Handling of Subs in TripleA

[Panther]

Veqryn, in the Global1940 2nd Ed. FAQ thread, the following issue came to my attention:

@Gamerman01:

@Cow:

sub destroyer…. vs  sub destroyer…

Do attacker and defender subs always roll first? Makes sense to me because subs can only hit naval. However if the defender sub hits the attacker has to figure out what he wants to lose, he would still roll it to attack but he has to figure out what he loses before the rest of the dice gets rolled.

What is the official ruling kreig?

A sub and destroyer against a sub and a destroyer:

Neither sub has surprise strike capability because of opposing destroyers present.

General Combat Sequence
1. Place units along the battle strip
2. Submarine surprise strike or submerge
3. Attacking units fire (and defender must choose casualties)
4. Defending units fire (attacker chooses casualties and removes them)
5. Remove defender’s casualties
6. Press attack or retreat
7. Conclude combat

This is straight from the rulebook.  Obviously since the subs do not have surprise strike or submerge capabilities, you would skip step 2.
So the answer to your question is NO the subs do not always roll first.

Triple A does this dead wrong.  Is that why you’re wondering?  The attacker should NEVER have to choose casualties before seeing his own attack roll when he has destroyers present to nullify the defending subs’ surprise strikes.

You might have to roll out such battles using the forum dice roller and use edit mode to force the correct results in TripleA.

I had that happen to me in a recent G1.  Destroyer, cruiser, bomber vs. 2 subs.  Triple A makes you choose casualties before you see how many hits you score.  This is wrong.  The attacker does not choose casualties until step 4, and gets to see his attack roll in step 3.

If you are already aware of it don’t continue reading. If not please continue reading.

The problem is that in TripleA subs always roll at first  - even if there are destroyers present cancelling the surprise strike ability.
Forcing either side to take out hits scored by subs is not correct - as subs roll together with other warships then and casualties should not be taken after all rolls are done.
I attached an image to illustrate the issue. In this case Germany is forced to take out a unit not knowing if the German destroyer will hit.
The attacker’s choice what to take out would be dependent on the defender’s choice. And the defender - according to the rules - has to choose at first.

According to the rules the German submarine and destroyer would shoot together. UK chooses casualties and fires back (sub+des). Germany chooses casualties.

Do we have to live with that issue or can this be corrected in TripleA?

[Veqryn]

If the enemy has a destroyer, they get to fire back, which triplea does correctly.
I guess the only issue is not seeing what else the other player rolls before selecting your casualties.  A very minor issue, unless you are in a tournament and anal about that sort of thing.

Sadly, this one would be rather tough to fix, and very time consuming.  I guess I need to run another donation drive.

[Panther]

OK

Or maybe it is just an matter of the battle sequence.

Like

If a submarine (either attacking or defending) is not facing an enemy destroyer then roll it like “it actually is in TripleA”.

If a submarine (either attacking or defending) is facing an enemy destroyer then roll it together with the other ships belonging to the submarine’s nation (if there are any) in the regular battle step.

I don’t know if that makes it easier, though.

[Zhukov44]

Subs rolling separately is a minor issue in low luck games.  If you have 1 ss 1 dd 2 bb against a fleet with a dd–the total punch is 12, but it’s quite possible to only get 1 hit.  It would be an improvement if subs are lumped in with the gross total in that scenario (eg only if the enemy has a dd that negates the surprise shot).