G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions)


  • So if you went 1D6 +2 be TUV swing of 3 or 4 ICPs ?

  • '17 '16

    @SS:

    So if you went 1D6 +2 be TUV swing of 3 or 4 ICPs ?

    If you suppose most of SBR are against IC’s AAA only.
    If you play within combat values Bomber A0 C5.
    Using D6 damage (recommended ) avg TUV swing going to be 2.084 IPCs.
    Using D6+2 damage (OP) avg TUV swing will be 3.750 IPCs.
    (OOB G40 is actually 2.583 IPCs)

    SBR HRules with StB A0 C5 and Fg A1 D1 C10: damage 1D6 or 1D6+2

    1 Strategic Bomber doing SBR against no interceptor

    AAA roll = odds casualties

    5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs = +4.583 IPCs or (D6) 5/6*3.5= +2.917
    1/6 StB killed *5 IPCs = -0.833 IPCs

    D6: +2.917-0.833= +2.084 IPCs
    D6+2: + 4.583 - 0.833 = +3.750 IPCs damage/SBR

    Global40 SBR HRules : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, damage 1D6+2 / damage 1D6

    5/6 StB survived *3.5 IPCs = +2.917 IPCs

    5/6 StB survived *5.5 IPCs = +4.583 IPCs

    1/6 StB killed *5 IPCs = -0.833 IPCs
    1/6 StB killed *6 IPCs = -1 IPCs
    1/6 StB killed *8 IPCs = -1.333 IPCs

    Cost 5
    1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +2.917 - 0.833 = +2.084 IPCs damage/SBR
    1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +4.583 - 0.833 = +3.750 IPCs damage/SBR
    Cost 6
    1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +2.917 - 1 = +1.917 IPCs damage/SBR
    1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +4.583 - 1 = +3.583 IPCs damage/SBR
    Cost 8
    1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +2.917 - 1.333 = +1.584 IPCs damage/SBR
    1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +4.583 - 1.333 = +3.250 IPCs damage/SBR
    G40 BMode
    1D6+2: + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run



  • Thank You Baron.  :-D

  • '17 '16 '15

    Updated so Tacs can bomb factories and hit at 1 in air battle. Added Objectives tab.
    Open the zip and put the folder inside the downloaded maps folder which is inside your triplea folder.

    SBR Only
    https://www.sendspace.com/file/a8173i

    w/naval M3
    https://www.sendspace.com/file/zi1i53

    What version is 42.2 ? v4 ?

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Sweet! Good looking out dude

    1942.2 is v5

    It’s pretty bare bones, so hopefully not to difficult to mod
    :-D

  • '17 '16 '15

    here’s 42.2

    https://www.sendspace.com/file/30jr8m

    Delete your existing v5 zip in the downloaded maps folder inside triplea folder. This one has the original and the two mods.

    I didn’t see any intercepting. The xml has it listed. It didn’t work in the original either though, so don’t know whats up with that

    edit: fix bmbr price

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Cost for the strategic bomber is still showing at 12 ipcs instead of 5 ipcs. But otherwise looks pretty good.

    For this map intercept/escort is optional, so to check it out, you have to select the game option called “raids may be preceded by air battles.” Then you get a prompt asking you whether you want to bomb/escort or attack, anytime you fly into a territory with a factory. Same deal when planes enter one of your own factory territories, you’ll get a prompt to intercept or not.

    I like the name too ‘SBR only.’ I think it captures the spirit and justification for the change.
    Escorting raids into Germany is somewhat more challenging on this map, because UK is 3 moves from Germany. Has the effect that Allied fighter escorts need to take off from Carriers, or Norway, or Karelia etc. But it works, if you select the right game options.

    I’m excited to see cheap bombers hehe.

    Also like how we have both options so people can explore the SBR change with or without m3. Nice touch

  • '17 '16 '15

    Oops ! Totally spaced the price

    https://www.sendspace.com/file/30jr8m

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Genius!  :-D

    There will be no stopping the cheapo bombers from raining down fire and destruction now! haha  :-D
    I think it’s a pretty solid little tweak.

    Guess it’s time for me to starting messing around with this M3 madness, and see what I’ve gotten myself into lol.

    Thanks again man!

  • '17 '16

    @Baron:

    @barney:

    Sorry to spam out here but if you haven’t tried it, these bombers are a lot of fun. This is the closest I’ve seen a A&A game come to as far as representing SBR. Having them cheaper means you use them more. It’s no big deal if one gets shot down (except to the poor bastards in it), interceptors are protected, unless there are escorts, and the UK has been taking a heck of a lot more damage than usual :)

    I could see the US actually being able to bomb Germany to effect. I wonder if we should give minors, AB and NB max damage 8 ? Make bombers a little more powerful. I left Tacs with SBR ability. Was that desired ? Seems ok to me if it was.

    Anyway, give it a spin. Haven’t messed with naval M3 too much yet. Don’t want my brain to go into Fukushima mode : )

    Interesting feedback
    I believe TcBs C12 with SBR A1 D0 should allow bombing on IC too now. Since it is so a high cost compared to 5 IPCs, why make such a difference to limit against AB or NB?
    After all, StB C5 Dmg 6 now are 2.4 stronger than TcB C12 Dmg 6.
    Or, on  60 IPCs basis, 12 SBs gives 12 D6 compared to 5 TcBs giving 5 D6 damage.

    On damage, any Maxed out facilities is an incentive to repair.
    Better to maxing out more easily I believe.

    Any POV on giving TcB A4 D3 M4-6 C12, SBR A1 damage D6 access to bombing ICs or Factories?
    For me, it simplify things, less exceptional rules. No more distinction on SBR (IC or AB or NB) vs TcBR (AB or NB).
    It increase the possibility to use at full potential all bombers units available.
    That way, it is an incentive to more SBRs and dogfight. TcBs is not an optimized choice, for sure, but you have no special irregular inability to not throw TcBs in Air Raid.
    (12 SBs gives 12 D6 compared to 5 TcBs giving 5 D6 damage)
    For instance, I’m thinking of some Russian Ukrainian IC with no AB or NB.

    Of course, it gets A1 like other Fg escort, but it cost 12 IPCs now.
    And TcB will not be use as a fodder to protect StBs A0 C5. (YG often dislikes this feature of 11 IPCs TcBs.)
    The advantage of cheaper StB is that it is becoming the main cannon fodder in dogfight, as it always should be the prey of intercepting Fighters.
    In addition, TcB A1 can also be seen as attacking landing fields, which can explain why it still get A1 vs Fg D1.

    Is there any reason to forbid TcBs to attack IC?
    From a game POV I don’t see.
    From an historical POV? Stukas were not deploy against Stalingrad or London?

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    @Baron:

    Any POV on giving TcB A4 D3 M4-6 C12, SBR A1 damage D6 access to bombing ICs or Factories?

    For me, it simplify things, less exceptional rules. No more distinction on SBR (IC or AB or NB) vs TcBR (AB or NB).
    It increase the possibility to use at full potential all bombers units available.
    That way, it is an incentive to more SBRs and dogfight. TcBs is not an optimized choice, for sure, but you have no special irregular inability to not throw TcBs in Air Raid.
    (12 SBs gives 12 D6 compared to 5 TcBs giving 5 D6 damage)
    For instance, I’m thinking of some Russian Ukrainian IC with no AB or NB.

    Of course, it gets A1 like other Fg escort, but it cost 12 IPCs now.
    And TcB will not be use as a fodder to protect StBs A0 C5. (YG often dislikes this feature of 11 IPCs TcBs.)
    The advantage of cheaper StB is that it is becoming the main cannon fodder in dogfight, as it always should be the prey of intercepting Fighters.
    In addition, TcB A1 can also be seen as attacking landing fields, which can explain why it still get A1 vs Fg D1.

    Is there any reason to forbid TcBs to attack IC?
    From a game POV I don’t see.
    From an historical POV? Stukas were not deploy against Stalingrad or London?

    From a historical standpoint, what Axis and Allies calls tactical bombers didn’t typically make large scale attacks on cities and production facilities (which is represented in game as ‘Strategic Bombing’). Couple reasons being that tactical bomber/medium bomber aircraft didn’t have the payload capacity to effect a sufficient amount of damage (and thus would have required an inefficient and impractical number of aircraft) and also that they didn’t have the range for such attacks.

    There are minor exceptions, such as the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo and the Germans using tactical bombers (fighter bombers - i.e. Stuka - and other medium bombers) to attack Eastern Front cities like Stalingrad. There are caveats with those instances too. The Doolittle Raid wasn’t intended to inflict large scale damage; it was a super long range strike against military targets in Tokyo intended to send a political message. This wouldn’t be an example of what the game calls strategic bombing. The German examples are also poor in that: the Germans didn’t really have a large strategic bomber fleet and the urban bombing they conducted tended to be coupled with a ground offensive aimed at destroying military targets, rather than a long distance strike on industry.

    All that said, I don’t see why it would be necessary to give Tacs at Strategic Bombing ability. I think it muddles the roles even more because even though it would be simpler to remember that both Tacs and StratBs can bomb the same stuff, it brings up the question of why two units can do the exact same thing, except the StratB now can’t attack regular units… and why even buy Strategic Bombers then? There are reasons, but the amount of unit crossover ability (with the Tac having the better abilities) will give rise to in-game questioning.

    Obviously their attributes are slightly different, but consider this:

    Under San Francisco Rules (with Air Base +2 move), a Tactical Bomber has a move of 6. That is one space less than a (non SF Rules - OOB) StratB from an Air Base. Under SF Rules, a TacB cost 12… same as non-SF Rules StratB. From a very basic, net-value view, what we have done is keep the OOB Strategic Bomber, downgrade its movement by one space and increase its defense from @1 to @3. Oh, and it can also now land on carriers, which in certain cases, gives it effectively a move 7.

    We have not changed the physical map or base income or altered budgeted spending (TacB is filling the 12 IPC spot vacated by the OOB StratB). If we are most concerned about Dark Skies threat projection, the only things SF Rules do at this point (on a net scale) is take one move away from the StratB unit and also remove industrial bombing ability (plus adding the attributes mentioned above). Does this seem a sufficient fix to curb the Dark Skies implementation? Simply put, I fear we may have done little to limit Dark Skies and perhaps done more to enhance it. That will definitely be true if we give a strategic bombing ability to the SF Rules Tac… at least with a 1-D6 roll.

    The crossover ability between Tacs and StratBs would make the StratBs less relevant and unique, thus de-incentivising purchase of them, even if slightly. Tac strategic bombing with A1 and 1-D6 is also better than and equal to a StratB, which should not be the case. IF this were to be pushed, I would say Tacs should roll 1-D6 modified to either half the roll rounded up (EDIT: or maybe even rounded down) or 1-D6 (-2)… this would put them on far inferior standing to a full StratB and reflects the fact that they are much smaller aircraft with fewer bombs. That should also dis-incentivise their use for strategic bombing considerably.

  • '17 '16

    Interesting reply Hoffman.
    Just a small correction, TcB on Carrier is like having a 5 move from land.
    It reaches 6 Move only from AB. And OOB StB damage is D6+2, not D6.
    So new TcB is 1move less from AB, 2 damage points less on bases.

    I don’t think it would be relevant to cut in half bombing damage.
    The scale of 240% more effective with 8 move range to use StBs 5 IPCs than TcBs 12 IPCs for bombing seems talking by itself.

    But your point about fuzzing 2 units seems valid and need to be considered.

    I will read a few times your post.
    Streamlining things is always appealing but it can be going to far.
    Thanks.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    I’m going to agree with LHoffman on this one. I don’t particularly like the idea of Tactical Bombers doing SBR on factories.

    I’m also not entirely convinced that it is strictly necessary for us to modify the OOB tac bombers at all. I first suggested it for combat simplicity (because I think combined arms can be a little confusing with that unit and I like the parity of inf to air at a cost of 12) but I also kind of like the idea of a SBR rule that is very simple to implement independently.

    Meaning a rule with a minimum amount of new information that players have to hold in mind. At this point, the simplest would be a 1 line change for 1942.2 and 2 line rules change for G40.

    *Strategic Bomber A0/D0/M6/C5 SBR 1d6 (no hitpoint in normal combat.)

    *Air Base +2 movement for all aircraft.

    Followed perhaps by an intercept/escort recommendation or alteration depending on whether you are playing 1942.2 or G40.

    To the dark skies point, I’m not sure that getting rid of that approach entirely needs to be the goal. Just weakening it somewhat might be sufficient, making sure that when it is employed that the unit compositions involved make a bit more historical sense, and that the overall effect of the strategy is somewhat narrower in focus.

    Part of the OP nature of the dark skies approach, is that the OOB Strategic Bomber can threaten to do so much at once. In the OOB situation, a stratB from an AB gives a +7 range Air Umbrella at hit 4. It can also can open at this distance and then return at a similar range of +6 the next turn, even if the territory where it lands doesn’t have an AB (like some out of the way territory on the Eastern Front, or Africa etc.) It can be used to throw back an amphibious invasion after the enemy units make landfall at hit 4. It can be used as defensive fodder (or rush defensive fodder to an ally). And on top of all that it can Bomb factories. This just seems a bit much for a single unit, and especially one called “Strategic Bomber.”

    I don’t want the TacB to simply step into the OOB Strat B role, and thereby make the Strategic Bomber unit redundant.  I want tactical bombers to be used in ways which make sense for a tactical bomber, and strategic bombers to be used in ways that make sense for a strategic bomber. And to the extent possible, to force a pretty strict division between the two.

    Not to make barney work overtime. But it might be advisable to have a version for testing which doesn’t alter the TacB at all from OOB. To see whether we can accomplish what we want using just the strat bomber and air base tweaks.

    I think this would address L.Hoffman’s dark skies concern. While still giving us the option to return to the TacB in the future, to consider alternative ways that unit might be tweaked if desired. Granted this means players still have to use combined arms for TacBs to achieve the hit 4, but G40 players are already used to this, so I don’t see it as a major issue right now. Baby steps might be better at this point.

    What do you think Barney? Any chance we could get a map file that leaves the TacB with its OOB abilities and cost, and only changes the Strategic Bomber and Airbase units?

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    @Baron:

    Interesting reply Hoffman.
    Just a small correction, TcB on Carrier is like having a 5 move from land.
    It reaches 6 Move only from AB. And OOB StB damage is D6+2, not D6.
    So new TcB is 1move less from AB, 2 damage points less on bases.

    I don’t think it would be relevant to cut in half bombing damage.
    The scale of 240% more effective with 8 move range to use StBs 5 IPCs than TcBs 12 IPCs for bombing seems talking by itself.

    But your point about fuzzing 2 units seems valid and need to be considered.

    I will read a few times your post.
    Streamlining things is always appealing but it can be going to far.
    Thanks.

    No prob, Baron. It was a lot to say all at once.

    Was the Strat Bomber 1D6 +2 added in G40.2? I must have missed that entirely. Been a good while since I have played G40 and have only played 2nd Ed a handful of times.

    Quick reply regarding the movement… what I meant by SF Rule Tacs having essentially 7 moves would be in the case that they take off from an Air Base but land on a carrier. This would be an equivalent range to OOB Strat Bomber in that, the Strat B would make the seventh move to get back to land, while the Tac B would not have to make that seventh move if landing on a carrier - thus giving the two units effectively the same range.

    My point was just that the dynamic aspect of the carrier combined with a semi-standard move of 6 could allow for an even further extended air bomber (@4) umbrella using Tacs… beyond what Dark Skies could achieve with just Strat Bombers.

    Granted, you would need to have enough carriers and enough in position to make that extended range a true threat, but nevertheless. That is not so much a comment on the revised role of the Tac, but more on making Air Bases +2 instead of +1.

    Don’t get me wrong, its not that I don’t like the idea. I am just trying to poke any holes in it now so we can deal with them before it gets to a gameplay stage, if at all possible.

    My two cents.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Lhoffman, how do you feel about just leaving the Tactical Bomber OOB?

    If we did that, then there is no question about the HR reducing the dark skies appeal, even with the AB +2, because you would need the fighter+tacB combined arms for the TacB to hit 4.

    I think it might be simpler for now, not biting off more than we can chew. Puts the emphasis on simply getting a proper implementation for Strategic Bombers and SBR escort/intercept in this game.

    We can return to ideas like M3 ships or TacB targeting later, without wedding those at the hip to our proposed Strategic Bomber/AB adjustments.

  • '17 '16

    @LHoffman:

    @Baron:

    Interesting reply Hoffman.
    Just a small correction, TcB on Carrier is like having a 5 move from land.
    It reaches 6 Move only from AB. And OOB StB damage is D6+2, not D6.
    So new TcB is 1move less from AB, 2 damage points less on bases.

    I don’t think it would be relevant to cut in half bombing damage.
    The scale of 240% more effective with 8 move range to use StBs 5 IPCs than TcBs 12 IPCs for bombing seems talking by itself.

    But your point about fuzzing 2 units seems valid and need to be considered.

    I will read a few times your post.
    Streamlining things is always appealing but it can be going to far.
    Thanks.

    No prob, Baron. It was a lot to say all at once.

    Was the Strat Bomber 1D6 +2 added in G40.2? I must have missed that entirely. Been a good while since I have played G40 and have only played 2nd Ed a handful of times.
    **Quick reply regarding the movement… what I meant by SF Rule Tacs having essentially 7 moves would be in the case that they take off from an Air Base but land on a carrier. This would be an equivalent range to OOB Strat Bomber in that, the Strat B would make the seventh move to get back to land, while the Tac B would not have to make that seventh move if landing on a carrier - thus giving the two units effectively the same range.

    My point was just that the dynamic aspect of the carrier combined with a semi-standard move of 6 could allow for an even further extended air bomber (@4) umbrella using Tacs… beyond what Dark Skies could achieve with just Strat Bombers.**

    Granted, you would need to have enough carriers and enough in position to make that extended range a true threat, but nevertheless. That is not so much a comment on the revised role of the Tac, but more on making Air Bases +2 instead of +1.

    Don’t get me wrong, its not that I don’t like the idea. I am just trying to poke any holes in it now so we can deal with them before it gets to a gameplay stage, if at all possible.

    My two cents.

    Makes sense too.
    The +2Move from AB twist aircrafts thing a bit.
    Moving from AB to AB, TcB is like an OOB StB with more defense and less damage (even some HR, like YG, reduce to D6 anyway if not starting from AB).

    Also, both Fg and TcB can follow each other when starting from same AB.
    Even TcB A3-4 D3 M4-6 C11, +1A with Fg or Tank is acting like an OOB StB with no AB.

    Considering AB bonus, which also increase Fg attractiveness, long range naval combat might not make 11 IPCs TcBs such an interesting buy. And  keeping combined arms is an incentive for Fgs dominance.

    TcB A4 D3 C12, D6 damage solve the attractiveness issue vs Fg.
    But not the mobility issue of Fg.
    But not the increase impact on Dark Sky with Fgs Strategy, with 6 moves.
    Fg A3 D4 M4-6 is just 1 attack point less but 3 defense point more compared to OOB StBomber.

    This fact puzzled me. Does Fg needs to increase cost to 12? 10 is a well rounded number, but…

    This point bother me.

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    @Black_Elk:

    Lhoffman, how do you feel about just leaving the Tactical Bomber OOB?

    If we did that, then there is no question about the HR reducing the dark skies appeal, even with the AB +2, because you would need the fighter+tacB combined arms for the TacB to hit 4.

    I think it might be simpler for now, not biting off more than we can chew. Puts the emphasis on simply getting a proper implementation for Strategic Bombers and SBR escort/intercept in this game.

    We can return to ideas like M3 ships or TacB targeting later, without wedding those at the hip to our proposed Strategic Bomber/AB adjustments.

    I mean, that makes sense to me. Again, I am not opposed to a Tac being standard A4, as long as it works.

    In the interim, I don’t think you will lose anything by keeping Tacs OOB, probably in both Attack and Cost. It should make the process a bit more scientific in that we are not manipulating more than a couple variables at one time.

    @Baron:

    Makes sense too.
    The +2Move from AB twist aircrafts thing a bit.
    Moving from AB to AB, TcB is like an OOB StB with more defense and less damage (even some HR, like YG, reduce to D6 anyway if not starting from AB.

    Also, both Fg and TcB can follow each other when starting from same AB.
    Even TcB A3-4 D3 M4-6 C11, +1A with Fg or Tank is acting like an OOB StB with no AB.

    Considering AB bonus, which also increase Fg attractiveness, long range naval combat might not make 11 TcBs such an interesting buy. And  keeping combined arms is an incentive for Fgs dominance.

    A4 D3 C12 solve the attractiveness issue vs Fg.
    But not the mobility issue of Fg.
    But not the increase impact on Dark Sky with Fgs Strategy, with 6 moves.
    Fg A3 D4 M4-6 is just 1 attack point less but 3 defense point more compared to OOB StBomber.

    This fact puzzled me. Does Fg needs to increase cost to 12? 10 is a well rounded number, but…

    This point bother me.

    :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Same man! I can sense the frustration. Adjusting these rules is a fine art and science. That’s what makes it hard. If it was just strategy or just mathematics it might be easier, but we have to deal with both.

  • '17 '16

    All I meant is that the issue you got with 12 IPCs TcBs mobility is more problematic with 10 IPCs Fg.
    Even 7 moves apply to Fg landing on aircraft.

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    @Baron:

    All I meant is that the issue you got with 12 IPCs TcBs mobility is more problematic with 10 IPCs Fg.
    Even 7 moves apply to Fg landing on aircraft.

    As in you think the fighter is worth more now that it has M6 (kinda M7)? It’s price should better match the Tac?

    I have been so accustomed to Fighters being 10 IPCs across all revisions of A&A that bumping its cost seems taboo to me. Even 11 IPCs for a fighter would be really annoying. 12 just feels like it would be a waste to buy one. I don’t know… maybe it is just a psychological problem, but it is one that I think a lot of people would have.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Personally I don’t have the same issue with a fighter based air umbrella strategy vs fleets under AB+2, that I do with an OOB Strategic Bomber proper “dark skies” strategy.

    The strategic situation with fighters and AB+2 is sufficiently different from the OOB dark skies with OOB Bombers, that I don’t think you could really call it the same thing.

    Fighters by themselves only offer an attack 3 on the water.

    Fighters without an AB+2, don’t have anywhere near the same mobility over multiple turns, when compared against the OOB stratB. For example, fighters parked in W. Germany cannot reach Moscow in one move for an attack (even with the AB+2). They are 1 move shy of a landing spot. Even if they were close enough to fly across the continent to attack Moscow and land in an adjacent space, they won’t be able to immediatrly return to W. Germany the following round (because without the AB they only have 4 movement.)

    Fighters can’t bomb factories.

    Whether the OOB tacB is an attractive purchase vs the OOB fighter (either under normal or the new AB+2 conditions) is a somewhat separate issue. Suffice it to say I think players would balk at a cost increase for fighter units. The fighter is so central and so familiar, that I’d be very reluctant proposing changes to it, for fear that this new SBR only rule would never get up off the ground.

    I think there is a general concensus that the OOB strat bomber is overpowered. Meaning a change to that unit has at least some chance of being widely acceptable.

    I think there is also a general feeling that an odd number for aircraft movement creates a degree of complexity and weirdness in counting. And also that the OOB Airbase +1 doesn’t do a whole lot for islands (either from an SBR or combat perspective). So again I think there is at least some chance of AB+2 being widely acceptable.

    I say we should start there, and see what we’re looking at.

    After we have a solid footing for SBR and escort, we can move to more nuanced problems… Such as the general unattractiveness of TacBs as a purchase option. We face a similar issue with cruisers, battleships, and aaaguns. But again, I think it might better to pace ourselves here. I’m still just hoping the “SBR only” Strategic Bomber can take off, instead of getting strafed out of existence, while still fueling up on the runway lol.
    :-D

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