[House Rules] Tactical Bombers and their use

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

Well taking everything into account on the topic. SBs get an attack boost from fighters and tanks already. This could be extended to cruisers and also apply to TBs on defense when combined with any of the three units. It makes a case to buy cruisers. It makes the case for surface/air coordination at the strategic level both offesively and defensively without too much complication.

Are you on fire? You seem to have a lot of ideas in the last few days.

This idea about extending the pairing bonus to cruiser is original.
This give me an example about the symbolic depiction I was talking about.
From a game perspective, it is a legitimate goal to provide some incentive to buy cruiser unit.
(Symbolic level: I think it was historically the core ship of all navies, I may be wrong.
But if it is the case, then the actual OOB cost creates distortion since it is a seldom buying.
And give the false impression it was not a worthy weapon during WWII compared to destroyers, submarines, and carriers.)

However, at first glance, it seems wrong (my guts feeling) to provide Cruiser the capacity to boost TacB on attack.
To agree with you on this specific point, I would need more explanations on the historical background of the use of Torpedoes and Dive Bombers with Cruisers, and how it provides a real case for surface/air coordination at the strategic level both offensively and defensively without too much complication. Because, I don’t see how a plane going far away from his carrier group can need or provide helps to cruisers (tactical level, here)

---

About a coordination between warships and planes unit I have another situation to analyze.
It is about the historical capacity of Fgs to sink subs vs the TcB (thinking Avenger Torpedo Bomber).

If what I learned about the ASW on U-boat is true,
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33181.msg1263095#msg1263095
so no Fg (F4F-Wildcat) were able to destroy and sink all by itself any Submarine and always need is bigger brother Avenger, it provides an historical background to get specific attribute to both.

For example, we can say: keeping the Fg give +1A to TcB when paired 1:1
Fg (A3D4) can never hit subs. And the presence of a destroyer change nothing.
TcB (A3-4D3) can always hit subs even without a destroyer, but is not an ASW and cannot forbid sub’s submerge and first strike.
In other words, TcB is attacking as any cruiser or battleship.

Example, a TcB A3D3 unit attacking a bunch of Subs,
TcB needs a Destroyer to keep them from submerging before the attack.
It can still bring with him a Fg unit, so it will raise is attacking factor to A@4.
However, Fg cannot hit subs.

This can be easily explained by the historical background.
Fg unit provide an additionnal “eye” on the ocean, Subs can be more easily seen and destroyed by the Fg and TcB coordination.

So, just changing the ability to hit or not to hit subs can modify the interest of player toward this unit. A carrier group compose of DDs and Fgs only will be much more vulnerable to a Subs attack than a mix group of Fgs and TcBs.

It can also be seen on defense against attacking Submarine, like you suggested: letting TcB D3-4.
Any Fg paired 1:1 can give +D1 to TcB.

This way, the Anti-sub warfare is simplified: Fg can never hit subs, TcB always can.
And the historical Air coordination ASW between Fg and Tc is easily depicted by this rule.

We could think also about an ASW Air to warships coordination with Fg.
Example: Fg paired 1:1 with a Destroyer unit could give +1A to Destroyer when attacking Subs.

However, this one can imply much more complication on both parts: historical bakground and game rules depiction.

On historical background, the question is which type of planes was used on mission patrol against Subs: Fg or TcB?

If is is mostly TcB, then do we really need to add a bonus from TcB toward DD or the reverse?
Because the DD ASW is already needed in the game so TcB can be able to hit subs unable to submerge.

[baron Münchhausen]

@aequitas:

@Baron:

Some interesting ways to develop a distinctive capacities for TcBs.
The capacity to hit subs vs Fgs should be examin closer.

The capacity to hit subs via any Airplane is a diffrent Type/Art of war wich will be very difficult to bring to a HR.
Just because there would be a Sub present in a selected Sz, doesn’t give you as an attacker the same opportunity to hit the same one.
If a DD is present and a Carrier, diffrent story (maybe).
But as long the Sub remains silent how would you know?

Adding a HR to hit a sub via Airplanes means that you don’t need to buy any more subs at all!

I provide a more extensive view of ASW with Fg and TcB on my previous post.

Sorry, I don’t clearly understand or cannot see all the implications you draw in your post. Help me, please.

[toblerone77]

@Baron:

@toblerone77:

Well taking everything into account on the topic. SBs get an attack boost from fighters and tanks already. This could be extended to cruisers and also apply to TBs on defense when combined with any of the three units. It makes a case to buy cruisers. It makes the case for surface/air coordination at the strategic level both offesively and defensively without too much complication.

Are you on fire? You seem to have a lot of ideas in the last few days. LOL…maybe.

This idea about extending the pairing bonus to cruiser is original. Even though historically the TB could potentially get a boost from almost any ship, In game terms the cruiser is lacking in reasons to purchase.
This give me an example about the symbolic depiction I was talking about.
From a game perspective, it is a legitimate goal to provide some incentive to buy cruiser unit. I think so.
(Symbolic level: I think it was historically the core ship of all navies, I may be wrong.
But if it is the case, then the actual OOB cost creates distortion since it is a seldom buying.
And give the false impression it was not a worthy weapon during WWII compared to destroyers, submarines, and carriers.)

However, at first glance, it seems wrong (my guts feeling) to provide Cruiser the capacity to boost TacB on attack.
To agree with you on this specific point, I would need more explanations on the historical background of the use of Torpedoes and Dive Bombers with Cruisers, and how it provides a real case for surface/air coordination at the strategic level both offensively and defensively without too much complication. Because, I don’t see how a plane going far away from his carrier group can need or provide helps to cruisers (tactical level, here) Well from a strategic level a tac bomber game piece functions as a representative of many types of light bomber including torpedo, dive-bomber and tank buster. I chose the cruiser because it is the naval counter-part of the tank in game terms. I also chose the cruiser because all in-game naval vessels have their own distinct role with the exception being the cruiser. Also I think the cruiser giving +1 over other vessels keeps it simple. A good example but off topic is destroyers, we all know destroyers did shore-bombardment, but to give them that ability in the game might make them too powerful although realistic from many POV. That is another reason I chose the cruiser. With the ability to pair with TBs gives the cruiser an advantage and it’s own niche in the game.

---

About a coordination between warships and planes unit I have another situation to analyze.
It is about the historical capacity of Fgs to sink subs vs the TcB (thinking Avenger Torpedo Bomber).

If what I learned about the ASW on U-boat is true,
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33181.msg1263095#msg1263095
so no Fg (F4F-Wildcat) were able to destroy and sink all by itself any Submarine and always need is bigger brother Avenger, it provides an historical background to get specific attribute to both.

For example, we can say: keeping the Fg give +1A to TcB when paired 1:1
Fg (A3D4) can never hit subs. And the presence of a destroyer change nothing.
TcB (A3-4D3) can always hit subs even without a destroyer, but is not an ASW and cannot forbid sub’s submerge and first strike.
In other words, TcB is attacking as any cruiser or battleship.

Example, a TcB A3D3 unit attacking a bunch of Subs,
TcB needs a Destroyer to keep them from submerging before the attack.
It can still bring with him a Fg unit, so it will raise is attacking factor to A@4.
However, Fg cannot hit subs.

This can be easily explained by the historical background.
Fg unit provide an additionnal “eye” on the ocean, Subs can be more easily seen and destroyed by the Fg and TcB coordination.

So, just changing the ability to hit or not to hit subs can modify the interest of player toward this unit. A carrier group compose of DDs and Fgs only will be much more vulnerable to a Subs attack than a mix group of Fgs and TcBs.

It can also be seen on defense against attacking Submarine, like you suggested: letting TcB D3-4.
Any Fg paired 1:1 can give +D1 to TcB.

This way, the Anti-sub warfare is simplified: Fg can never hit subs, TcB always can.
And the historical Air coordination ASW between Fg and Tc is easily depicted by this rule.

We could think also about an ASW Air to warships coordination with Fg.
Example: Fg paired 1:1 with a Destroyer unit could give +1A to Destroyer when attacking Subs.

However, this one can imply much more complication on both parts: historical bakground and game rules depiction.

On historical background, the question is which type of planes was used on mission patrol against Subs: Fg or TcB?

If is is mostly TcB, then do we really need to add a bonus from TcB toward DD or the reverse?
Because the DD ASW is already needed in the game so TcB can be able to hit subs unable to submerge. Either aircraft type was pretty capable of attacking subs, but I think the general ideas you posted here is not overly complicated a makes a good compromise between game-play, historical roles and makes the game a bit more interesting.

[baron Münchhausen]

This idea about extending the pairing bonus to cruiser is original. Even though historically the TB could potentially get a boost from almost any ship, In game terms the cruiser is lacking in reasons to purchase.

There is many ways to give some incentive toward Cruiser.

With the ability to pair with TBs gives the cruiser an advantage and it’s own niche in the game.

In itself, your idea can easily be added into my summary of various options for Cruiser.
But, wanting to stay more on the way we see Tac Bombers, I cannot see how could really work together cruiser and TcB, as I tried to show for ASW with DD…

If you can show someway, I would be glad to add it into my Pocket.

Nonetheless, you introduce another figure I never thought about: the tank buster.

Well from a strategic level a tac bomber game piece functions as a representative of many types of light bomber including torpedo, dive-bomber and tank buster.

Does the Typhoon fit into this description of TcB?

And am I wrong thinking that TcB vs Fg, have a greater range?

In which category Fg or TcB, would you put all the light planes which have a scouting role?

Either aircraft type was pretty capable of attacking subs

Attacking Subs both are capable, but destroying one? All that I infer from my main historical source is that Machine guns weren’t enough to sink a sub. Bombs or torpedoes were needed.

[CWO Marc]

@Baron:

On historical background, the question is which type of planes was used on mission patrol against Subs: Fg or TcB?

For whatever this information might be worth, the aircraft which were most involved in antisubmarine warfare in the Atlantic in the second half of WWII, when the Allies finally closed the mid-Atlantic air gap, were the PBY Catalina (a seaplane), the Wellington (a medium bomber) and the Liberator (a heavy bomber).  An effective and successful configuration for these aircraft was to equip them with ASV air-to-surface radar and with Leigh Light floodlamps.  This combination of equipment allowed them to pick up a surfaced U-boat on radar at night, approach undetected until they were virtually on top of the sub, then floodlight it and hit it with bombs before it had time to submerge.

[baron Münchhausen]

@CWO:

@Baron:

On historical background, the question is which type of planes was used on mission patrol against Subs: Fg or TcB?

For whatever this information might be worth, the aircraft which were most involved in antisubmarine warfare in the Atlantic in the second half of WWII, when the Allies finally closed the mid-Atlantic air gap, were the PBY Catalina (a seaplane), the Wellington (a medium bomber) and the Liberator (a heavy bomber). An effective and successful configuration for these aircraft was to equip them with ASV air-to-surface radar and with Leigh Light floodlamps. This combination of equipment allowed them to pick up a surfaced U-boat on radar at night, approach undetected until they were virtually on top of the sub, then floodlight it and hit it with bombs before it had time to submerge.

Thanks for the details Marc. These ones are in the Strat. Bomber category, isn’t?

And on carrier group, do you have an idea if one was mainly use of the other?
For example, do they let some Tactical Bomber doing the long range recon, while the Fg were staying with other TcB armed to attack as soon as they received a radio call?
Or they kept TcB on the carrier, launching Fgs away (being faster) until they pick a target, then all TcB and escort Fg take off from the carrier?

Or is it a mix of both, depending of which aircrafts they have under hand?

[CWO Marc]

@Baron:

Or is it a mix of both, depending of which aircrafts they have under hand?

It was none of the above.  None of the three planes I mentioned were capable of operating from a carrier.  The Catalina was a seaplane: it landed directly on the water and took off directly from the water, and could also operate from land-based runways.  The Wellington and the Liberator were exclusively land-based planes.  Both of them were too big (the Lib was about the size of a B-17 Flying Fortress) and required too much runway length to reach takeoff speed to operate from carriers.  (The Doolittle Raid proved that a Mitchell B-25 medium bomber could, with special training and techniques, take off from a carrier, but that operation was a one-time special case.)  The three aircraft I mentioned operated from bases ashore to do their ASW work.  The Lib was a four-engined bomber, so it can only be regarded (in A&A terms) as a strategic bomber.  The two-engined Wellington was, in my opinion, too big and not fast or nimble enough to be regarded as a tactical bomber – but A&A’s term “tactical bomber” is so vague and broad (and hence unsatisfactory in my opinion) that one could get into endless arguments about what it should and shouldn’t cover.

If the concept you’re interested in pursuing is focussed on pairing TacBombers with carriers for the specific purpose of attacking submarines, the closest real-life parallel I can think of was the use of escort carriers (a.k.a. jeep carriers) in the Battle of the Atlantic.  Both the US and the UK used this approach in the second half of WWII (along with the non-carrier planes I mentioned above) in their fight against the U-boats.  I can’t recall what sorts of planes jeep carriers used for this specific purpose, but as carrier-capable planes they’d be much smaller than a Wellington or a Liberator, and were thus planes which could more credibly be called tactical aircraft.

And by the way, I can’t think of a single WWII example of cruisers and Tac Bombers being paired together for ASW work, so I would recommend dropping that concept.  Unit pairings in land warfare don’t necessarily have equivalent pairings in naval warfare.

[toblerone77]

@Baron:

This idea about extending the pairing bonus to cruiser is original. Even though historically the TB could potentially get a boost from almost any ship, In game terms the cruiser is lacking in reasons to purchase.

There is many ways to give some incentive toward Cruiser. The cruiser could be dropped as far as ASW. I must have read incorrectly. I was giving the TB a plus +1 just to give the cruiser a boost in game terms.

With the ability to pair with TBs gives the cruiser an advantage and it’s own niche in the game.

In itself, your idea can easily be added into my summary of various options for Cruiser.
But, wanting to stay more on the way we see Tac Bombers, I cannot see how could really work together cruiser and TcB, as I tried to show for ASW with DD…

If you can show someway, I would be glad to add it into my Pocket.

Nonetheless, you introduce another figure I never thought about: the tank buster.

Well from a strategic level a tac bomber game piece functions as a representative of many types of light bomber including torpedo, dive-bomber and tank buster.

Does the Typhoon fit into this description of TcB? I consider the role of the typhoon as a ground attack aircraft that fits into the parameters of what I think the Tactical bomber represents in A&A.

And am I wrong thinking that TcB vs Fg, have a greater range? That is not easily pinned down if we consider Every type of Tactical bomber, but for game purposes and scale I think a range of four is appropriate.

In which category Fg or TcB, would you put all the light planes which have a scouting role?

Either aircraft type was pretty capable of attacking subs

Attacking Subs both are capable, but destroying one? All that I infer from my main historical source is that Machine guns weren’t enough to sink a sub. Bombs or torpedoes were needed. Fighters carried small bombs, but not torpedoes, and not necessarily the heavier bombs some naval TBs carried. In air-to-surface tactical warfare, whether dive bombing or using torpedoes the goal was to try and make as accurate as possibly delivery of ordinance onto the target. Machine guns could inflict a lot of damage but not the impact of bombs or rockets. Torpedoes are not really a weapon an aircraft would use to take out subs. Overall TBs run a very large spectrum. A good resource is to read up on all types to gather an average idea of what the TB probably represents.

[toblerone77]

@CWO:

@Baron:

On historical background, the question is which type of planes was used on mission patrol against Subs: Fg or TcB?

For whatever this information might be worth, the aircraft which were most involved in antisubmarine warfare in the Atlantic in the second half of WWII, when the Allies finally closed the mid-Atlantic air gap, were the PBY Catalina (a seaplane), the Wellington (a medium bomber) and the Liberator (a heavy bomber).  An effective and successful configuration for these aircraft was to equip them with ASV air-to-surface radar and with Leigh Light floodlamps.  This combination of equipment allowed them to pick up a surfaced U-boat on radar at night, approach undetected until they were virtually on top of the sub, then floodlight it and hit it with bombs before it had time to submerge.

All true.

[toblerone77]

@CWO:

@Baron:

Or is it a mix of both, depending of which aircrafts they have under hand?

It was none of the above.  None of the three planes I mentioned were capable of operating from a carrier.  The Catalina was a seaplane: it landed directly on the water and took off directly from the water, and could also operate from land-based runways.  The Wellington and the Liberator were exclusively land-based planes.  Both of them were too big (the Lib was about the size of a B-17 Flying Fortress) and required too much runway length to reach takeoff speed to operate from carriers.  (The Doolittle Raid proved that a Mitchell B-25 medium bomber could, with special training and techniques, take off from a carrier, but that operation was a one-time special case.)  The three aircraft I mentioned operated from bases ashore to do their ASW work.  The Lib was a four-engined bomber, so it can only be regarded (in A&A terms) as a strategic bomber.  The two-engined Wellington was, in my opinion, too big and not fast or nimble enough to be regarded as a tactical bomber – but A&A’s term “tactical bomber” is so vague and broad (and hence unsatisfactory in my opinion) that one could get into endless arguments about what it should and shouldn’t cover. That is a good synopsis.

If the concept you’re interested in pursuing is focussed on pairing TacBombers with carriers for the specific purpose of attacking submarines, the closest real-life parallel I can think of was the use of escort carriers (a.k.a. jeep carriers) in the Battle of the Atlantic.  Both the US and the UK used this approach in the second half of WWII (along with the non-carrier planes I mentioned above) in their fight against the U-boats.  I can’t recall what sorts of planes jeep carriers used for this specific purpose, but as carrier-capable planes they’d be much smaller than a Wellington or a Liberator, and were thus planes which could more credibly be called tactical aircraft.

And by the way, I can’t think of a single WWII example of cruisers and Tac Bombers being paired together for ASW work, so I would recommend dropping that concept.  Unit pairings in land warfare don’t necessarily have equivalent pairings in naval warfare.

[baron Münchhausen]

Unit pairings in land warfare don’t necessarily have equivalent pairings in naval warfare.

Well from a strategic level a tac bomber game piece functions as a representative of many types of light bomber including torpedo, dive-bomber and tank buster.

Does the Typhoon fit into this description of TcB? I consider the role of the typhoon as a ground attack aircraft that fits into the parameters of what I think the Tactical bomber represents in A&A.

Is their any other type of planes which should be put inside TcB category, besides torpedo, dive-bomber and tank buster?

Does the kind of rockets attack made by typhoon as aircraft tank-destroyer is a paradigm of the coordination between TcB and Tank?
So it should be the first tactical situation we should have in mind when a TcB get A4 from being paired 1:1 with a Tank?

Or is there better depiction with some Stukka dive-bomber with Panzer? Or even T-34 and Sturmovik?

Thanks sharing.

[baron Münchhausen]

@CWO:

@Baron:

Or is it a mix of both, depending of which aircrafts they have under hand?

It was none of the above. None of the three planes I mentioned were capable of operating from a carrier. The Catalina was a seaplane: it landed directly on the water and took off directly from the water, and could also operate from land-based runways. The Wellington and the Liberator were exclusively land-based planes. Both of them were too big (the Lib was about the size of a B-17 Flying Fortress) and required too much runway length to reach takeoff speed to operate from carriers. (The Doolittle Raid proved that a Mitchell B-25 medium bomber could, with special training and techniques, take off from a carrier, but that operation was a one-time special case.) The three aircraft I mentioned operated from bases ashore to do their ASW work. The Lib was a four-engined bomber, so it can only be regarded (in A&A terms) as a strategic bomber. The two-engined Wellington was, in my opinion, too big and not fast or nimble enough to be regarded as a tactical bomber – but A&A’s term “tactical bomber” is so vague and broad (and hence unsatisfactory in my opinion) that one could get into endless arguments about what it should and shouldn’t cover.

If the concept you’re interested in pursuing is focussed on pairing TacBombers with carriers for the specific purpose of attacking submarines, the closest real-life parallel I can think of was the use of escort carriers (a.k.a. jeep carriers) in the Battle of the Atlantic. Both the US and the UK used this approach in the second half of WWII (along with the non-carrier planes I mentioned above) in their fight against the U-boats. I can’t recall what sorts of planes jeep carriers used for this specific purpose, but as carrier-capable planes they’d be much smaller than a Wellington or a Liberator, and were thus planes which could more credibly be called tactical aircraft.
And by the way, I can’t think of a single WWII example of cruisers and Tac Bombers being paired together for ASW work, so I would recommend dropping that concept. Unit pairings in land warfare don’t necessarily have equivalent pairings in naval warfare.

On Jeep carrier and their planes, here is what I got:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33181.msg1263095#msg1263095

I’m not able to find much about ASW in Pacific against IJN submarines.
Do you have any idea of how they do fight them?
Was it really the same way as in the Atlantic?
Do they rely more on destroyer for antisub patrol, or even USAN submarines?
More on planes: Avenger (or Dauntless?) and/or F4F Wildcat (or F6F-Hellcat)?
If you find some links on the web, I will be very interested.

What you post point is that StB unit were able to hunt and sink submarine. That’d arise another problem of depiction on ASW. I would adress it latter.
I prefer to focus on different way of depicting Fg and TcB in combat situations of WWII.

Thanks,

My main source about F4F Wildcat doing ASW in Atlantic:
http://uboat.net/allies/aircraft/wildcat.htm

[toblerone77]

@Baron:

Well from a strategic level a tac bomber game piece functions as a representative of many types of light bomber including torpedo, dive-bomber and tank buster.

Does the Typhoon fit into this description of TcB? I consider the role of the typhoon as a ground attack aircraft that fits into the parameters of what I think the Tactical bomber represents in A&A.

Is their any other type of planes which should be put inside TcB category, besides torpedo, dive-bomber and tank buster?

Does the kind of rockets attack made by typhoon as aircraft tank-destroyer is a paradigm of the coordination between TcB and Tank?
So it should be the first tactical situation we should have in mind when a TcB get A4 from being paired 1:1 with a Tank?

Or is there better depiction with some Stukka dive-bomber with Panzer? Or even T-34 and Sturmovik?

Thanks sharing.

To be honest Baron the TB could encompass so many types of aircraft I would recommend going to Wikipedia and look up “list of WWII aircraft”. While I’m not a huge fan of wkiipedia, it will give you a general idea of all the types of aircraft without having to read endless books on the subject. My POV (And more so CWO Marc’s, he’s very knowledgeable) comes from years of personal interest and study of WWII in all it’s aspects.

I’d start with the Wikipedia article and research the categories of the different types of aircraft and then start with reference book. Once you have a consensus of what various types apply to the categories we have represented in A&A it gives you a valuable perspective on what the game and can’t represent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_World_War_II

Have fun.

[baron Münchhausen]

Ok, I will take a look into it. I’m a neophyte.
But, I’m sure that you have yet made your idea about the main categories, no?
Or, on the other side, what shouldn’t have a plane to be in the Fg category instead of the TcB, according to you?

[aequitas-et-veritas]

@Baron:

@aequitas:

@Baron:

Some interesting ways to develop a distinctive capacities for TcBs.
The capacity to hit subs vs Fgs should be examin closer.

The capacity to hit subs via any Airplane is a diffrent Type/Art of war wich will be very difficult to bring to a HR.
Just because there would be a Sub present in a selected Sz, doesn’t give you as an attacker the same opportunity to hit the same one.
If a DD is present and a Carrier, diffrent story (maybe).
But as long the Sub remains silent how would you know?

Adding a HR to hit a sub via Airplanes means that you don’t need to buy any more subs at all!

I provide a more extensive view of ASW with Fg and TcB on my previous post.

Sorry, I don’t clearly understand or cannot see all the implications you draw in your post. Help me, please.

CWOMarc explained already a lot of what I meant.
But to be more detailed and precisley:
I meant you need DD’s to detect subs, any airplanes can’t detect SS unless they had been given orders to fly to a certain sz by Bletchley Park and start their search.
As CWOMarc allready mentioned, catalinas could take off and land on sea and didn’t need much of a performance to drop their load like TacB to destroy Subs.
I added Carrier along with DD’s to detect SS, but was more thinking of detecting SS in touching sz (recon planes for example, I don’t know). A nice and need adding for a HR.
The Subs greatest benefit was to be silence. As long nobody knew that there was a sub arround, it was the deadliest weapon arround.
These are all abilitys a TacB does not quiet fit in I think.
If I recall correctly, there may be confirmed sinkings of German subs by Spitfires at Gibraltar, but I might err.

[CWO Marc]

@Baron:

But, I’m sure that you have yet made your idea about the main categories, no?
Or, on the other side, what shouldn’t have a plane to be in the Fg category instead of the TcB, according to you?

I’m going to go out on a bit of a limb here by proposing my own generic definition of the three aircraft types mentioned in the A&A rules.  It’s a personal definition, so there’s nothing gospel about it, but I hope it will provide you with a useful basis for thinking about these three very broad aircraft types.  And I’ll immediately add these qualifiers: 1) the A&A StBm, TacBm and Ftr categories are in many ways artificial categories created for game purposes; and 2) in the real world of WWII, some aircraft could be seen as fitting a very narrow type but others were very versatile multi-mission aircraft – especially when their model variants are taken into account – which could serve effectively in many roles.

So, with those qualifiers out of the way, here’s how I see those categories.

A fighter is an aircraft whose primary mission is to shoot down other aircraft in air-to-air combat (bombers, other fighters, ground-attack planes, reconnaissance planes, or whatever).  Aircraft well suited to this primary mission are typically fast and maneuverable; fighters with an exceptionally high rate of climb are sometimes described as interceptors.  In WWII, their primary armament for air-to-air combat usually consisted of machine guns and/or small automatic cannons (typically 20mm).  In very, very general terms (since exceptions exist), they tended to be smaller than bombers – though this was sometimes very relative depending on the specific aircraft types being compared.  Fighters tend to be shorter-ranged than bombers: they carry less fuel (to avoid having the excess weight impair their maneuverability), and in active combat they consume fuel at a very high rate because they’re using their engine(s) at full power.  Drop tanks compensate for this fuel problem to some degree.  Fighters can attack ground targets (strafing being one such form of attack), but a fighter which is optimzed for air-to-air combat is not ideal in the ground-attack role, since the sighting mechanisms, the weapons and the aerodynamic characteristics required for the two roles are different. (Basically, air-to-air combat requires high maneuverability at high speeds, while ground-attack missions require high stability and steadiness at low speeds.  A high-performance air-superiority fighter flown at the combat engagement speed of a ground-attack aircraft might very well stall and crash.)

In A&A terms, the way I’d distinguish a tactical bomber from a strategic bomber would be to say that a tactical bomber has the primary mission of attacking highly specific (and often moving) targets on the ground or in the water, while a strategic bomber has the primary mission of attacking more geographically diffuse (and usually static) targets on the ground (but almost never in the water). To put it another way: tactical bombers function a bit like tank guns (which fire a single shell in a straight line at a specific target at short range), while strategic bombers function a bit like howitzers (which fire a barrage of shells in a high, indirect curve towards a general target area at long range).

To highlight this distinction, I’m going to switch at this point from the term “tactical bomber” (which I feel is too problematic) to “strike aircraft” (also known as “attack aircraft” or “surface-attack aircraft”).  Such planes fall into many subtypes, such as tank-buster planes, dive bombers, fighter-bombers, torpedo bombers, light bombers, and the fuzzy category of multi-mission strike planes.  Their common characteristic is that their mission involves attacking very specific (and often fairly small) individual targets (such as a tank, a train or a ship) with a high degree of precision, usually from a very low altitude.  In WWII, strike aircraft carried such ordnance as bombs (small to medium sized) and/or rockets, and some were equiped with heavy automatic cannons (around 35mm).  Their weapon load was almost always very limited in quantity.  They had good aerodynamic performance at low altitude (where the air is denser that at high altitude) and at low speeds (which was necessary to allow them to aim accurately at their targets, especially when these were very small).  Strike aircraft often provided direct, on-the-spot support to friendly forces, and thus often operated close to the front lines. They had some ability to defend themselves against other aircraft, but were not optimized for that role and hence were typically at a disadvantage when engaging fighters (since fighters are optimized to shoot down other planes, in the same way that an agile attack submarine is better at killing other subs than an unwieldy ballistic missile submarine, even though both types are armed with torpedoes).

Strategic bombers, as I’ve already said, had the primary mission in WWII of attacking more geographically diffuse (and usually static) targets on the ground.  In WWII (pre-smart bomb days), this usually meant attacking areas rather than specific individual targets: one example would be cities, but other examples from June 1944 would be the coastal defenses on the Normandy coast and the areas of the French bocage countryside where German troops were dug in.  WWII strategic bombers tended to be big, long-range, relatively slow aircraft.  They tended to carry a large payload of bombs (explosive or incendiary), which they tend to drop from a high altitude (though not always).  They tended to conduct raids deep behind enemy lines.  Their accuracy in WWII was pretty bad by the laser-guided standards of 2014; even in daylight, with the aid of the Norden bombsight, the Americans didn’t have an easy time taking out specific targets even when they were as large as factory complexes (for example the Schweinfurt ball bearing plant).  Their performance against moving surface ships tended to be poor (the B-17s which attacked the Japanese fleet at Midway scored no hits as I recall), though there were exceptions (such as the ASV/Leigh Light ASW planes I mentioned previously).  Even against big, static naval targets – such as the Tirpitz at Trondheim – they were lucky to hit targets which were that specific.  Their organic defensive capabilities varied depending on the specific type (the American B-17 and B-29 were well-armed by bomber standards), but this protection was marginal at best against full-fledged enemy fighters flown by good pilots.  The best protection for a bomber was an escort fighter, especially a long-range one which could stay at the bomber’s side for the whole mission.

[baron Münchhausen]

Thanks Marc,
it was exactly what I needed to see straight.
It will clearly help me.
Even if it is not gospel, it is still a very good reference IMO.

And what is funny about your accurate description on the combat situation of TcB tactical (named strike-aircraft) is it helped me name a feel faint about the TcB and Tank interaction:

Their common characteristic is that their mission involves attacking very specific (and often fairly small) individual targets (such as a tank, a train or a ship) with a high degree of precision, usually from a very low altitude. In WWII, strike aircraft carried such ordnance as bombs (small to medium sized) and/or rockets, and some were equipped with heavy automatic cannons (around 35mm).  Their weapon load was almost always very limited in quantity.  They had good aerodynamic performance at low altitude (where the air is denser that at high altitude) and at low speeds (which was necessary to allow them to aim accurately at their targets, especially when these were very small).  Strike aircraft often provided direct, on-the-spot support to friendly forces, and thus often operated close to the front lines. They had some ability to defend themselves against other aircraft, but were not optimized for that role and hence were typically at a disadvantage when engaging fighters…

These many characteristics don’t seem to be depict at their best in the “when paired 1:1 with a Tank, TcB get A4”.

This capacity given to TcB seems to put the tactical situation upside down.
It is the supporting weapon (TcB) which receives the bonus instead of the supported (Tank) unit.
It was clear about our Fg discussion, that it was Fg which get a supporting role toward TcB.
Hence, Fg gives +1A to TcB.

Based on this preceeding OOB rule and the historical description you just provided, it should be the TcB which give +1A to Tank, not the contrary.

Don’t you think?

Do you have any idea, why it finished the other way around?

Based on this change, it would have give this:
Fg gives +1A when paired 1:1 to TcB,
TcB gives +1A when paired 1:1 to Tank.

Maybe it was too easily confusing, because someone with 1 Fg, 1 TcB and 1 Tank on offence could have think this way:
1 Fg A3D4C10 + 1 TcB A4D3C11 + 1 Tk A4D3C6.
So, 1 TcB unit would have given +2A bonus.

Otherwise, I can not see why they didn’t make it that way.

However, it is also a way to create an HR which can somehow boosted a little more the TcB at 11 IPCs and create an incentive to buy more of them.
So, instead of just working in pair, it could work in trio:
1 Fg is protecting a TcB (can be matched with) on offence, give TcB A4.
this TcB is also protecting (can also be matched to) a Tk on offence, give Tk A4.

Of course, at first glance, nothing forbid to give also these bonus on defence.
In this case Fg-TcB-Tk (A11D12C27) become a dangerous triumvirate on the battlefield.

And this raise the question of balance between units:
4 Inf+Art= A16D16C28. 7 Art= A14D14C28. 9 Inf= A9D18C27.
Would you find the triumvirate too overpowered?

EDIT:
I add this different description of the TcB and StB by kcdzim for completeness and comparison:

Part of this stems from simplified game mechanics and part of it certainly stems from earlier versions.

In the previous games, they weren’t called Strategic Bombers. They were bombers.
And “Bombers” certainly included more than just high altitude heavy bombers.

The nomenclature changed but their roles haven’t: Strategic Bombers still include medium bombers. The fact that Tactical bombers are compatible with carriers, implies they represent smaller planes. Yes, the Mitchell flew off a carrier for the Doolittle Raid, but that was a VERY specialized use of a medium bomber that was essentially stripped to even get off the flight deck. So Strategic bombers still include medium bombers like the Mitchell, and Tactical bombers are more akin to heavy fighters, ground attack, dive bombers, torpedo bombers, etc., which were more often single engine or single pilot or pilot/navigator, and not manned with a substantial crew, didn’t carry substantial loads.

Historically, medium Bombers like the Mitchell, Invader, Havoc, etc., were effective in low altitude bombing/torpedo attacks on naval units. Torpedoes obviously worked well, but Skip bombing was also very effective against transport and warship alike and used extensively by the allies in the south pacific (battle of the Bismarck sea being a good example). B17’s even got in on the action. It’s just not a high altitude bombing run that you imagine from “strategic bombers” and movies like Memphis Belle.

Look at the Tac bombers we have: a ground attack tank killer (Sturmovik), 3 dive bombers (Stuka, Dauntless, Val) and a Mosquito, which is a blurred recon/day and night fighter/torp bomber/fast bomber/pest. None of those are really close to the role of the Mitchell (which is certainly a “tactical bomber” by any standard definition EXCEPT this game). There’s no good single name that covers the roles of aircraft in between Air superiority Fighter and Strategic Bomber. Tactical Bomber is what we have, but you NEED to imagine it means heavy fighter/dive bomber/torpedo bomber/ground attack/night fighter/fighter-bomber as well. And NOT medium bomber.

Until the game differentiates further with medium bombers vs high altitude bombers (it’s not likely to as that favours the allies), then “strategic bombers” is still somewhat accurate as they don’t simply represent Heavy Bombers alone and it’s acceptable to use them to represent the role of Medium bombers in Naval warfare.

http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=5629

[baron Münchhausen]

CWOMarc explained already a lot of what I meant.
But to be more detailed and precisley:
I meant you need DD’s to detect subs, any airplanes can’t detect SS unless they had been given orders to fly to a certain sz by Bletchley Park and start their search.
As CWOMarc already mentioned, catalinas could take off and land on sea and didn’t need much of a performance to drop their load like TacB to destroy Subs.
I added Carrier along with DD’s to detect SS, but was more thinking of detecting SS in touching sz (recon planes for example, I don’t know). A nice and need adding for a HR.
The Subs greatest benefit was to be silence. As long nobody knew that there was a sub around, it was the deadliest weapon around.
These are all abilities a TacB does not quiet fit in I think.
If I recall correctly, there may be confirmed sinkings of German subs by Spitfires at Gibraltar, but I might err.
Thanks, I will look into it.

On the carrier as ASW, I retrieve this from an older thread about light and escort carrier, you can follow the link to get the whole picture:
@Baron:

@toblerone77:

I’m thinking more like “cheap carrier”. One IPC (9 total) over the half price of a regular fleet carrier, otherwise you may as well just buy a fleet carrier. As far as ASW I’m thinking that it should have destroyer-like abilities only when paired with a tactical bomber.

So if we stay in Global,
CVE : A0D1C9, 1 hit, carry1 plane, become ASW when paired with a TacB.
vs
CV A0D2C16, 2 hits, carry 2 planes.

And from an historical point of view,
are you sure Fg have no attack capabilities against Subs, even non-submerge one?
I find this more simple to give ASW to the CVE, whether Fg or Tac inboard.
Besides, it is a less powerful ASW than DD because it has only @1. Their real strength still lies in the plane.

Even in a HR game in which StB and TcB can directly hit subs without DD, Destroyer would stay necessary to block Subs capacities.
A StB unit flying over a bunch of German U-boats could do nothing to sink them.
So, even in this situation, Subs are not sitting duck in the ocean. They stay an efficient weapon.

In fact, allowing some planes to directly hit subs is making the subs a more useful unit as a cheaper fodder (6 IPCs instead of 8 IPCs for DD) to protect any fleet against all kind of attackers units.

You can read this discussion to better understand how Subs replaces DDs “when planes can hit subs”.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=14344.msg1265585#msg1265585

[baron Münchhausen]

@CWO:

@Baron:

On historical background, the question is which type of planes was used on mission patrol against Subs: Fg or TcB?

For whatever this information might be worth, the aircraft which were most involved in antisubmarine warfare in the Atlantic in the second half of WWII, when the Allies finally closed the mid-Atlantic air gap, were the PBY Catalina (a seaplane), the Wellington (a medium bomber) and the Liberator (a heavy bomber).  An effective and successful configuration for these aircraft was to equip them with ASV air-to-surface radar and with Leigh Light floodlamps.  This combination of equipment allowed them to pick up a surfaced U-boat on radar at night, approach undetected until they were virtually on top of the sub, then floodlight it and hit it with bombs before it had time to submerge.

I’ve just revised the list of IJN Submarines to find if there is many of them which were sink by planes. It appears that there is not much. Most of them were sunk by destroyers or submarines. A few by Patrol Squadron compose of similar aircrafts as you mention above.
A special case, is the I-52 destroyed by an Avenger from the Escort Carrier USS Bogue by dropping a Mark 24 “mine” torpedo:

It also had 9 FM-2 Wildcats and 12 TBF-1C Avenger of VC-69 on board. The task force, on its way from Hampton Roads to Casablanca, had sunk another Japanese submarine, the Type IX RO-501 (formerly U-1224) on 13 May 1944. This was a very effective force, sinking 13 German and Japanese submarines between February 1943 and July 1945.

So, even if this seems contrary to the intuition, no Wildcat nor any other fighters seems to be able to kill by itself a Submarine, always an Avenger is needed.
I found a detail description about how TcB and Fg works against subs in a Hunter-killer groups:
http://www.uboat.net/allies/ships/uss_guadalcanal-4.htm

So, inside the basic OOB rule which said “Plane cannot hit subs”, and based on this more careful examination, and as far as I know, it would be a better depiction if the game rules allows only:
TcB and StB to be able to hit subs when a DD is present.
and on the other part, a Fg can never hit subs.

This could have been a real incentive to buy TcB unit on carrier to protect them from Submarines, and it would have give to Fg and TcB a more delineated capacity to both of them.
Regardless of the A/D value between them.

And, via this symbolic depiction of war, adding a “correct WWII tactical and strategical impression” on all G40 players.

---

Now, do you think there is a glimpse of truth about my first statement, made much earlier?

Once this said, I think TacB is the newest (except for AAA guns) unit introduced and can have a better place and much more historical feel in relation to SBR escort and intercept (air vs air combat) rules, and vs regular combat: ground and naval.
(As for now, I’m just thinking that TacBs should have a combat value against Subs (not Fighters), even without DDs, they represent Dive and Torpedos bombers after all.)

[baron Münchhausen]

So to summarize in a game description, the various point develop amongst the thread to create a different TcB and Fg unit, more rooted on the historical background:

TcB A3-4D3-4M4C11 (as OOB can hit subs when paired to DD),
when teamed to 1 Tank, TcB gives +1A/D to this unit.
TcB**can still received +1A/D, if also paired to a Fg.**

Fg A3D4M4C10 Can never hit subs.
When teamed 1:1 to 1 TcB, give +1A/D to this unit.

---

Is this kind of units too complicated for Global player? I don’t think.

The three units coordination, too unbalancing: probably, but this wasn’t the point.
It was simpler to give it A/D than giving to attack only.

But, when you look at this units, you clearly see how Tank should need TcB support, and how TcB should need Fg escort.

Even on ASWarfare mission attacking for Subs, it becomes plausible to let Fg units give a support bonus to TcB without being able to directly hit subs. Another historical tactical depiction feel.

Finally, Fg unit A3D4 kept is distinctive defensive symbolic value.
It is the most valuable unit on defense.
And Fgs provides to TcB an air advantage which allows it to reach the symbolic “4”, never by itself.

Making TcB inferior (A3D3) offence and defence compared directly to Fg unit and because of the additional 1 IPC.
However, all this matching bonus make them a very dangerous pair on the battlefield.
As it was in WWII.

---

Adding to this that Fg can intercept on an SBR while the TcB cannot.

I can also provide an additional but simple aspect to help Fg be a better aircraft during SBR: an air superiority aircraft over TcB and StB units.

Inspired by 1914 dogfight phase, simply

allows a second cycle @1 to Fgs units, both attacking and defending. (Where StBs and TcBs are limited to a first cycle A@1.)

And if you feel that defending plane should have a better hand over attacking one

then, on this second cycle, roll the defending Fgs first, pick the casualty.
Then, roll for the attacking Fg, then remove the defenders casualty.

This first strike for defending Fgs on a second cycle, would clearly make a small difference.

Now we have a whole picture, of small but accurate aspects which can provide a better “feeling” of both Fgs and TcBs functions and usefulness during WWII.

And all this, playing near the actual OOB game system.

---

That’s just some kind of rules (intended to be as much simple as possible) based on what inspired the different historical and accurate description of WWII situation.

I still think the depiction of the reality can somehow find a large consensus.

But this never implied a large consensus over any rules trying to translate in game terms some interesting features draw from this historical vision.
That is where the fun begin about HR comparison, there goal, there game implications, there historical value, etc.