Allies (general) strategy with a 14 (6 with some good luck) IPC bid.

[LittleShea]

Ok so like most have been struggling to compete using Allies but I think I may have cracked it. I had played 3 games as Allies against an inexperienced player, however I would help coach strategies in order to make a game of it. I just could never land US or UK troops before Moscow fell. The Japs were unstoppable. In one game he came up with Operation Sea Lion by himself, getting me by surprise (as not used to not being able to put unlimited troops in capital cities) and if it matters is an accomplished Poker player so does have the necessary intellect skills to compete.

Now down 3-0 and willing to prove a point how difficult it is to play allies vs the linear approach of being Axis (he has started to rib me how great a player he is),he plays allies and I crush him. I then gave him 14 IPCs to play Allies. Again he had no idea how to think ahead and the transition from playing Axis well (you can not really play Axis badly) to the coordinated approach to playing Allies completely failed him. I crushed him just playing Axis in a standard push forward way. However he did take the sub in india and destroyed the fleet in sz37 and we also inadvertently discovered the aussie transporter could legally move 3 spaces back to india if he chose to withdraw the amph assault. He chose to carry on, destroyed the ��� fleet but was disappointed when I told him he now had to land the aussies in to E.India and they were beaten back on the beaches. He didn’t bring the transport from India. I took note.

This is now my strategy for playing Allies with 14 IPCs. Please pick holes in it.

With 14 IPCs UK buys two artillery with one going in to Egypt and the other to India. The idea here is that in Egypt after R1 with the Persian Soldier I will have a 2artillery/2 inf combination. I think Egypt is too strong for Germany to take now in the 1st turn. Intention is to fly Russian fighter there too.

The remaining 6 IPCs is spent on a sub in India…with the idea on using it to destroy ��� fleet in SZ37

Russian R1.

Purchase 6 men and one tank (just to keep attacking options open)

After some consideration the odds are just not favourable to strafe Ukraine. It is tempting to take out the German fleet in SZ5 with the two fighters but Russia needs those fighters for defence later on and can not afford to lose. I also weigh up taking Baltic states but then there would be no defence in Karelia to protect the returning Fighter. My main strategy is to hold the line and create a dead zone in WR.

I elect to send everything minus one fighter to West Russia. Once taken I can then counterattack any movement in to Karelia or Caucasus. My goal is to hold the line and prevent Caucasus being taken. Once G can start pumping out inf there instead of walking from Berlin Russia falls sooner. If he takes Karelia I am ok with him holding it, better that than Caucasus.

The spare fighter flies to Egypt and is now impregnable (as the extra UK artillery is there now too).

R1 G - Germany makes predictable moves does what it does but the strategy for Russia stays the same throughout. Hold the line until the US and UK arrive.

R1 UK Purchase 3 subs for India. Apart from the ��� fleet in SZ37 there is no ��� fleet (and more importantly no destroyer) within two spaces. This will allow me in round two to hit any fleet in range with 3@2 that will no doubt delay Japs advance. If UK is to buy subs it has to be now as future rounds they will be within 2 spaces of destroyers and airforce - and subs don like defending as soon as they are produced!) When I do attack and if destroyers are removed we will have surprise attacks enabled. The japs will take a long time to recover (that is the idea!)

R1 Combat movement. With the Australian fleet in SZ39 and SZ35 we hit 37. UK has an extra sub (From the 14IPC bid). We also use the fighter from Egypt. We also declare an amphibious assault (two transporters, 3 Inf, 1art to take E.India). This is when we use the extra artillery bought as part of the 14 extra IPCs. Depending on how the battle goes in round one we can either withdraw everything to India (Aus transport makes a legal 3-space move) or we do an amphib assault w 3 inf and 1 art against 2 inf. I am thinking I will not proceed and if the ��� fleet still lives on first round of combat will withdraw back to india and take E.Indies on subsequent Turn when the ��� fighters leave (as ��� aircraft carrier will be dead)

If things go badly we now have just placed 3 subs in to sz35 and can submerge if Japs counterattack or use as fodder as the two fighters on the Aircraft carrier defend. If things go well we now have 3-5 subs to harangue the remaining ��� fleet.

So in case you have missed it UK has saved 13 IPCs and next time has an income of 44 IPCs (maybe more if E.Indies falls)

Japan goes - but strategy for UK remains unchanged - delay Japan for as long as possible.

US buys 4 fighters. In their non-combat phase move all current fighters that can, fly to Eastern Canada.

US and UK during their combat phases eliminate German subs. Not a concern if other surface ships are alive as you will see.

Assuming the German subs are gone, come the UK turn UK buys 3 aircraft carriers. Since G has now had their turn on the US turn US land 6 fighters on the 3 uk Aircraft carriers. If german subs are a threat then buy 1-2 destroyers and then the planes can defend against he subs.

So here we go … at the end of the 2nd turn there is an impregnable Navy fleet of 6 rolls @ 4, 3@2. Subsequent turns US and UK can now safely begin the transport purchase with the intention on turn 4 UK are landing troops anywhere they wish to. Not to mention the US fleet is on its way over too.

Some holes here are that I haven’t produced any land units in India for 2 turns but am hoping that the UK subs will do their job. It is a trade off on buying 1 fighter, art and inf in India (and still intending on doing the 3 aircraft carrier purchase) but I figure that the 3 subs will do just as good a job at holding the japs back if not longer as we can eliminate the bombardment threat and Japs need a fleet to advance fast.

US does standard move of bringing everything over from Pac to Atlantic. if the fleet in SZ11 � goes down first round then so be it.

Things may need to be adjusted depending on dice rolls and Germany and ��� strategies but this the general idea. UK hold back Japs and from turn 4 UK and US are offloading troops every turn in to Europe. At some point when the US fleet has arrived the 6 fighters can be sent to Russia to defend the motherland.

This could also be done with a 6 IPC bid with the sub in India. But I am so sick of losing (we both are…he wants to see an Allied strategy that works too), I need to be sure and have taken the 14. Allies needs to win before trying 6 IPC approach.

Anything over 14 IPCs is too much now in the Allies favour.

Thoughts?

[MarineIguana]

I think you’re generally on the right track. I’ve played at least 400 games of Revised and 50 games of 1942 2nd edition, against many top players.

• Bidding and buying in the Indian ocean does not substantially delay Japan’s deployment in Asia. I strongly believe that UK should buy 3 land in india and 2 fig in UK. Fighters go UK->Wrus->India. This maximizes India defense against land and threatens navy. By round 5-8 12+ fighters in india is tough for Japan to handle.

The problem with buying subs instead of land in india is that Japan can safely land in Yunnan and walk into India. A good Japan player is not going to put the navy in a position to be threatened by UK subs. The worst case scenario is that japan buys the necessary naval defense and lands in Manchuria that round.

• Bidding 1 infantry to egypt makes it safe from R1 german landing. Germany has few options to keep the med fleet alive. Most intermediate players will expose their med fleet to get sunk by 2 fig and 1 bomber. A strong German counter move is to purchase 1 carrier, attack UK cruiser with battleship + fig, land 1 inf in gibralter, attack sz15 destroyer with 2 air and end with 2 fig and 1 carrier off italy. The best allied response to this German opening is to hold egypt and land morocco R3.

• The key with Russia is to prevent germany from producing in Karelia. This is best done by stacking Wrus, purchasing something like 6 inf/1art every round, and trading Wrus. With optimal play from both Germany and Russia, Moscow should never fall before round 8 with zero support from UK and US. With UK/US pressure, Moscow can hold indefinitely. If you’re losing Moscow before round 8-10, it’s because 1. Russia actively trades with Germany but Germany has more air to efficiently trade profitably 2. Russia leaves its troops in a bad position that germany can attack at a profit. 3. Russia allows germany to produce in Karelia before round 5.

• A common mistake with intermediate players is wasting forces trading territories against someone with a larger airforce. The general order from most to least profitable: 1. attacking and stacking the territory, 2. attacking with 1 inf/many figthers, 3. attack retreat, 4. attacking with 2 inf/1fig. Intermediate players don’t take advantage of stacking a territory or attack retreat. For example, a russian player attacking 1 germany inf in belorussia with 2 inf/1fig. Even when Russia captures Belo, germany can counter with 1 inf and 4 fighters to recapture belo (if you do the math, it’s more profitable to trade with 1 inf and overwhelming air than 2 inf unless the territory value is >4).

• Your atlantic moves are on the right track, but you only need 2 carriers unless germany buys more fighters. If Germany plays suboptimally and buys more than 2 new fighters, UK or US can buy 1 extra fighter.
  UK: R1 2 art/1inf/2fig, R2 2inf/1art/2fig, R3 3 inf/2fig, R4 3 inf/2fig … continue until india falls.
  US: R1 2 dest/2bomb, R2 2 carrier/trans/land R3 trans/land

Expected optimal deployment is R3 morocco, R4 europe (mostly trading france and Northwest europe)
The reason for these purchases are to defend India and allow for allies to start trading in Europe starting Round 4.

• Short of going full Kill Japan First, the best way to slow Japan is to hold India. Japan would ideally like to land maximum land units and pressure Russia. Since fighters project pressure on both land and sea, a large stack of fighters can force Japan to buy unwanted navy. Making Japan buy an extra carrier is nearly the same as killing 2 inf and 2 art (14 IPC).

I know I brought up a lot of topics and may have used terminology that’s not familiar. Let me know if you have any questions. Good luck! : )

[LittleShea]

Hi thanks for the prompt reply…the game has not started … I have just been staring at the board for 6 hours trying to work smth out. Firstly just so I understand correctly, can a fighter fly to SZ17 and land on an Aircraft Carrier that has just been produced in Italy? Or I might misunderstand the German attack phase on the Destroyer?

[MarineIguana]

Yes, fighters are placed in the sea zone over where the carrier will be placed. This is different from Revised where the fighters are placed on the land (italy) adjacent to the sea zone.

[LittleShea]

Ok what I really need to know, is the “correct” way to play Russia in the first turn?

[MarineIguana]

Without any russia bid:
buy 4 inf, 3 art
1 inf/1 art/ 1fig Baltic states
All other land into Wrus
All eastern russia land moves west. leave nothing in bury
sub to sz7
remove cauc AA and place everything in Rus

Result: West russia is stacked, karelia is deadzoned, russia preserves units

My preference if you can get 12 bid. with 11 bid, replace art going to cauc with inf:
bid 3 art in cauc, rus, kar.
3 inf/2art/2tank/2fig ukraine
3 inf/2art belo
6 inf/2 tank/2art wrus
All eastern russia land moves west. leave nothing in bury
sub to sz7
place 4 units in cauc, rest in russia

Result: more aggressive. Karelia is deadzoned, west russia stacked

[LittleShea]

Cheers mate, I love the game and in some ways disappointed I haven’t worked this all out myself…maybe in another 396 games eh? I played professionally as a poker player for a bit before making it a serious hobby on the side. Ever need any tips on that front, feel free to email me on sheameehan@hotmail.com.

[guni-kid]

Keeping Moscow Soviet until round eight might be possible, even wihout ANY help from the Allies (which should start coming over the Atlantic by round four-five latest), but keeping the German from producing in Karelia until round five is basically impossible, if the German goes purchasing full land (mostly tanks and fighters) beginning G1. An example:

Soviet turn 1 takes West-Russia and Baltic States, stacking the first with almost everything available.

German turn 1 could bring up to 7 Inf and 3 tanks to Karelia (using the transport in the Baltic Sea), also taking Baltic States back and keeping his fighters close for defense. Then what? If the Soviet takes Karelia back wih the West-Russian stack and Caucasus with Soviet turn 1 purchase units, Caucasus is quite weakly stacked and Karelia in a heavy German deadzone… So whats left from the attack on the Soviet side is taken by G2: 5-6 tanks, 3-4 Inf, up to 8 figters… And that’s it with the Soviet stack and keeping Germany out of Karelia… So to be honest, I would consider opening up a south front with that Soviet stakc against a weakly defended Ukraine then… Or other stuff, but keeping Germany out of Karelia at all costs is taking the valuable Soviet units down too quickly… Why not taking Karelia back with the Allies, landing in Scandinavia turn 4-5 and attacking the German from round 5-6 on…

[MarineIguana]

@guni-kid:

Keeping Moscow Soviet until round eight might be possible, even wihout ANY help from the Allies (which should start coming over the Atlantic by round four-five latest), but keeping the German from producing in Karelia until round five is basically impossible, if the German goes purchasing full land (mostly tanks and fighters) beginning G1. An example:

I largely agree. Russia will be unable to deadzone karelia by around round 5. Germany produces 13 compared to Russia ~7-8.
I want to note it’s counter intuitive, but infantry are actually much stronger than tanks and fighters for offensive pressure. The reason is that with tank and fighter purchases, the stack doesn’t have the defensive power to move adjacent to the opponent’s stack.

@guni-kid:

Soviet turn 1 takes West-Russia and Baltic States, stacking the first with almost everything available.

Agreed

@guni-kid:

German turn 1 could bring up to 7 Inf and 3 tanks to Karelia (using the transport in the Baltic Sea), also taking Baltic States back and keeping his fighters close for defense. Then what? If the Soviet takes Karelia back wih the West-Russian stack and Caucasus with Soviet turn 1 purchase units, Caucasus is quite weakly stacked and Karelia in a heavy German deadzone… So whats left from the attack on the Soviet side is taken by G2: 5-6 tanks, 3-4 Inf, up to 8 figters… And that’s it with the Soviet stack and keeping Germany out of Karelia…

Trading heavily as you’re describing is decisively unfavorable for Russia. For the reason that 1. UK/USA can’t support until round 4 and 2. germany produces 13 vs 7-8 of Russia.

End of Russia R1, zero bid, attacking Baltic with 1inf/1art/1fig and stacking Wrus:
Wrus 9 inf/2art/4tank
Arch: 2 inf
Baltic states: 0 units or 1 art
Russia: 2 inf/2 fig/+purchases

If germany stacks Karelia R1 with 7 inf/3tanks counter stack karelia with 11 inf/2art/4tank/2fig. Attack-retreat for 1 round with expected outcome of 6 germany inf lost and 4 Russia inf lost. Russia has an even better trade if Russia gains an extra 1-2 artillery in the initial bid. If low luck, Russia should attack retreat 2 rounds and leave germany with 1 tank in Karelia.
With Russia R1 purchases moved to Wrus, Russia can continue to deadzone Karelia unless Germany makes some extremely aggressive purchases. Aggressive purchase caveat: I’ve worked out the math and Germany can stack Karleia R2-R3 only with something like 8 tank buys a turn R1 and R2. This makes it immensely weak vs UK/US R4.

@guni-kid:

So to be honest, I would consider opening up a south front with that Soviet stakc against a weakly defended Ukraine then… Or other stuff, but keeping Germany out of Karelia at all costs is taking the valuable Soviet units down too quickly… Why not taking Karelia back with the Allies, landing in Scandinavia turn 4-5 and attacking the German from round 5-6 on…

If properly played, Russia can trade Karelia on attractive terms if Germany attempts to stack (e.g. kill 6 for 4 inf). Preventing Germany from producing in Karelia is essential or else Germany can produce 15 units a turn with the 2 on Karelia immediately applying pressure.
Ukraine is not as important because 1. it doesn’t have a factory 2. Russia can deadzone from either WRus or Cauc. These 2 territories are strong points of Russia due to production proximity and projection of influence across many territories.

Guni-kid, I think you are on the right track with understanding Germany pressure on Russia. My intention is to show the optimal Russia response to demonstrate why it’s not straightforward for Germany to directly kill Russia starting R1. The scenarios I discussed above are why aggressive Germany purchases (e.g. 8 tanks) and movements (e.g. trying to stack karelia or Ukr R1) are almost never seen between top players. These plays have reliable counters that leave the player at a disadvantage.

The Germany optimal line among top players is to buy 13 units a round, stack France with fighters, and stack baltic states with inf and poland with tanks and just enough infantry to trade ukraine. This is done until Karelia can be safely stacked.

The Russia optimal line is to purchase inf/art, stack Wrus, trade efficiently (e.g. trade Ukr/Belo with 2 fig/1 inf instead of 2 inf/1fig), and deadzone Karelia until R4 when UK/US can apply pressure on Germany.

[guni-kid]

@MarineIguana:

Trading heavily as you’re describing is decisively unfavorable for Russia. For the reason that 1. UK/USA can’t support until round 4 and 2. germany produces 13 vs 7-8 of Russia.

End of Russia R1, zero bid, attacking Baltic with 1inf/1art/1fig and stacking Wrus:
Wrus 9 inf/2art/4tank
Arch: 2 inf
Baltic states: 0 units or 1 art
Russia: 2 inf/2 fig/+purchases

Agreed on this just the same  :-) I would just take 2 or even 3 Inf to the attack on the Baltic states to definitely take it (brings the IPCs, blocks a heavy movement from Germany and forces him to attack there as well)

If germany stacks Karelia R1 with 7 inf/3tanks counter stack karelia with 11 inf/2art/4tank/2fig. Attack-retreat for 1 round with expected outcome of 6 germany inf lost and 4 Russia inf lost. Russia has an even better trade if Russia gains an extra 1-2 artillery in the initial bid. If low luck, Russia should attack retreat 2 rounds and leave germany with 1 tank in Karelia.
With Russia R1 purchases moved to Wrus, Russia can continue to deadzone Karelia unless Germany makes some extremely aggressive purchases. Aggressive purchase caveat: I’ve worked out the math and Germany can stack Karleia R2-R3 only with something like 8 tank buys a turn R1 and R2. This makes it immensely weak vs UK/US R4.

I have to admit the attack retreat option is a good one and it takes some guts to do it… That’s probably why only experienced players use it.

The Germany optimal line among top players is to buy 13 units a round, stack France with fighters, and stack baltic states with inf and poland with tanks and just enough infantry to trade ukraine. This is done until Karelia can be safely stacked.

The Russia optimal line is to purchase inf/art, stack Wrus, trade efficiently (e.g. trade Ukr/Belo with 2 fig/1 inf instead of 2 inf/1fig), and deadzone Karelia until R4 when UK/US can apply pressure on Germany.

That’s agreed upon as well. If you meant this deadzoning alas attack-retreat on Karelia, then we’re on the same page here. The thing is, that I basically played against intermediate Axis players so far but man, this board plays you hard as Allies if you make a mistake! Good talking about the advanced strategies and I will definitely try some stuff next time.

[theROCmonster]

First off with a 14 bid I would really have to think about giving UK a sub off india and US a destroyer off the east coast and going 100% kill Japan first. You will have to divert a fighter down to Egypt on the first turn, but being able to go KJF seems too nice to pass up.

First turn Russia buy should always be 4 inf and 2 tanks. The 2 tanks stop Germany from doing anything crazy the first turn, and if you take heavy losses in West Russia you can still stop a Karelia stack, hopefully.

Besides that I think everyone else has it correct.

[Oddbjoern]

Havent done this myself yet, but what is the feeling regarding using the 14 IPC for a UK naval buy in sz7, a destoyer + sub? Dont know the rules for biding that well, but can you perhaps buy a carrier and land the 2 UK fighters pre-round1?

[Witt]

The  rules for bidding  is whatever the two sides can agree upon. That said, most here would only allow one unit per territory or SZ and only where one of that nation already exists.
Of course you could have a Carrier, but it could be destroyed before you used it, of course.