Weapons Developement?

[Gargantua]

@Uncrustable:

I really like research facilities
I’m guessing they have similar health and rules in regards to SBR as do naval/air bases?
1 per territory maximum?
Can build anywhere?
Can they be built before a power is at war? (USA would plop down a few on its first turn so that as soon as its at war it rolls the dice)

Exactly the same as any other facility, and like any other facility, can be built before the war.

[gamerman01]

@Strikers:

I am just wondering if anyone invests in weapons developement?

I do

Which powers they choose to invest with,

I usually play Allies, so USSR, USA, UK

gradually one or two dice at a time, or all at once?

Usually gradually, usually 1 die at a time.  Almost always roll one with USA.

Anyone bother at all outside of messing around after you clearly have the advantage?

Absolutely - this is one of the best times to roll tech.  When I get ahead and know I’m going to win, it is not risky to buy tech because I can afford to lose the money.  But when I hit them, it’s more fun for me AND I can win faster.  This is actually one of the main reasons I like to play with tech in games.  It helps the player who is ahead to win faster and end the misery quicker.  This was more true in AA50 than in G40.  AA50 games could drag on for a long time without tech.

Garg mentioned early LRA or heavy bombers is amazing with the USA, and he is right.  Other terrific techs:

LRA for anybody

German/Italian rockets
German/Italian paratroopers
German increased production
German jets
German radar
German heavy bombers
German super subs on G1 (and could be good at other times as well)

Russian paratroopers
Russian advanced artillery
Russian radar (would be rare to roll this chart tho - but maybe for a desperate defense when the big attack on Moscow is imminent?)

et cetera

Rockets are particularly amazing because of their ability to go 4 spaces and to hit bases.  Note that you may target the same facility with more than one rocket attack at a time (a subtle and unheralded change between the time of OOB and 2nd edition).
I’m in a game where my Gibraltar naval base was disabled 3 straight times by the Germans, and so the Americans could not go 3 spaces from 91/92 on their turn.
Since there are interceptor rules now, and because there is AA defense 100% of the time, SBR’s are riskier and more difficult than ever before, on average.  Rockets present a 100% chance of hitting a facility every single turn.  It takes 3 damage to disable a base, but again, you can target a base with more than one rocket.  If you target a base with 2 rockets, there is only 1/36 chance that it will not be disabled (snake eyes).

People who say tech is a waste of money often overlook various considerations/factors.  One of them is that once you get a couple of techs, you have a much greater chance of knowing what tech you will get next.  Of course, once you have 5 techs on a chart, you know for sure what your next one will be.  We call that “buying” (LRA, heavy bombers, whatever it is) even though of course there is a chance you will not roll a 6.
Another is the surprise factor.  Especially if you have not been buying it.  Like Cow said, a good time for a big tech buy is right before a big attack.  Your opponent is probably not prepared for the LRA or jets or Heavy bombers or paratroopers, and you get to use them immediately, before your opponent can do anything about it.  This can be a game winner.  Tech is not for the faint of heart.  
Tech adds a whole ‘nother dimension to the game, including a lot more strategy.  I simply don’t agree with players who say tech is all about luck.  If tech is all about luck, then A&A is all about luck, because every time you attack enemy units you have to roll dice and get the right results to win the battle.  The only thing that is for sure is that if you don’t invest any IPC’s in tech…… well… you ain’t gettin’ any breakthroughs.

[theROCmonster]

There are two problems with tech.

1. You pay 5 IPC’s worth of income for a 16.67% chance to hit.
2. There is only a 16.67% chance of getting what you really wanted after you hit the first 16.67% to get to the tech tree.

So 1/6 * 1/6= 1/36 chance of hitting what you really wanted.

[Derek]

@theROCmonster:

There are two problems with tech.

1. You pay 5 IPC’s worth of income for a 16.67% chance to hit.
2. There is only a 16.67% chance of getting what you really wanted after you hit the first 16.67% to get to the tech tree.

So 1/6 * 1/6= 1/36 chance of hitting what you really wanted.

This is where research tokens and/or research facilities come in
Also I believe your understanding of tech rolls is incorrect according to the rules, you only have to roll 1 ‘6’ then you simple roll to see what tech you get

[knp7765]

What theROCmonster is saying is if you want a certain tech, then you have a 1/36 chance.

First you have a 1/6 chance of even getting a “6”. Then, say you really, really want Heavy Bombers. Again, you have another 1/6 chance of getting that specific tech. Sure Long Range Aircraft or Jet Fighters are good techs, but if you are really going bomber heavy, even those won’t do you a lot of good if your enemy is relatively close or you don’t have a lot of attacking fighters.

[KimRYoung]

Well, how about just putting an IPC value on each technology and allow it to be purchased?

Then put a random (die roll) time frame from the time of purchase to when you actually get the R&D complete. Things like paratroopers you could get much sooner then rockets or jets.

This way you can “invest” in what you want, but you may not get it right away.

Certain techs should be much more expensive then others, like 10 IPCs for Paratroopers and 30 IPcs for Rockets.

Kim

[Gargantua]

I like to use tech to “bluff”.

It’s not a 16.67% chance, because by the fact that I choose to “roll” a die every turn, it’s enough to make my opponent triple check all his units, and play more conservatively in the event I get LRA, or HB, or Jet fighters, or whatever, and cripple his forces.

Even blitzing mechanized infantry can be a big problem.

Yes the theoretical odds of achieving tech are quite low, but, having your opponent account for those odds, is almost as good as having your opponent treat you as if you already have the tech.

And of course… the more tech you get, the more dangerous this game becomes for the man across from you.

It also helps when you “kindly” advertise “If I get LRA this turn, you will lose all 8 of those transports… just saying”

Tech is a game in itself, and you have to use “Threat Projection” to it’s maximum.

There’s nothing quite like those invisible units that you can magically summon from the realm of possibilities.

Ask Canuck12 about this experience…

[Witt]

You evil man Garg!

[gamerman01]

@Gargantua:

It also helps when you “kindly” advertise “If I get LRA this turn, you will lose all 8 of those transports… just saying”

Evil is not “kindly” advertising at all….  and just pasting the 8 transports when your opponent didn’t even think about the possibility of LRA…
Of course, advertising the fact gets you something for nothing if it causes them to change their movements…

But he made my point in a different (and probably clearer) way!  It’s not just getting the actual tech that gives you power, it’s the very threat of tech that gives it value.  And if you’re buying some regularly, your opponent has to worry about you getting any one of 12 different techs, and that’s a headache in a game of this scope

[Seador]

I like tech for a change, but I favor the tech token over pure random.

In face to face play, tech makes the game alot more fun, especially when you play the same people over and over.  On the boards, I’m less in favor of it for league play because of the limited number of games ina  series.

[allweneedislove]

@Strikers:

I am just wondering if anyone invests in weapons developement? Which powers they choose to invest with, gradually one or two dice at a time, or all at once? Anyone bother at all outside of messing around after you clearly have the advantage?

“investing” in weapons development is a bad strategy. there are rare scenarios whereby it is a tactic, but is still an overall bad strategy.

it is a shame that techs were made so useless. rolling for tech is fun and can add variety to games but they have a high cost to reward ratio.

i agree with pgmatt. i really wish the game used the anniversary style tech tokens.

i had written up a long winded opus on why technology is a bad strategic investment a few years ago before any revisions were made to global40. the theory still holds true.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=20330.0

[Larrie]

Our gang has a house rule, we use the tech tokens like AA50, then after you roll your 6 to get a tech, you can target the tech you want. Each turn you get one roll to see if you develope the tech or not. This way it is not as random, and it may still take some time to roll the one you are hoping to get.

[knp7765]

@Larrie:

Our gang has a house rule, we use the tech tokens like AA50, then after you roll your 6 to get a tech, you can target the tech you want. Each turn you get one roll to see if you develope the tech or not. This way it is not as random, and it may still take some time to roll the one you are hoping to get.

Dang that’s a good idea. We use the tech tokens but just to roll for the breakthrough. You have expanded it. I think it would be much better to keep your token and roll each turn for the tech you want rather than just rolling the one time and getting something that is next to useless to you.

[atease]

The tech rule is kinda silly. I mean, if a country wants to improve the efficiency of its shipyars, it’s going to invest massively in improved shipyards. Why the hell would he suddenly out of nowhere develop a technology that would improve the range of it’s aircrafts?

IMO people should roll for breakthrough but call in advance which techs they are going for.

I’ve once played a variant of Axis and Allies (heavily modified game using a custom map but A&A units) that you had to pay for technologies. Each tech has it’s own price and usually a secondary technology that you could research after the first one. For example, you could develop long range fighters, then long-range bombers.

Say the long-range fighter tech costs 8 IPC. You have FIRST to spend those 8 IPCs, then you are allowed to spend 5 IPC to research it. You could also overspend by up to 2 IPC and get a +2 to roll your tech, so you could spend 10 IPC on long-range fighters, then buy a chance for 5 IPC and get the tech on a roll of 1, 2, 3.

in that game, people actually bought and researched tech. everything has it’s price, you know what you’re getting, but there’s always the chance that you don’t get the tech you want if you don’t roll it. You could also steal techs, but I forget the details.

I could see houseruling something like that

[Derek]

Would work where instead of rolling for a six, and them rolling again to see what tech you get…
You decide what tech you want and them roll for it,
Example if you want heavy bombers and roll a 5 you fail because you needed a six, but if you had been rolling for long range aircraft them the 5 would give you it

[knp7765]

@atease:

IMO people should roll for breakthrough but call in advance which techs they are going for.

That would be more realistic, plus save a step in the tech process. Instead of paying for dice/tokens, rolling for a 6, then rolling to see which tech you get, you simply pay for dice, call out the tech and roll however many dice you paid for. If you don’t get that number, then try again next round. If you do, then YAY!

[Makoshark13]

Or, if you roll a 1 you get to choose anything from the first breakthrough chart, and if you roll a 2 you choose anything off of the second chart.

[KimRYoung]

Maybe the answer is to simply reverse the order in which you roll for the research and development. At the start of your turn pick the chart you want, roll a die and see what technology breakthrough you will get if you invest.

IE, your scientists make you a proposal of what they intend to develop. Now once you know what you will get, you determine how many dice you want to roll to get that technology. If its something you don’t want or need, you don’t have to roll at all. If it’s something you really covet, then you can “invest” lots of dice into the roll to make the breakthrough more likely.

This does not change the overall chance to get anything, but no government would be wasting a large portion of its budget to have their scientist come up with Paratroopers, where as a proposal for Jets or Super Subs would likely see a considerable number of dice rolled.

If your scientist come to you with the idea for Rockets, now you have to decide will you put a lot into this development this turn (die roll)? if you do and still don’t get it you could bust your budget or if you pass (don’t pay for a die roll) next turn you will likely not have the opportunity again.

After all, you don’t go out and spend money on lottery tickets not knowing how much the jackpot is worth. With this method you will see more technology attempts since you will know what your going to get!

What U think?

Kim

[gamerman01]

Very innovative idea, Kim

I like it better than “targeted tech”, i.e. picking whatever one you want and trying to roll a 6 ala Revised edition

One side effect…  Your method entices powers to gamble more money on average, I would think.  I think it would make luck even greater in tech rolls, because you’ll more often have powers rolling multiple dice.  Also, you will probably have more tech in your games, which will make them more volatile, but maybe this is what you want.

By the way, paratroopers ROCK

[knp7765]

Hey KimRYoung,
We have been using your suggestion for tech in the last couple of our games and it works fantastic. We haven’t tried it in Global 40 yet, we played a couple of games of Anniversary so there was just the 6 countries. In the first game, everybody had some tech. Even Russia and Italy each had one.
In the second game, Germany ended up with 4, Japan and USA each had 3 and Britain had 1. Russia was taken out too early to get any and even though Italy did pretty well, they kept rolling stuff they didn’t want to invest in or when they did, they just couldn’t get a 6. Poor luck.
It’s so cool seeing what you might get then deciding whether or not to invest. Much better than the old way. Thanks for the great idea.