Exploring cheaper & weaker AAA guns unit to incite purchase

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

Here is the different values and ability brought up to enhance the popularity of AAA guns which I think can make a balance unit:

Lowering cost: 5, 4 or 3 IPCs. (2 was too unbalancing IMHO)

Varying the number of planes targeted: 1, 2, 3, 4, unlimited.
Allowing fire on planes first round only, or every round.
Allowing up to the max of 1 roll per plane…
Or just 1 hit per each AAA as a regular unit.

Allowing or not preemptive strike: first round, every round, none.
On planes only, and on Tank or Ground units.

Making it Anti-tank gun in addition (when no plane is present): target 1 or 3 Tank, on first round.

Adding a regular firing (when no plane) or after first round: A0D1, or even A1D1.

Allowing regular Move, not just NCM.
Making 2 AAAs units able to load on a single transport.

I think it summarize all the abilities. Did I forget something?

Based on all this above, here the interesting (from my perspective) combination of AAA gun developed here and elsewhere:

As a reference OOB:
A0D0C5 NCM1, 1 hit but auto-destroy if alone vs ground units,
preemptive targeting @1 up to 3 planes per AAA, whichever is less.

a) OOB Cost 4
b) OOB Cost 3

c) OOB Cost 5, up to 4 planes
d) OOB Cost 4, up to 4 planes
e) OOB Cost 3, up to 2 planes

f) OOB Cost 5, A0D1 when no plane or after first round. But regular 1 hit.
g) OOB Cost 5, A1D1M1 can attack and defend reg., regular 1 hit.

h) OOB, target preemptive @1 up to 3 tank per AAA, whichever is less.
I) OOB, target 1 tank preemptive @1.

J) OOB Classic, undestructible, @1 vs all planes, no hit, capturable.
k) OOB A0D0, preemptive @1 vs all planes, or preemptive @1 vs 1 tank.
l) OOB A0D0, preemptive @1 vs all planes, or preemptive @1 vs all tank.
m) OOB A0D0, preemptive @1 vs all planes, or preemptive @1 vs all ground units.
n) OOB A0D0, preemptive @1 vs all planes, or preemptive @1 vs 1 ground units.
o) J to n with A0D1

p) A0D1 cost 3, M1 on CM or NCM but cannot attack (it is for faster transport move), 1 hit as reg unit, preemptive @1 target up to 2 planes: 1 roll per plane max, reg D1 after (or if no plane)
q)  A0D1 cost 3, NCM1, 1 hit as reg unit, each round can target 1 plane @1: 1 roll per plane per round max, reg D1 if no plane. Transport can hold 2 AAAs.

[baron Münchhausen]

@crusaderiv:

AA guns =
@1 at each plane. Remove casualty. No defend.
@1 at ground troops. Remove casualty. No defend.
D1 on being attacked.
Cost 5

Bingo. A simple rule.
Exception…German can used AA gun as 88 gun. Player can choose to destroy tank or plane but no both.
(If choose the tank, AA gun can roll each turn).
You can add something similar to the UK player. Bophor gun.
Against plane or infantry. Same rule…

As far as I understand you meant (see n version, on last post), each AAA is:
OOB A0D0, preemptive @1 vs all planes, or preemptive @1 vs 1 ground unit.

**with A0D1 for all other rounds after first?

1 hit value as OOB (auto-destroy if only AAA)?
Or as a regular unit (Can defend the territory when there is only AAA)?**

[baron Münchhausen]

However, there is a real problem with 5 IPCs classic style AA gun:
If you can target all planes over a territory, why bother to buy more than one?
I’m not sure it will really increase the number of AAA bought.

If you add a preemptive Anti-Tank or Anti-ground units, maybe it will be more popular but probably because it becomes near too powerful.

I will also add that making AAA preemptive Anti-ground units in addition to Anti-Tank, is too much and doesn’t seems very historical (real Artillery Guns have greater range) and affect the dynamics of the game.

Preemptive Anti-Tank could make sense from an historical POV because, for example German Flak 41 88MM was used like this during Africa’s campaign by Rommel.

During the North African campaign, Rommel made the most effective use of the weapon, as he lured tanks of the British 8th Army into traps by baiting them with apparently retreating German panzers. One example of this tactic was the battle of Faid, where Rommel hid and camouflaged many Flak 88s in cactus filled areas, inexperienced U.S tankers and commanders rushed into a valley at Faid only to be completely obliterated, losses were most, if not all U.S tanks to zero Flak 88s. When the enemy tanks pursued, concealed 88s picked them off at ranges far beyond those of their 2-pdr and 6-pdr guns. A mere two flak battalions destroyed 264 tanks throughout 1941.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_Flak_41#Support_of_German_ground_troops

I think, that for balance, if you could do either preemptive Anti-Air or Anti-Tank with 1 AAA units, then it shouldn’t get any other capacity after first round.

Keep the same AAA A0D0C5NCM1, 1 hit, preemptive @1 for up to three units per AAA (whichever is lower: max 1 roll/plane or tank), either Planes or Tanks, not both (defender choice, no obligation to hit aircraft first), seems simpler.

In the perspective of a more powerful AAA able to roll every round,
maybe let’s the plane and Tank have a specific attack capacity like this:
Any attacking Aircraft on “1” roll can choose an AAA as casualty.
Any attacking Tank on “1” roll can choose an AAA as casualty.

[Zombie69]

AAA are pretty good at what they do as is, i.e. take a shot at 3 planes then get taken as the first hit in order to keep an INF alive and fighting. You could theoretically drop them all the way to 3 IPC (no lower), but whatever you do, don’t allow them to fire past the opening shots.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Zombie69:

AAA are pretty good at what they do as is, i.e. take a shot at 3 planes then get taken as the first hit in order to keep an INF alive and fighting. You could theoretically drop them all the way to 3 IPC (no lower), but whatever you do, don’t allow them to fire past the opening shots.

Do you mean fire at planes after first combat round? If not, I’d like to see your reason why.

Because making it a regular unit A0 D1 M1 in NCM after first combat round is no big deal from a balance POV, IMO.
In this case, the attacker choose any casualties as he wish. And it is half defense value than a regular Infantry.
In big fight, sooner than later AAA unit will be chosen as casualty.

[Zombie69]

Yes, I do mean firing at planes. Letting them fire normally (opponent chooses) after the opening salve wouldn’t change anything. In fact, it’s not even worth adding to the mix before it practically makes no difference at all. If my AAA defended at 1 after the opening salve, I would still take it as my first loss just like I do now (before any infantry), so they would rarely, if ever, get to use that ability anyway.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Zombie69:

Yes, I do mean firing at planes. Letting them fire normally (opponent chooses) after the opening salve wouldn’t change anything. In fact, it’s not even worth adding to the mix before it practically makes no difference at all. If my AAA defended at 1 after the opening salve, I would still take it as my first loss just like I do now (before any infantry), so they would rarely, if ever, get to use that ability anyway.

In some circumstances, when attacker is just straffing a territory, or gets poor dices on the first combat rounds, if the defender think he could win (or the attacker will retreat) without loosing more precious units (like artillery or tank) it is a real dilemma when the AAA worth 5 IPCs. The replacement cost is higher than for a single infantry. So, putting it at regular D1 is a kind of consolation price and for keeping uniformity amongst grounds units. A single regular roll @1 is still a chance to hit something, even if it is low. It is still better than actual OOB nothing.

If someone wants to keep the dilemma about replacement cost, then this means that AAA should be higher than Infantry. So putting AAA at 4 IPCs working as a regular unit after the initial combat round is the lower we can drop.

At 3 IPCs, unless being far away from IC (wanting to keep them near front lines), it would always be better to take it amongst first losses and buy a new one.

So, I partly agree with you, for an AAA A0 D0* NCM1 C3 (@1 against up to 2 planes whichever the lesser) there is no big needs to make it D1.
But there is still the case when no plane are on the attacker sides, at least letting them roll a regular D1 is a way to not make it a complete waste for the defender.
That’s why I think AAA A0 D1 NCM1 C3 is probably the way to create an incentive for buying this unit.

Cheaper, always active on defense, less effective than the OOB AAA against 3 planes (which means players will need to buy more for defense.)

[Zombie69]

Well, I disagree. AAA are supposed to defend against planes, period. It’s an interesting tactical decision whether or not to place them on the front line, based on whether you think planes will be attacking you. Making them defend against everything just makes them less interesting and more like standard units, which would be a shame. If you think they’re too weak, make them cost less (no lower than 3) and/or defend against more planes.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Zombie69:

Well, I disagree. AAA are supposed to defend against planes, period. It’s an interesting tactical decision whether or not to place them on the front line, based on whether you think planes will be attacking you. Making them defend against everything just makes them less interesting and more like standard units, which would be a shame. If you think they’re too weak, make them cost less (no lower than 3) and/or defend against more planes.

Exactly, the idea is to simplify the way AAA works. No need to have a zero defense. It is a gameplay orientation first.

But, there is also an historical way of seeing AAA units as a mobile Antiaircraft division.

The new sculpt is no more like the old one which was meant to protect both IC and ground units in a territory.
The in-built AA gun on IC is strictly a fixed and armored position.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Bofors_M1927_76mm_AA_gun_Suomenlinna.JPG/800px-Bofors_M1927_76mm_AA_gun_Suomenlinna.JPG

The new AAA unit is more intended to be mobile and to follow other grounds units on the move to provide some protection against aircrafts.
Just take a look at those various pictures of Bofor guns to get an idea of the variability of such weapon.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=bofor+40mm&hl=fr&rlz=1T4SAVT_frCA579CA582&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=lD69U_ysOseYyASyw4DICw&ved=0CDYQsAQ&biw=1344&bih=697#hl=fr&q=bofor+gun&tbm=isch

Or the numerous use of the German’s Flak 88 against Infantry and Tank:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=bofor+40mm&hl=fr&rlz=1T4SAVT_frCA579CA582&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=lD69U_ysOseYyASyw4DICw&ved=0CDYQsAQ&biw=1344&bih=697#hl=fr&q=88+flak&tbm=isch

I was looking for a thread on AA guns which provides pictures about three different types. I cannot find it for now.
But here is the beginning of the exchange which get me change my mind on AAA:
@Uncrustable:

Omw
I’m sure glad you 2 are not the game developers lol

I imagine the mech inf represents a mechanized division
Distinct from an infantry or armored division
I believe USA calls it an armored Calvalry division however

A division is a large military unit (10000-30000 soldiers) capable of independent operations due to it’s self sustaining role and it’s range of combat personal and suitable combat support forces
Infantry division
Mechanized division (armored Calvalry)
Armored division
Artillery division
**Anti aircraft division

Capable of independent operations
Due to…combat support forces**
An anti aircraft division does not need to be towed around by a mechanized division lol
It’s perfectly capable of moving itself

Here is an AAA units at the opposite of the Spectrum (there is some posts in this thread about AAA topics):
@Uncrustable:

2. Enhanced AAA. AAA now acts as a normal unit outside of AA rolls. They no longer are restricted to non combat moves and attack/defend at 1/1. No changes to AA rolls. AA rolls are defense only (# of dice rolled does not change from OOB) AAA price remains OOB.

About boosting AAA strength against plane, it will go in the opposite way as expected. Instead of providing an incentive, it will be less needed.

Example: If you allow an AAA to fire against up to 4 planes, you will need 2 AAA against 8 planes while it will require 3 OOB AAA to get the cover against same number of planes.

[Zombie69]

All I know is that the decision whether or not to buy AAA is much more interesting tactically if it only fires at planes, so I wouldn’t want to take that away from the game. I find current OOB AAA all right as is, and I do buy it under certain circumstances (mainly for defense of UK or India, but also, although more rarely, under other circumstances). If you want to see more of it, just make it cost 3 and leave it at that. I’ve got nothing else to say on the matter.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Zombie69:

All I know is that the decision whether or not to buy AAA is much more interesting tactically if it only fires at planes, so I wouldn’t want to take that away from the game. I find current OOB AAA all right as is, and I do buy it under certain circumstances (mainly for defense of UK or India, but also, although more rarely, under other circumstances). If you want to see more of it, just make it cost 3 and leave it at that. I’ve got nothing else to say on the matter.

The main effect of a 3 IPCs OOB AAA is only that it is statistically a lot more cost efficient.
5 AAA C3 means up to 15 planes for 15 IPCs.

For balance reason, I suggested that at 3 IPCs, the AAA gun could only fire against up to 2 planes.
5 AAA* C3 means up to10 planes for 15 IPCs.

3 OOB AAA means up to 9 planes for 15 IPCs.

10 targets is nearer OOB than 15 possible targets.

[Black_Elk]

Not sure if I missed it somewhere in here, but you are still discussing anti-aircraft artillery that can be taken as a fodder, correct? For my part, I’m just going to come out and say it, I think AA guns are the single most annoying unit in A&A! Always there when you need them, to be forgotten on Non-Combat, to screw a Russian NO, or more recently to die instantly as fodder  :-D

I wish they were more interesting, but if I had to vote up or down, I’d say ditch the unit altogether and save the plastic for more infantry.  The AA gun’s abilities could easily be collapsed into any territory with a Factory or Victory City, and the game would probably play out more or less the same way it does now, just with less confusion. You wouldn’t have to worry about moving them around (with their weird non-com restrictions, the only ground unit that behaves this way), or worry about where to put the as blitz “blockers.” They would be harder to abuse when technology transforms them into Rockets, or Radar towers. That last tech point is worth dwelling on, since in most games the main interest in AAguns was their tech advances. That doesn’t do much to recommend the unit in my mind. I think it would be easier to just attach normal combat AAgun abilities to critical territories directly, either as part of the factory unit or as an aspect of the VC.

Likewise, if Rocket or Radar is researched, those abilities could be attached to the Factory unit or VC directly.

If the unit is going to be sculpted and take up space in the bag, then it should at least have a normal combat role beyond fodder, non com blocker, or opening shot. A gun that could fire in each round of the combat phase would make more sense from a purchasing value perspective.

[Faramir]

Just keep it simple and have them defend at 1 instead of 0 and allow them to move during the combat move phase. Keep everything else the same.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Faramir:

Just keep it simple and have them defend at 1 instead of 0 and allow them to move during the combat move phase. Keep everything else the same.

I really agree, these two points makes this unit simpler. And allows to erase some strange rules on AAA.

But it is not a sufficient incentive to buy more of them.
At 4 IPCs, probably becomes more interesting for Germany and Russia.

Because the basics choice is between AAA or Inf. And many times buying an AAA at 5 IPCs reveals to be of no interest because only grounds units invade a territory.
So, even if it seems statistically balance at 5 IPCs, the maths never consider this situation which happen often.
That’s why at 4 IPCs it can increase the interest for this unit even if it defends at half rate of an INF (D1 vs D2).

[Derek]

@Uncrustable:

Omw
I’m sure glad you 2 are not the game developers lol

I imagine the mech inf represents a mechanized division
Distinct from an infantry or armored division
I believe USA calls it an armored Calvalry division however

A division is a large military unit (10000-30000 soldiers) capable of independent operations due to it’s self sustaining role and it’s range of combat personal and suitable combat support forces
Infantry division
Mechanized division (armored Calvalry)
Armored division
Artillery division
**Anti aircraft division

Capable of independent operations
Due to…combat support forces**
An anti aircraft division does not need to be towed around by a mechanized division lol
It’s perfectly capable of moving itself

Here is an AAA units at the opposite of the Spectrum (there is some posts in this thread about AAA topics):
@Uncrustable:

2. Enhanced AAA. AAA now acts as a normal unit outside of AA rolls. They no longer are restricted to non combat moves and attack/defend at 1/1. No changes to AA rolls. AA rolls are defense only (# of dice rolled does not change from OOB) AAA price remains OOB.

I feel so special =]
Personally I feel classic style AA guns to make more sense from a realism standpoint. While being simpler and more poweful.
An AA Gun represents a territory wide network of radar and guns. Thus it cannot move during combat.
Global 1939 uses this version I believe.
It also reduces clutter on the game board that the new AAA sculpts caused.
I would argue make it an immovable facility with the same rules as bases. It can be SBR’d and is destroyed instead of damaged. Got this from 1939 too

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

@Faramir:

Just keep it simple and have them defend at 1 instead of 0 and allow them to move during the combat move phase. Keep everything else the same.

I really agree, these two points makes this unit simpler. And allows to erase some strange rules on AAA.

But it is not a sufficient incentive to buy more of them.
At 4 IPCs, probably becomes more interesting for Germany and Russia.

Because the basics choice is between AAA or Inf. And many times buying an AAA at 5 IPCs reveals to be of no interest because only grounds units invade a territory. So, even if it seems statistically balance at 5 IPCs, the maths never consider this situation which happen often.
That’s why at 4 IPCs it can increase the interest for this unit even if it defends at half rate of an INF (D1 vs D2).

I finally found a much better way to use AAA in each combat round instead of only the opening combat round.
This simplify the rules about how to handle them.This give much more uniformity compared to other units.

ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY A0 D0 NCM1 Cost 3, 1 hit,
Up to 2 preemptive defense @1 against up to 2 planes, whichever the lesser, (as OOB AAA but slightly weaker) and
Fire up to 2 regular defense @1 against up to 2 planes on the following combat rounds.
Stop any blitz, but cannot defend itself against enemy’s ground units.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35643.msg1393799#msg1393799

And this defensive unit can compete in a balanced way with my special Fighter unit:

FIGHTER A2 D2-3 M4, same in SBR Cost 6
Air combat unit, Fighter as an Air Superiority aircraft: All hits are allocated to aircraft units first, if any available, then AAA, and finally other kind of units.
Fighter as part of an extended Air Defense System:
1 Fighter units receive +1 Defense if protecting a territory with an operational Air Base, (for 1942.2, 2 Fgs can scramble from a Victory City instead.)
SBR/TcBR Attack @2, Defend @2, or even Defend @3 for 1 Fg if an operational Air Base is present.
Can scramble in adjacent SZ up to 4 Fgs: 3 defend @2 and 1 defend @3, getting the +1 Defense bonus from an operational Air Base.
Can hit submarines without Anti-Sub Vessel.

So, two 3 IPCs AAA have no offensive value or no great mobility but at least provides a matching defensive capabilities similar to two special Fighters:
Up to 4 roll @1 against up to four planes vs 2 roll @2.

Or 2 AAAs (6 IPCs) have a similar combat point value: up to 4 points compared to 1 single Fg (A2 D2 C6) = 4 points too.

Also, one 3 IPCs AAA can be a defensive match with a single Infantry which roll each combat round:
Up to 2 roll @1 against up to two planes vs 1 roll @2.

I don’t know if I should forfeit the preemptive strike (from original OOB rule for AAA) to make it a regular roll like any other unit. That way the AAA combat rule would be:

ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY A0 D0 NCM1 Cost 3, 1 hit,
Fire up to 2 regular defense @1 against up to 2 planes each combat round.
Stop any blitz, but cannot defend itself against enemy’s ground units.

Do you believe that preemptive strike is a necessary ingredient for a defensive unit such as AAA?

[Black_Elk]

Honestly the thing that annoys me more than anything else about the AAAGUN is the movement restriction to Non Combat. It makes the unit very difficult to maneuver effectively on the map, and especially across the water. If making an HR adjustment I’d prefer if it worked like every other unit, ie able to move during the combat phase.

[Argothair]

The thing that annoys me more than anything else about AAA guns is that they are only better than infantry when defending against an enormous stack of planes. If you spend 15 IPCs on 5 infantry, you get 5 HP and 10 defensive pips that roll in every round of combat. If you spend 15 IPCs on 3 AAA guns, you get 3 HP and 9 defensive pips that roll in only the first round of combat, but that have the potential to eliminate enemy planes before those planes can score hits against you. So the question is, how many hits would they have to score against you to even up that gap? At least 2 hits (since you can use your extra 2 infantry as ‘fodder’ and still come out ahead), and probably 3 hits unless your opponent is strafing (because the infantry’s ability to keep on rolling dice will let them pull ahead in ‘total’ defensive value as the battle goes on even if the advantage is to the AAA gun on the first round of combat).

So the break-even point for AAA guns is somewhere around an attack by 6 ftr OR 2 ftr, 3 bmbr. No matter how many AAA guns you pile into a territory, your opponent can still profitably attack you with ground forces supported by 3-4 planes. That’s really stupid.

If you have really dense flak coverage, a territory should become a death trap for planes, and even if you only have one AAA gun in a territory, it should be able to trade itself very profitably against attacking planes.

Mechanically, to make that happen, I would say get rid of the pre-emptive strike ability – it’s unnecessarily fussy and it’s too hard to predict. Instead, just give each AAA gun a single combat die that hits on rolls of 4 or less, but the die can only be applied to hit (and must be applied to hit) attacking enemy planes. That way the AAA gun packs a noticeably stronger defensive punch than infantry for the price (5 IPCs), but is weaker on HP and is useless for anything other than deterring aerial attacks.

Conveniently, this new AAA unit would cripple the ‘light trading’ tactic that currently serves as the lynch pin of orthodox strategy on the 1942.2 map. Planes really, really don’t want to trade lightly against territories with AAA guns.

Note that even though this makes AAA guns much stronger than they are now, they can still be overwhelmed with a large enough air force. Suppose Germany is attacking with 1 inf, 1 art, 5 ftr and Russia is defending with 3 inf, 1 AAA. Germany rolls an expected 3.1 hits, versus Russia’s expected 1.8 hits. Germany loses 1 inf and 1 ftr (-13 IPC). Russia will have to lose 2 inf, 1 AAA (-11 IPC) because if it loses 3 infantry then Germany could retreat the planes and mop up with the artillery unit, which can’t be hit by AAA guns because it’s not a plane. In the next round of combat, Germany attacks with 1 art, 4 ftr for a virtually guaranteed hit, and Russia attacks with 1 inf for 0.3 hits. Germany loses another one-third of a fighter (-3 IPC) and Russia loses another infantry (-3 IPC). Germany seizes the territory (+2 IPC), and so the TUV exchange for the battle is even (14 net IPCs lost for each side).

[baron Münchhausen]

This is a very different way of seeing AAA unit which can increase its usefulness and add a few interesting defensive tactics.

@Baron:

@piscolar:

Good thoughts Barney, thanks for sharing. Never played NWO (actually just looked it up now). I considered something similar in my initial brainstorming but I really want to involve the tactical element: thinking of Fortifications like bases for ground units, rather than ground units themselves.

One old idea to make AAA unit more interesting was this little tweak, which can represents fortified hardpoints, is to make it a 2 hits unit:
Anti-Aircraft Artillery
Attack 0
Defense 0, 1 @1 preemptive, up to three planes, 1 per plane max.
NCM 1
Hits 2, auto-repaired after combat
Cost 5
In addition, if no combat unit is with it, then it is auto-destroy, per OOB rule.

For 15 IPCs, you get 3 regular hits, 3 buffer hits, and up to 9 preemptive strike @1 on aircraft.
With Infantry, it is 5 hits and 10 defense points, but you loose 3 units on first casualties.

An additional ability to figure Atlantic Wall and Siegfried Line can be that when attacked, you may roll 1 defense @1 of preemptive fire on ground unit attacking per AAA unit.

Another possibility can be this:
Anti-Aircraft Artillery as Fortifications
Attack 0
Defense 1, up to three preemptive roll @1, against up to three units, ground or plane, 1 per attacking unit max.
NCM 1
Hits 2, auto-repaired after combat
Cost 5
The one time preemptive roll can simulate the fact that once fortifications are overwhelmed, they can no more use their defensive weapons.

[taamvan]

The only tweak that is necessary to make them viable is to have them fire at planes as they fly over those territories as well.  That way the Axis need guns to cover more squares, and flying entirely across Axis territory becomes much more dangerous.

Even USSR could partially exploit this, so that the germans would have to fly in and out of their SB targets, being exposed to fire x2 x3 more often than under current rules.  Also, the placement of the AAA would be critical to dissuade your enemy so it adds some strategizing to the NCM phase.