gets 64+  IPC for more than 2 turns in a row (J4,J5,J6) … usually Allies will lose either in Pac  or Atlantic  (barring unforseen dice rolls).

The 64+ IPC is significant, because it means, the Naval+Air builds are so massive, and bring into operation 2 CVs+ 2DDs+2 Subs in a row for 2 turns… , which means… with the starting 3 CVS, and build of 4 more CVs in rounds 2 and 3  =>  3+2+2+2+2 (assume 1 CV is lost in operations) = 10 CVS…and with a single TB build… brings this massive force to bear on Allied Navy in  Hawaii… or Queensland… on J7…  ( India should have fall by J7… or will be on the brink of falling J8)…

Factory on mainland on J4  ( Indo-C  and Malaya), producing Inf, Mechs and Tanks (J5,J6,J7)… should take care of business in India, freeing the bulk of the Airforce to fill the Carrier Decks by J6-J7.

But iam sure other players have their methods/styles.  This might be new or hyper aggressive…  will be different with a US - KJF approach.

But again with a KJF…  putting a mIC on Shanghai on J1 is not a good idea.  Once committed, its too late.  3 TRs give the flexibility…

MeinHerr

(Only time this is not true, is if it sells out to help Germany take Moscow… and get an Axis win in the Euro-side)

[simon33]

Don’t the Mongolians stop the tank and claim back some of the territory it conquered?

[Omega1759]

I’m of the mindset that Japan should buy MICs when they can afford to do so. 3 transports is the way to go early in the game, it’s cost effective and leaves all options open since your navy is dominant.

[Tirano]

@Omega1759:

I’m of the mindset that Japan should buy MICs when they can afford to do so. 3 transports is the way to go early in the game, it’s cost effective and leaves all options open since your navy is dominant.

Can’t agree more. Doesn’t matter what DOW im doing either. It’s 3 Transports for me 1st turn. Only difference I ever have is if I buy an Art and save 1 or if I save 5.

[Maddog77]

I find that a MiC and 2 xports in J1 is my best strategy for my long term goals and plans. Then I purchase 3 tanks to place there on J2 & J3 to compliment the existing ground units in China. Usually, by start J3 I’ve pretty well cleaned China out and am ready to knock on India’s door, grab the DEI’ Phillipenes, Guam & Wake. J4 is kill India while setting up a J5 invasion of Australia. Of course this all depends on my opponents skill level and the dice gods being somewhat fair. That’s what makes this game so exciting in my book……the best laid plans…you all know the rest.  :wink:

[simon33]

I’m wondering about a naval base on Hainan to increase the effectiveness of one’s TTs. Done it once or twice and maybe should have kept doing it.

[Tirano]

@simon33:

I’m wondering about a naval base on Hainan to increase the effectiveness of one’s TTs. Done it once or twice and maybe should have kept doing it.
[/quote

It is perfect for the J3 India Crush ( Assuming No Blocker) and 3 TT buy R1 with a air force landing in Kwangsi following a J1 DOW

[Amalec]

I would argue strongly for a 3 TT buy Turn 1. This is informed by what I think Japan’s goals are:

1. Marginalise China by pushing them back and cutting the Burma road.
2. Control as many IPC as possible/deny as many to the Allies as possible
3. Take India
4. Take VP cities
   (Not necessarily in that order)

Option 1: a Turn 1 MIC buy:
Turn 2 spend 12IPC on 3 Mecs.
Turn 3 result: You’re at war with the Allies. You’ve got 3 Mecs ready in Kiangsu. They’re unlikely to be in range to attack even single unit Chinese holdings. It’ll be at least Turn 4 before they become useful in accomplishing any of Japan’s goals. Probably it’ll be Turn 5 when they can, potentially, apply pressure to India.

Option 2: a Turn 1 TT buy:
Turn 2 Spend the 5 IPC you saved on T1 and the 12IPC you saved on Mecs on 2 more TTs. First TT drops 2 units in Kwangsi.
Turn 3 result: 2 extra units and an extra TT in Kwangsi, you can attack Yunnan/Burma/Malaysia/Dutch Islands as necessary. 2 extra TTs in Japan who can threaten Russia/Hawaii or take the Philippines. 3 Extra TTs who can threaten a drop in India Turn 4, forcing the British to deploy (and lose) irreplaceable blockers or pull it’s forces all the way back into India.

Certainly, it’s not entirely black and white. And I’m being specific about extra TTs or units. Option 1 could still afford TTs on Turn 2 - but not as many. Option 2 can still afford MIC on Turn 2 - at the cost of something else. Generally speaking though, I think A&A is won by ensuring all of your choices get you further to your goals or give you options in the future. In my opinion, Option 2 supports that best. I also think Turn 4 is far too long for buys on Turn 1 and 2 to be useful, and that if I’m going to built MIC I’d rather have them in Kwangtung, French Indochina or Malaysia.

[WILD BILL]

I prefer to buy 3 transports on the first turn (gives me 6) if I attack J1, J2, or J3 (Japan needs lots of transports). If I make an early J1 or J2 attack then transports are gaining me income faster then units built in Asia.

If I’m waiting to attack on J3 I might use sz19 transport to grab units along the coast and invade Siberia or Sov Far East to start grabbing income from Russia (then re-position transport on J2 to be useful J3). The other 2 starting (loaded) tpts go to sz36 to bring units into Kwangsi as reinforcements/counter Yunnan. J2 fill up 3 transports purchased J1 and move south to invade money islands/Malaya next turn giving me 5 or 6 transports ready to go in sz36 depending on if I hit Russian coast. A J2 naval base is also an option to threaten India (if nothing else the allies might feed me a couple blockers to kill next turn). Will also buy 2-3 more tpts J2 to hit Phil and Kwangtung by sea from Japan to keep any units already in China moving inward.

In a J3 attack you need to take all the money islands, Phil, Kwangtung, Malaya, FIC and maybe even Dutch NG as fast as possible for your NO’s or to stop the Allies NO’s. Most of those targets require transports. If you are attacking on J3 then a couple of the islands may require more then 1-2 units because allies stacked up. Some of your transports will probably be exposed to allied attacks once you invade so having extra won’t hurt you.

Besides I would rather wait to build a mainland IC once I have FIC (or Malaya/Kwangtung) because mobile units built there are right in the action, and I will have more income to fill them after my attack. Plus sometimes you need to build naval units and those southern territories are much better launch points.

Just wondering if anyone that does a J3 attack forgoes the 10 IPC bonus and takes FIC on the first turn to drop an IC there J2?

And how that went?

[simon33]

@Tirano:

@simon33:

I’m wondering about a naval base on Hainan to increase the effectiveness of one’s TTs. Done it once or twice and maybe should have kept doing it.

It is perfect for the J3 India Crush ( Assuming No Blocker) and 3 TT buy R1 with a air force landing in Kwangsi following a J1 DOW

I don’t think you can assume no blocker. However, it does force the allies to put down a blocker which you can kill J3. Another one J4 quite likely - or you can move some of the fleet to SZ37 to prevent them putting a blocker there requiring the allies to put down two blockers.