I would love to hear more about your Most Precious Soviet Strategies. I love talking about strategy, especially if it’s about my favorite power when it comes to tactical decision making 😀
Does the game need more types of units?
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Do you think there needs to be more options for ground units than just inf, rtl, arm? How about more types of air units than just fighters and bombers? How about more types of naval units? Do you feel that the added complexity and crowdedness on the board from making a wider selection of unit types is worth the advantages? Please answer all questions separately.
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Yea you could say that. here are a few units that should be included:along with the new d12 system Note these are old notes… the values may have changed but the general idea is the same.
Light Infantry/Infantry: Infantry are the standard ground unit. Infantry’s attack is improved by the presence of attacking artillery at a 1/1 basis.
Mechanized Infantry: Are eligible to be dropped as paratroopers by Bombers.
One can be loaded in a regular Bomber, and two can be loaded in a Heavy Bomber. Note: Russia cannot paratroop any units.Guard Mechanized Infantry: Elite Infantry formations of the Russian army.
U.S. Marines, Royal Marines, and Imperial Marines are special types of infantry that only the US, UK and Japanese player may purchase. Marines cost 4 IP and function like infantry, except that on amphibious assaults, they attack with a die roll modification of +1. With each artillery support on the amphibious assault, one Marine attacks with an additional die roll modification of +1 for each combat round.
S.S. Infantry: Germany can create these units and they may be redeployed at the cost of ½ an SR point.
British Commandos: They can only be made by the United Kingdom and represent Special Forces which conduct raids behind enemy lines. They can move across any four spaces including sea zones. Commandos can move during any portion of your turn and may make one attack per turn. If occupied by enemy units, the attacker selects one enemy land or air unit as a target of the raid and gets one roll (attack value of 2). If the target is destroyed it does not get return fire. If the target is not destroyed then all defending units can each fire back but only at a combat value of two. After combat if the Commando has movement points left over it can move or stay. Commandos can control unoccupied enemy territories. If they failed in their mission, the defending player on their own turn can attack using normal combat values.
Light Armor: Each of these units can provide a movement boost to any class 1 Infantry unit that moves less than three and allow it to travel with the Armor up to its movement of 3 at a 1/1 basis.
Armor: Armor units may “blitz†and move into two enemy territories if the first territory is vacant.
Tank destroyer: +4 die modifier against attacks on armored (class 2) units that move at least three spaces (Armor and Tanks). All hits must be taken from defenders class 2 units first.
Heavy Armor: They have increased fighting power than a regular armor unit.
Guards Tank: Russia can build these elite Armor formations.
Panzer Grenadiers: A heavier form of mechanized infantry and can be redeployed at ½ an SR point.
S.S. Panzer Armor: These are the elite armor units of the German Army. Can be redeployed at the cost of ½ an SR point.
Anti-Tank Gun: Provide excellent protection to infantry from most Armor (class 2) units. In combat they can only defend and get one roll for each attacking Armor unit that has a minimum of three movement points (Armor and Tanks). In many respects they perform as an AA gun against Tanks. But unlike them, they can move during either movement phase and secondly, their can be multiple Guns each defending against enemy Armor units. They can be transported by sea and count as “Infantry†for this purpose.
Artillery: All Artillery class units provide infantry support when attacking at a 1/1 basis.
Heavy Artillery: (Germany, Japan and Russia only)
Heavy artillery cost 8 IP each. Heavy artillery attack at 6 and defend at 5.AA Guns: AA guns provide anti-air defense against air attacks on territories and strategic bombing. AA guns may not be destroyed, but they may be captured. AA guns may only be moved in non- combat.
Air Units:
During Returning Air Movement, all air units move again to return to their territory or carrier of origin. All air units may then change air bases during the Base Change sequence.Fighters: Fighters may escort bombers and naval units, intercept air and naval units, and provide coastal and strategic air defense. They can also land and take off from Carriers.
Torpedo Bombers: Torpedo Bombers have similar capabilities as normal fighters. In addition, up to three planes may be based on super-carriers. Two planes can be based on regular carriers and one plane can be based on a light carrier. However, when launching from carriers, the range is reduced to two during combat movement. Torpedo Bombers cost less than fighters, but attack and defend at a lower die roll (because they represent a smaller number of aircraft). However, against naval units only, Torpedo Bombers attack at a die roll of 6 and defend at a die roll of 8.
Dive Bomber: Available to Germany and is just like the Torpedo Bomber, but attacks Ground Units with the attack bonus rather than naval units (attacks at 6 and defends at 8 against land units). These planes can land on carriers but attack at the lower values against naval or air units.
Bombers: Bombers cost 24 IP each. They attack twice on rolls of 8 or less and can carry one paratrooper Bombers may perform strategic bombing, intercept naval units, Paratroop Mechanized Infantry and provide coastal defense. Against air units, Bombers’ attack and defense is reduced to a die roll of two, while Heavy Bombers are reduced to four. Bombers cannot land on Carriers.
Naval Units:
All naval units may move to or change naval bases during the Strategic Redeployment sequence (in non-combat).Super-Battleship: Available to Japan, Germany, UK and USA (turn 10). Has superior firepower to any ship and can attack with both a primary and secondary attack factor and takes three hits to sink them. They have a one shot “shore bombardment†attack and provide infantry support during amphibious assaults during the first round of combat. They can be repaired while in port if damaged for IP equal to a single die roll (one d12).
Battleships/Battlecruisers: They also attack with both a primary and secondary attack factor and can also have a “shore bombardment†attack and provide infantry support during amphibious assaults during the first round of combat. Also, they take 2 hits before being sunk and can be repaired while in port if damaged for IP equal to a single die roll (one d12). Only UK, Japan and Germany can build Battlecruisers.
Hybrid Battleship / Carrier: Available to Japan only, and was a specialized Battleship that was retrofitted to carry a small number of aircraft. It can provide shore bombardment and carry one plane and takes two hits to sink.
Pocket Battleship: Available to Germany only and has a one hit capacity. They can attack with both a primary and secondary guns. Otherwise performs the same as a regular Battleship.
Aircraft Carriers:
Up to three planes may be based on Super Carriers. Two planes can be based on Carriers and one plane can be based on a Light Carrier. Super/ Regular Carriers take two hits to sink, while a Light Carrier takes just one.Light carriers: They have the capacity for one Dive-Bomber, Torpedo-Bomber or Fighter.
Heavy Cruisers: Both have a one shot “shore bombardment†attack and provide infantry support during amphibious assaults during the first round of combat.
Light Cruisers: They are excellent support ships but cannot provide shore bombardment shots.
Destroyers: Destroyers can move 5 spaces and also negate the surprise 1st shot from submarines. Note: they do not negate super submarines 1st shot however. In normal naval combat against surface ships, if a transport is sunk any Infantry (class 1) units that were cargo can be rescued at the rate of one unit per escort.
Escorts: Are an effective protection to transport convoys as follows: All enemy submarines must first engage them prior to attacking transports. Submarines do not get a surprise shot against escorts ( Super Subs do however).In normal naval combat against surface ships, if a transport is sunk any Infantry units that were cargo can be rescued at the rate of one unit per escort.
Submarines: Attacking subs have a 1st shot “surprise attack†against naval units, unless defending Destroyers or Escorts are present. Losses are applied immediately; lost units do not get to shoot back. Submarines cannot attack air units, nor can air units attack submarines without Destroyers (except UK and USA starting turn 9).Surface ships can only attack subs for one combat round per turn after which the subs can submerge and avoid further combat if they so choose.
Super U-Boats
(Type XXI class U-Boats)
They are not affected by Destroyers or Escorts and always have a surprise first shot. Super Subs cannot be attacked by any enemy ship or planes and those same ships can only defend against Super Sub attacks.Landing Craft: Are used primarily for invasions and can carry up to two infantry class units.
Transports:
Transports have no attack capability. However, transports can move up to 2 sea zones and load up to 2 ground units for amphibious assaults and 3 ground units when transporting to friendly territories. Note that armor units count as 2 for loading purposes. For example, a transport may move a sea zone, pick up an armor unit and infantry unit, move another sea zone, then unload onto another friendly territory or island. An amphibious assault occurs when transports unload ground units into enemy territory. A transport’s movement ends when it unloads.
Ground units may not move before loading into or after unloading from transports. During its turn, a transport may only load units from one territory and may only unload units into one territory. Transports may not load from or unload to an enemy-occupied sea zone, unless all enemy naval units have previously retreated/withdrawn from Naval Combat.
Other Units:Fortifications: Not exactly a combat unit but represents the construction of a fortified defensive position at the cost of two IP to start for the first level, and one additional IP for each level up to a maximum of six .No more than three can be built during a game turn. Each level “adsorbs†one hit during the combat phase which shields defending units from attack. Note: the fortifications only cover the area of the border between two adjacent territories. If an attack is conducted from yet another border from a different direction then the fortification has no effect of that combat. When the last level is reached the fortifications are considered destroyed and the defender must now start removing units that are hit during the combat round. Exceptions: In the 1939 scenario, France starts with a twelve level fortification along the Franco-German border which is removed once France falls. In the 1942 scenario, Germany has a nine level fortification known as the Siegfried line that extends from the Switzerland border to the end of the Belgium border. United Kingdom starts with two full (6) fortifications at Gibraltar and Malta.
Fortresses
These units can be added to any controlled territory for the cost of 10 IP and can defend only with two rolls each combat round with a defense value of 6/6.They “protect†the defending units from direct attack. The units inside the fortress cannot be affected by attacking combat rolls until the fortress is destroyed by a roll of 1-2 only. Once built they cannot move and if destroyed cannot be reused by enemy forces. The maximum number of fortresses is limited to the IP value of the territory and in the case of China is limited to one.Industrial Complexes:
A Major Industrial Complex can build up to 10 units (any type) and 10 Infantry class units.
A Minor Industrial Complex can build up to 5 units (any type) and 5 Infantry.
Note: They cannot be moved except Russia can move each Complex once per game. They cannot be destroyed but only reduced by the use of an Atomic Bomb by the United States (see optional rules). Captured Industrial Complexes can be used to build units on the turn following capture.DEVELOP ADVANCED WEAPONS
Each country may elect to spend a one-time research fee of ten IP for each available advanced weapon. The weapon then becomes available to buy on that players following turn. Weapons that become available on a specific turn can immediately then become available to purchase.
Rail Gun: (Germany only) can conduct one of two forms of attack on ground or naval units in an adjacent territory. They can support friendly units that are attacking and adjacent to the location of the Rail Gun firing twice (e.g. 8/8) each combat round as long as your forces are engaged in battle. An alternative form of attack is to send one “salvo†against adjacent enemy units. In this case, the defending units do not get to fire back. IF enemy units attack a Rail Gun it defends at one roll only (8). Rail Guns can only move by way of Strategic redeployment and cost 1 SR point.
Katyusha Rockets: (Russia only) operates more like artillery and has a devastating attack and better mobility (Note: they do not aid the attack or defense of infantry).
Jet Fighters: (Germany turn 10, U.K. turn 12)
Jet fighters cost 16 IP each. Jet fighters defend on rolls of 10 or less, and have a movement of 4. They can evade any Air interception or AA Gun attack.Jet Bombers: (Germany only turn 12) cannot carry paratroopers but can evade any Air interception or AA Gun attack.
Heavy Bombers
(U.S.A and U.K. only)
Heavy bombers cost 28 IP each. Heavy bombers attack twice on two rolls of 10 or less and can
carry up to two paratroopers. They also move 10 spaces. They defend against air units at 4.V-2 Rockets: (Germany turn 10)
V-2 Rocket launchers cost 8 IP each. They do not provide anti-aircraft defense. Instead, they may launch rocket attacks against enemy Industrial Complexes. They may only move by rail and have a range of four. Each V-2 launcher may launch one rocket attack each turn. Multiple rocket launchers may occupy the same territory and may attack the same target. Hits are scored on rolls of 1-6 and inflict an amount of IP damage equal to what was rolled. Rolls of 7-12 have No Effect. Captured V-2 sites are removed from play and cannot be used by other players.Super U-Boats: (Type XXI class U-Boats)
(Germany turn 7)
Super submarines cost 10 IP each. A super submarine attacks and defends on a die roll of 6 or less and moves at 5. Destroyers or Escorts cannot negate their first shot capabilities. No naval or air unit can directly attack a Super Sub and can only defend against attacks from these units. -
too complicated!!
invent a new game similar to A&A r ….
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i’m with you olver. as you probably know, advanced axis and allies is currently in the process of being designed. unfortunately however, imho larry harris is going the wrong way with it (d12 dice and many more units). perhaps you might want new units as well but you think imps are over the top. i think the game can be cleaned up a lot without increasing the complexity substantially.
i have already come up with a version that should appeal to those who want much greater realism, accuracy and strategy without the clutter and complexity of new units, etc…. i just have to get around making it presentable and uploading it. i’m posing questions like this one in order to get a feel for what people like and what they want to see in the next version. as of now it seems that the only people posting (including other topics than just this) are those people who prefer more units and more complexity. does this mean there would be little to no interest for my type of version if i got around to finally posting it?
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Using a D12 is an upgrade for the game because its more realistic to have values that are different than 1,2,3,4 for every unit. Its totally silly to force every unit value into one of these four catagories. Second , every wargame ever made has ALL the unit types that it covers and this is a strategic level wargame so it should have the types of corps sized units that you would assume participated in the war. We are expecting Larry to produce this game in a few years after his Gaudalcanal game which is due next year. The Advanced project will feature 3 new units (mechanized infantry, Cruisers, and another plane which probably would be a dive- bomber or air transport). The nations will have different values for the units so a German tank is better than a British tank etc. The costs will go way down for the naval units. The map will be 50x30 and be much less “artistic” than previous incarnations. This game will be produced from another company (i will not say who) under a new brand name. Now please you people need to get with the program and accept the games evolution from beer and pretzels to something more substantial.
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of course a d12 die is more ‘realistic’ than a d6 die. by the same logic a d100 die is more realistic than your d12 die. apparently you would like a d100 die? anybody can make tons of changes to the game to make the game more ‘realsitic’, but the whole point is to find a good balance between simplicity and realism. just saying d12 die is more realistic and therefore better is absurd. if you think that the game can stand to be much more complicated by changing the type of dice then that’s your opinion and not something that can be objectively debated.
i like my version of axis and allies to allow me to substitute dice from other games (like monopoly) if i ever happen to lose or misplace my dice. i like my version to allow me to roll 6 infantry at once by picking up 6 d6 die in one hand and rolling them all at the same time.
its more realistic to have values that are different than 1,2,3,4 for every unit. Its totally silly to force every unit value into one of these four catagories.
rolling for either a 1, 2, 3, 4 does not necessitate only 4 categories. a little creativity and a d6 die can do much more then a d 12 die can do. improving the game properly will need creativity to maintain simplicity. brute addition of excessive units and new dice will unarguably create greater realism but likely at the cost of simplicty.
This game will be produced from another company (i will not say who) under a new brand name. Now please you people need to get with the program and accept the games evolution from beer and pretzels to something more substantial.
i love how you threw in ‘i will not say who’ when it wasn’t really needed. if this company doesn’t want to be disclosed that is besides the point here. saying it makes you seem so special. subtle. i like it.
i for one will not ‘get with the program.’ larry harris made the best game ever so i value his opinion more so than those from other people (i will not say who- you like how i threw that in there?), but this does not mean that i will necessarily blindly follow him down this latest endeavor. axis and allies fans are a diverse breed. some say to hell with simplicty, just keep adding to the game until you get what you want. i’m afraid only this fraction of the axis and allies fans will take to this latest version. how large this fraction actually is will be seen in game sales.
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…anybody can make tons of changes to the game to make the game more ‘realsitic’, but the whole point is to find a good balance between simplicity and realism…
You and I speak the same language! This is the best post I ever red at any of the forums in A&A.org !!! :D :D :D
… like my version of axis and allies to allow me to substitute dice from other games (like monopoly) if i ever happen to lose or misplace my dice…
Remember that this also means that I also want to play a game that does not take a Masters degree to understand when it comes to the rules. Simplicity also means lesser units and optional rules that can be added to the game the more experienced the player get! The game is supposed to sell in bigger volumes not just to freaks like the gamyjunkies at A&A.org!
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of course a d12 die is more ‘realistic’ than a d6 die. by the same logic a d100 die is more realistic than your d12 die. apparently you would like a d100 die? anybody can make tons of changes to the game to make the game more ‘realsitic’, but the whole point is to find a good balance between simplicity and realism. just saying d12 die is more realistic and therefore better is absurd. if you think that the game can stand to be much more complicated by changing the type of dice then that’s your opinion and not something that can be objectively debated.
Thats the reason why a D12 becomes the new dice because the d100 is too much and a D6 is too little. You arrive at the truth from a different path and it does not overly complicate the game. NO more stupid lamo infantry attack at 1 , Artillery attack at 2, armor attack at 3, bombers attack at 4 rediculousness! Their is no precidence in any game other than this one where this is this template mental restrictions where every thing is 1,2,3,4 crap and everybody is sheepishly following or brainwashed into this pattern of thinking like a “black avatar of doom” so nobody can go outside the box. Realism and play balance does not equate with the function of bottom line simplicity without regard or respect to History. The game has to simulate the war as it was and if that means a few changes are needed then we have to take that direction.
Secondly, converting the units in your minds will become easier because after all D12 is double the last simplification so we can “plug in” the necessary values w/o too much trouble. D10 was determined that it didnt afford enough of a value to add to the game.rolling for either a 1, 2, 3, 4 does not necessitate only 4 categories. a little creativity and a d6 die can do much more then a d 12 die can do. improving the game properly will need creativity to maintain simplicity. brute addition of excessive units and new dice will unarguably create greater realism but likely at the cost of simplicty.
OMG you cant be serious about this?? oh wait your correct 6 choices are greater than 12 . We can make units attack at 5 and 6… sorry i left out those NM :o :o :roll:
Look here my good man installing a D12 is the best thing for the evolution of the game to the next level. higher numbers does not add complexity… its just another freaking number! So what if we got Bombers attacking at 8 and defending at 3 … what is complicated about that?
i love how you threw in ‘i will not say who’ when it wasn’t really needed. if this company doesn’t want to be disclosed that is besides the point here. saying it makes you seem so special. subtle. i like it.
In not sure im supposed to be exposing what we are doing with Larry on his site… but i AM telling you what was allready decided upon and posted on the site. Other information may not cleared with others. So i dont have permission here to tell you everything i know. Im sorry i hurt your feelings and you werent around for those discussions on that site. If you want to get petty we can easily end this discourse—
but this does not mean that i will necessarily blindly follow him down this latest endeavor
You can do what you please …this project will be appealing this time to people who play “WARGAMES”. The family game concept is not as relevant and people want something more. And that is why we both are debating this issue while others spend ungodly amounts of time coming up with NA’s and different ideas and games out of this need… Axis and Allies miniatures uses a D10 is i am not mistaken and its directed to people who dont drink beer and eat pretzels all day. I suggest we both go on a diet and expect a better tomorrow or the franchise will slowly die with redundancy–
P.S. 3 new units is not too many complex changes to a game that gave us destroyers and artillery from a/a europe… Did you cry then too that the game was too complicated?? :o :roll: :wink:
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Quote:
rolling for either a 1, 2, 3, 4 does not necessitate only 4 categories. a little creativity and a d6 die can do much more then a d 12 die can do. improving the game properly will need creativity to maintain simplicity. brute addition of excessive units and new dice will unarguably create greater realism but likely at the cost of simplicty.OMG you cant be serious about this?? oh wait your correct 6 choices are greater than 12 . We can make units attack at 5 and 6… sorry i left out those NM
opening fire subs are better than subs without opening fire, but they attack at the exact same number. this seems like an example of another choice other then the simple 1,2,3,4,5 and 6 to me. since you’re too smart to have skipped over this obvious example, i must be wrong. there has to be only 6 possible attack/defend categories. yep, only 6. impossible to have any others.
Look here my good man installing a D12 is the best thing for the evolution of the game to the next level. higher numbers does not add complexity… its just another freaking number! So what if we got Bombers attacking at 8 and defending at 3 … what is complicated about that?
repeat: i like my version of axis and allies to allow me to substitute dice from other games (like monopoly) if i ever happen to lose or misplace my dice. i like my version to allow me to roll 6 infantry at once by picking up 6 d6 die in one hand and rolling them all at the same time.
In not sure im supposed to be exposing what we are doing with Larry on his site… but i AM telling you what was allready decided upon and posted on the site. Other information may not cleared with others. So i dont have permission here to tell you everything i know. Im sorry i hurt your feelings and you werent around for those discussions on that site. If you want to get petty we can easily end this discourse—
i think my internet must be broken cause my internet lets me go to that highly-classified site as well. oh wait, it’s not broken, everyone’s internet can do that. by the way, for anyone interested in also participating in the ‘privledged’ discussions impy is talking about you can go to http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB2/ it’s a great site but like impy said, don’t go exposing what you are doing with larry on his site to those people whose internet doesn’t allow them to access that site. shhhh…
you can presume whatever you want as to my identity, level of involvement and knowledge of upcoming projects. it amuses me. please continue to do so.
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opening fire subs are better than subs without opening fire, but they attack at the exact same number. this seems like an example of another choice other then the simple 1,2,3,4,5 and 6 to me. since you’re too smart to have skipped over this obvious example, i must be wrong. there has to be only 6 possible attack/defend categories. yep, only 6. impossible to have any others.
we are not talking about HOW the units interact … only the volume of choices given with a d6 are exactly 1/2 a d12 while any other configuration is too much or too little. Did you ignore that?
repeat: i like my version of axis and allies to allow me to substitute dice from other games (like monopoly) if i ever happen to lose or misplace my dice. i like my version to allow me to roll 6 infantry at once by picking up 6 d6 die in one hand and rolling them all at the same time.
I am truly sorry your hand is too small to carry 6 D12 dice … perhaps you can use two hands?? agains rolling them at the same time?? geez.
think my internet must be broken cause my internet lets me go to that highly-classified site as well. oh wait, it’s not broken, everyone’s internet can do that. by the way, for anyone interested in also participating in the ‘privledged’ discussions impy is talking about you can go to http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB2/ it’s a great site but like impy said, don’t go exposing what you are doing with larry on his site to those people whose internet doesn’t allow them to access that site. shhhh…
I was commenting on what is NOT printed on the site but from other channels. Please read before such rubbish flows. And please stay on topic we are talking about the advanced game concept and not your petty issues.
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we are not talking about HOW the units interact … only the volume of choices given with a d6 are exactly 1/2 a d12 while any other configuration is too much or too little. Did you ignore that?
this will be my last post on this issue because impy just doesn’t get it and i don’t think he will from me. i will give 1 last shot at it however.
you are arguing that the total ‘volume of choices’ is 6. right? could you please list these choices from strongest attack/defend value to leakest? i think the answer should clearly be 6,5,4,3,2 then 1. a normal sub (no opening fire) attacks/defends at a 2 so it would fall into the ‘2’ category. this is between the 3 and the 1 on our list of the choices from strongest to weakest. now, since this is apparently the total volume of all attack/defend choices on a d6 die, where does the opening fire sub fall? opening fire sub is stronger than a 2 so it has to fall in a category listed before 2 in our list. if an opening fire 2 isn’t exactly as strong as rolling a 3 or 4, say, then there should be another category. this is only logical since a unit with an attack/defense value different from 1 of those 6 listed must be in a category different from 1 of those listed. you do the math and tell me if rolling a 3 is better or worse than rolling an initaial 2 and get back to me. i don’t know how to say it any clearer so i am done.
impy, next time just say “This game will be produced from another company under a new brand name.” or even as far as “This game will be produced from another company under a new brand name who wishes to remain anonymous.” when you say ‘(i will not say who)’ you are obvously going well out of your way to try to sound important. that, my friend is petty. you can go ahead and keep on trying to convince people how all-important you are if it makes you feel better about yourself but please allow me my right to humiliate you when you do. i wouldn’t want other viewers to be misguided by your such tactics. i’m sure you will write at least 1 more post attempting to get in the last word on this issue and when you do i hope that will be the end of this in this topic. it will be for me.
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impy just doesn’t get it …
…if an opening fire 2 isn’t exactly as strong as rolling a 3 or 4, say, then there should be another category. this is only logical since a unit with an attack/defense value different from 1 of those 6 listed must be in a category different from 1 of those listed. you do the math and tell me if rolling a 3 is better or worse than rolling an initaial 2 and get back to me. i don’t know how to say it any clearer so i am done…
… I hope that will be the end of this in this topic. it will be for me.
First of all an opening fire on a 2 could be even stronger than a normal hit on a 3, but not a 4. So you are basically right about thinking creative (extending the die) about using opening fire but wrong to! Well let me do the math for you once again budy:
The cheapest a sub can hit is a piece of unit worth 8 IPCs (lets not think of 2 hit BBs for the ease). The sub will destroy: 2/68 IPCs = 2,67 IPCs
If a transport is picked as a casualty it wont have a chance to return fire. If a sub attack or defend on a 3 it will destroy: 3/68 IPCs = 4 IPCs but the transport may return fire that riskadjusted will cost the player having the sub: 1/6*8 IPCs = 1,33 IPCs. This means that the opening fire attack on a 2 (for subs/naval combat) is at least as good as a sub attack and defend on a 3. That means that an opening fire sub that hit on a 2 is better then a sub hitting on a 3, as long as the enemy pick anything except a transport as a casualty. Ok! You dont need to answer but onle consider your math since I am right here and most of all the fact that you said you wont write anything more in this topic! :wink: However Impy and his pals from Larrys site are smart and some ideas are really nice, but I do agree with you about Impy. He is in a loop of histroric realism and that is just so destructive to this game. I have been there to for some years ago, but come along and finaly find out what you and I are talking about. And that is exactly what Larry have in mind too, according to what have been said from him on his site. Impy just wont get it, right now! -
Anderson:
Let first say that i respect your ideas and what you bring to the game in terms of NA’s which is a welcome solution to fixing play balance issues in revised. I dont share your vision of what the Advanced Axis and Allies concept should be and its definatly not the ideas that Larry has conceptualized so far. He has decided on a D12 system and 3 new units and a whole new approach to submarine rules which resemble a clearly more complex but realistic repair of the “sub stall” issue. The unit values for each nation are different as i have stated to change this 1,2,3,4 stupid stagnation and open up the game to builds that dont focus on only infantry buys. He is also trying to fix piece density issues and try to end the “Infantry push mechanic” that bogs the game down with constant staging of forces with one big battle deciding the fate. He wants smaller more frequent battles. Also Italy is becoming the 6th player so the teams are 3 vs. 3= equal.
I dont know why you and (i will not say his name because im trying to be important) simply keep harping on stupid subs when the discussion is clearly about the need for additional units. The debate then turned into a diatribe about D6 VS. D12 which is a seperate issue. And my point which was never addressed and simply ignored is that d12 has more choices for the differences of the various new unit as we now have 3 more units and its really stagnant to have so many pieces sharing the same values as 1,2,3,4. ( WAIT: STOP! dont think about subs at this point think about tanks, infantry, artillery, fighters, bombers, destroyers, battleships, carriers, and transports as well)…Breath… ok continue
Now thats better to accept that this is not a submarine game only… as the last math wiz was crying about
AS i have stated before these 3 new units (one land, sea,and air) compliment the family of pieces. This action is not without precedent: Axis and Allies Europe gave us two more pieces and nobody cried then did you? did duck? . No exactly! and you will accept 3 more units the very same way whether you like it or not.
We have to make progress which means improvements to the game which adds complexity. This is a fact you must accept because it is what is coming out whether you buy or not.Other points about the game:
1)fixes for retreats
2)new naval and ground combat system including die modifiers for combinations of attacking units.
3) more Air Missions
4) Optional rules covering the terrain and /or weather
5) paratroopers
6) victory point system with alot more cities
7) return of something similiar to convoy boxes and a viable submarine economic attack rules
8) larger map realistic terrain features
9) Some changes on unit colors
10) no more AA guns-- deleated piece(IC will have a basic AA roll built in)
11) increased movement and strategic redeploymentagain you can find this from larrys site. Sorry we have made the game too complex for you chaps. keep playing revised then and enjoy that… Just dont drink and play the Advanced game at the same time when it does come out because we need your mind to be fresh for new changes on the horizon–
question off topic :why does the number eight = 8) ? what is this? is their a flaw in the program?
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@Imperious:
… We have to make progress which means improvements to the game which adds complexity. This is a fact you must accept because it is what is coming out whether you buy or not.
Other points about the game:
1.)fixes for retreats
2.)new naval and ground combat system including die modifiers for combinations of attacking units.
3.) more Air Missions
4.) Optional rules covering the terrain and /or weather
5.) paratroopers
6.) victory point system with alot more cities
7.) return of something similiar to convoy boxes and a viable submarine economic attack rules
8.) larger map realistic terrain features
9.) Some changes on unit colors
10.) no more AA guns-- deleated piece(IC will have a basic AA roll built in)
11.) increased movement and strategic redeploymentI will love this game but I dont think it wil be a volume game like the original A&A or RISK. There is something you dont get and that is that I want to make this game as simple as possible without turning it into a new risk, just a bit more advanced. The reason is that the game would be easier for new players to lern and enjoy. The advanced variant might be too much for people to lern if not being extremly interested in WWII or advaced strategy games. That population is very small. Then we have those who are super freaks like you and me! We will love that game, but I wont have many pals to play it with. The big solution for such a game is a PC-variant, not a game board!!! Then I will go wild and crazy for it, since it will be easy to find players on the internet! Until then it is important for me to try to make the A&AR better and more simple, the complexity should just be optional rules. By the way I solved your problem with the 8.) :wink:
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I will love this game but I dont think it wil be a volume game like the original A&A or RISK. There is something you dont get and that is that I want to make this game as simple as possible without turning it into a new risk, just a bit more advanced. The reason is that the game would be easier for new players to lern and enjoy. The advanced variant might be too much for people to lern if not being extremly interested in WWII or advaced strategy games. That population is very small. Then we have those who are super freaks like you and me! We will love that game, but I wont have many pals to play it with. The big solution for such a game is a PC-variant, not a game board!!! Then I will go wild and crazy for it, since it will be easy to find players on the internet! Until then it is important for me to try to make the A&AR better and more simple, the complexity should just be optional rules. By the way I solved your problem with the 8.)
1)which game are you refering too revised or Advanced axis and allies?
2)The game is to appeal to a new breed of “wargamers” who do buy every concievable game of this genre. The previous niche was catered to possible preteens who might trick their friends into playing a real wargame while they can just roll dice and drink beer…belch… latter to realize its just like risk with a few more pieces that look better. Latter in the lean years we saw this game removed from toys R us and wallmart stores because these “familys” of 4 dudes drinking beer started playing something more substantial, while the comic book game standard known as “eagle games” started putting out some games that pushed the envolope still further. Now since this game has no family voice left in it, we address the target buyers as more sophisticated wargamers who love the aesthetic appeal of a strategic game with miniatures. After all this game would have died long ago with those nova game counters (which i bought back in 1980).Thus succinctly the game will evolve into something more creative and complex offering greater volume of choices and responsibilities for each player while enhancing the aesthetics with better quality production values and a commitment to Historical realism. That is why by commitee we are helping Larry with this game. Please join our site just leave your Mr. Duck back home.
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There was a game named “Champs d’Honneur” produced some years ago in Québec (Canada). It was similar to A&A Europe but had almos all the types of units dercribed at the begiining. Plus you couldn’t make alliances with different countyries, invad neutral ones etc etc. Very very long to learn. very very few buyers… so it’s no produced anymore.
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You mean bells of war?
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