AA Guns

[Jennifer]

I’d say, if you limit AA Guns to 1 shot every round there exists a legal target for them to shoot at, then I wouldn’t add any other rules or restrictions.  I think it’s really balanced at that point.  This, of course, still assumes you can choose to destroy the AA Gun as you would any other unit you are assigning damage too.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

I’d say, if you limit AA Guns to 1 shot every round there exists a legal target for them to shoot at, then I wouldn’t add any other rules or restrictions. I think it’s really balanced at that point.  This, of course, still assumes you can choose to destroy the AA Gun as you would any other unit you are assigning damage too.

Are you are talking about this option?
Option 3:
Each AAA gun would get up to 1 shot/1 plane (whichever is less)  every round.
Which is 3.5 more killer than OOB? :evil:

I think I’m (or my friends playing A&A are) more conservative.
I found option 4 a lesser killer with a 2.5 times killing rate of OOB.   8-)

I wasn’t talking about dice mecanics (as I said earlier, my friends already played with 2 dice rolls mecanics to determine if a target is hit or not.)

My only interrest is to find something near OOB ratio with much more utility and applications (like being able to fire each round).

If it’s true that you like option 3,
I would add this:
The only limitation, after the first round first strike: up to 1 additionnal roll @1 against the same plane for the remaining of the battle.

Following the table below, their is 11 planes remaining after first round.

To keep this rule up:  take dices apart and create a 11 dices pool, for example.

Every time AAA can shoot a plane, pick 1 dice from the pool. When their is no more dice, then AAA shots are over.
This means on the fourth round, their will be no more shots.
So in average, the killing rate is 3 planes (in 4 rounds) it is only 1 over the OOB 2 casualities in the same situation.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 4 planes only:

4 Shots round 1, 1 hit on average (rounding up)   4/0   1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 2, no hit to keep the average:        8/6
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  12/6  1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  16/12 1 plane destroyed

For me, it is the only way to reduce the casuality rate.

If I had choice, with this limitation of 1 roll/plane after first round, I would rather choose:
Option 2:
Each AAA gun would get up to 3 shots per round and 1 shot/rnd after first round.
The casualities could be around 4 planes in 4 rounds. Which is double casuality rate on average.

(Don’t forget that it is still possible that defender had to pick AAA as casuality earlier in the battle.)

Option 2:
Each gun would get up to 3 shots per round and 1 shot/rnd after first round.

After a 4 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns x3 = at 12 planes first time and 10 more individual shots after:

12 Shots round 1, 2 hits on average                    2 planes destroyed
4 Shots round 2, 1hit on average (rounding up)      1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     1 plane destroyed
4 2 Shots round 4, no hit to keep the average

[Jennifer]

No, I am thinking each AA Gun gets 1 shot regardless of how many planes attack, but they get 1 shot per round until there are no planes left in the battle.

[Derek]

@Cmdr:

No, I am thinking each AA Gun gets 1 shot regardless of how many planes attack, but they get 1 shot per round until there are no planes left in the battle.

.

What’s wrong with my idea

AAA are treated as normal unit during normal combat. Hitting on a 1
They still get the 3 preemptive rolls at planes
This follows choose your own casualties

This is very self explainatory IMO

So once a battle begins (after the preemptive 3 AA dice), AAA roll no differently than, say an infantry. Except obviously the AAA hits only on a 1

Does not matter if there are planes or not

[Jennifer]

In my opinion, they get 3 shots in opening fire because they no longer get to participate except as meatshields.  If they get to continue participating, then I feel it is sufficient to limit them to the same number of shots as all other participants: 1 per round.

They are already getting to snipe at the most expensive, highest value pieces on the board.  It’s not like being reduced to 1 shot a round per gun, provided there are valid targets, is going to penalize them.  Heck, before Alpha 3, that’s all they got: 1 shot per attacking plane ONCE per battle.

[Derek]

@Cmdr:

In my opinion, they get 3 shots in opening fire because they no longer get to participate except as meatshields.  If they get to continue participating, then I feel it is sufficient to limit them to the same number of shots as all other participants: 1 per round.

They are already getting to snipe at the most expensive, highest value pieces on the board.  It’s not like being reduced to 1 shot a round per gun, provided there are valid targets, is going to penalize them.  Heck, before Alpha 3, that’s all they got: 1 shot per attacking plane ONCE per battle.

So you agree with me?
It’s not very clear IMO

Also I really think you are looking at my post, then changing what it says and then posting on that and not what I actually said lol

Under my proposal AAA (after preemptive AA rolls) are treated as a normal unit with a roll of 1
So if the AAA rolls a hit in normal combat, that hit does not have to be taken by an aircraft lol

Hopefully by the time you read this you are feeling better ;)

[Jennifer]

Ah, no, I had not seen that you could apply the hit to any unit.

What I am saying is make it a Axis and Allies Classic/Revised/Anniversary AA Gun again, except, it can be taken as a casualty and can fire in the opening fire stage of each round so long as there are attacking planes.  Basically, it gets Submarine Rules applied to it.

No more 3 shots in round 1 opening fire.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

@Cmdr:

No, I am thinking each AA Gun gets 1 shot regardless of how many planes attack, but they get 1 shot per round until there are no planes left in the battle.

.

What’s wrong with my idea?

AAA are treated as normal unit during normal combat. Hitting on a 1
They still get the 3 preemptive rolls at planes
This follows choose your own casualties

This is very self explainatory IMO

So once a battle begins (after the preemptive 3 AA dice), AAA roll no differently than, say an infantry. Except obviously the AAA hits only on a 1.

Does not matter if there are planes or not.

There’s nothing wrong about your idea.
Actually, I like it.
It works almost like a regular unit.
After 1st rnd, on defense @1, it is 50% less effective against any unit than Inf or Art@2.
Can not attack.
Works like an Antiaircraft artillery  division which has is own autonomy which includes some foot soldiers with hands guns to defend those artillery pieces (as you explained).

As I said earlier, I’m just working on a different rationalization of AAA, as essentially fixed AA guns with little mobility and no weapon to hit any ground units. (Since the main guns platforms are ground-to-air nothing else.)
I try to develop around the OOB classic AA which can solely hit planes.
Your help is welcome, to develop a balance AAA unit along this way.

[Jennifer]

Hey, it’s a house rule, you don’t have to take my suggestions, however, I’m all about free, unasked for and sometimes unwanted, advice giving. :P

Heck, it’s better than being yelled at for saying there is no rule prohibiting China from bidding armor or bombers or AA Guns. lol.  I’m sure there will be!

Anyway, been toying with trying to revive Delta rules for G40, a more realistic version of AA Guns might be part of that.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

Ah, no, I had not seen that you could apply the hit to any unit.

What I am saying is make it a Axis and Allies Classic/Revised/Anniversary AA Gun again, except, it can be taken as a casualty and can fire in the opening fire stage of each round so long as there are attacking planes.� Basically, it gets Submarine Rules applied to it.

No more 3 shots in round 1 opening fire.�

No, I am thinking each AA Gun gets 1 shot regardless of how many planes attack, but they get 1 shot per round until there are no planes left in the battle.

You are creating almost a firewall of AAA  :evil: against small group of air support, like 1 or 2 planes.

Example If there is 4 AAA in a territory, 2 planes will get 2 shot @1 against both of them, every round. If it was only 1 plane, it means 4 shots@1. And it is also preemptive, on the first round and even more (according to your last suggestion)!

That’s the main reason to keep this rule: either 1/AAA or 1/plane whichever is less.

It is necessary to limit this snipe against “the most expensive, highest value pieces on the board”.

Even 1 shot every turn is much more powerful than OOB, as I said earlier (a better 3.5 times killing ratio vs OOB ).

[Jennifer]

No, what I am trying to say is that the AA Gun cannot shoot anymore if there are no more attacking planes, whether they were shot down or retreated.  However, it gets 1 shot a round, per AA Gun in the territory being attacked, per attacking aircraft.

So if Germany is attacked and has 3 AA Guns, but there are 15 British fighters attacking, then Germany gets 3 shots a round with the AA Guns until the aircraft are all destroyed, the AA Guns are destroyed or the Aircraft retreat.

[Derek]

@Cmdr:

Ah, no, I had not seen that you could apply the hit to any unit.

What I am saying is make it a Axis and Allies Classic/Revised/Anniversary AA Gun again, except, it can be taken as a casualty and can fire in the opening fire stage of each round so long as there are attacking planes.  Basically, it gets Submarine Rules applied to it.

No more 3 shots in round 1 opening fire.

So what you saying is that AAA roll a dice per aircraft each round and AAA are not stackable?
So if 2 planes roll 2 dice if 50 planes roll 50 dice?
Seems a bit overpowering to me

If you are saying each AAA roll 1 dice each round then that would reduce the effectiveness of AAA. It would work maybe with an cost reduction

But my idea slightly increases AAA’s effective with very little change to the current rules

AAA are treated as normal unit during normal combat. Hitting on a 1
They still get the 3 preemptive rolls at planes
This follows choose your casualties

So once a battle begins (after the preemptive 3 AA dice), AAA roll no differently than, say an infantry. Except obviously the AAA hits only on a 1

Does not matter if there are planes or not

[Jennifer]

You typed that as I was typing, right? lol.

3 AA Guns = 3 AA Gun shots max even if there are 50 fighters.  However, it’s only 1 or 2 shots if there are only 1 or 2 planes attacking.  This is per round, so as planes are shot out of the air, the number of AA Gun shots are reduced to compensate.

[Derek]

Ok well you are going the wrong direction IMO
AAA needs to be more effective not less

I just think my idea is better because it changes less and slightly increases AAA effectiveness

Your idea may be feasible if you were to give 1 shot to each AAA no matter how many fighters. And what I mean is if there are 3 AAA and 2 fighters you roll 3 dice
And would also have to look at a price reduction

But why not just keep all the current OOB rules but let AAA roll a defense dice during normal combat same as all other units. You could even let AAA attack on a 1 (would attack same as an unsupported infantry) AAA only get the 3 preemptive shots at planes on defense

It also doesn’t kill anymore planes than current OOB rules, this is what I like most about it

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

You typed that as I was typing, right? lol.

3 AA Guns = 3 AA Gun shots max even if there are 50 fighters.� **However, it’s only 1 or 2 shots if there are only 1 or 2 planes attacking.**� This is per round, so as planes are shot out of the air, the number of AA Gun shots are reduced to compensate.

Ok
Do you keep the preemptive strike every round? Or only on the first?

Because, if you keep it every round it has much impact and it is even more powerful vs OOB.
As I said, on your Moscow 10 rnds scenario it is 3.5 times killer than OOB.
7 planes down out of 12 vs 2 planes down on the first round.
6 IPCs is a must (at least).

Sorry to disappoint you,  :wink:
but if I have to choose between your HR and Uncrustable HR.
I prefer Uncrustable because it is still OOB in your Moscow scenario.
It is a far less Overpowered AAA.

[Jennifer]

Yes, in my opinion a house rule for AA Guns would be to treat them like submarines.  If they hit something it’s dead before it can return fire.

So, if you had 12 aircraft attacking 3 guns:

Round 1:  3 AA Gun shots
Round 2:  3 AA Gun shots
Round 3:  3 AA Gun shots
…
Because there are at least 3 attacking aircraft and you have 3 AA Guns.

If there is 1 aircraft attacking 7 AA Guns:
Round 1: 1 AA Gun shot
Round 2: 1 AA Gun shot
…
Until the plane is destroyed or all AA Guns are destroyed.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

Ok well you are going the wrong direction IMO
AAA needs to be more effective not less

I just think my idea is better because it changes less and slightly increases AAA effectiveness

Your idea may be feasible if you were to give 1 shot to each AAA no matter how many fighters. And what I mean is if there are 3 AAA and 2 fighters you roll 3 dice
And would also have to look at a price reduction

But why not just keep all the current OOB rules but let AAA roll a defense dice during normal combat same as all other units. You could even let AAA attack on a 1 (would attack same as an unsupported infantry) AAA only get the 3 preemptive shots at planes on defense

It also doesn’t kill anymore planes than current OOB rules, this is what I like most about it

AAA needs to be more effective not less
Are you kidding? Even without the first round against 3 planes/AAA.
Cmdr Jen Option 3 It is still very effective.

Option 3:
Each AAA gun would get up to 1 shot/1 plane (whichever is less)  every round.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

4 Shots round 1, 1 hit on average (rounding up)   4/0   1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 2, no hit to keep the average:        8/6
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  12/6  1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  16/12 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 5, no hit to keep the average:       20/18
4 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average                      24/18 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 7, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  28/24 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 8, no hit to keep the average:       32/30
4 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  36/30 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 10, 1 hit on average (rounding up) 40/36 1 plane destroyed

Option 3 results:
Get 3.5 times regular casualities =  7 planes will be destroyed on average but 5 planes will still be on the battlefield.

It is less effective only when the  battle last for 2 or 1 round.

Think about a tactical straffing with the 12 planes of this Moscow scenario for a single round.
4AAA OOB rules get 12@1 on each plane.
Option 3, only 4@1 on each plane.

[Jennifer]

Yer rule, I didn’t say you had to take mine. :P

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

Yer rule, I didn’t say you had to take mine. :P

If I was playing on your board game with a Larry’s regular set up,  I would surely pledge for the opening round preemptive shot only.
Just to somewhat reduce the OP effect of your AAA HR.

Your prefered choice of option 3 is a simpler rule but I think Larry didn’t introduce it while changing AAgun to AAAgun because of this unbalancing effect on planes.

To counterweight it, you had to increase the cost of AAA and lower the cost of plane for taking in account the higher rates of casualities amongst them.

Don’t you think?

[Jennifer]

It is my opinion that the change to AA Guns was in an effort to prevent an early Sea Lion being possible.  Honestly, I feel that Larry may have had to change his shorts the first time the round 2 Sea Lion was used against him in a game and may have over compensated a bit.

That’s just my opinion, I have no facts to support it, no facts to deny it either.  He’s never said to me, and I did ask!  I asked a LOT!  Cause at the time he was also a little worried that my KJF was unstoppable (Alpha 2) and by unstoppable, I mean no one on the boards could stop me from successfully containing Japan to a mere smattering of islands - most of which were worth 0 IPC.  It was, of course, a race from that point on to stop Germany from winning the game…