Japan + Larry Harris = HUH!?

[Dark_Destroyer]

This topic is about the Japanese game limitations on tactics prior to the events of Pearl Harbor and to address the absurd Japanese/United States national objective.  (Alpha +2)

Game Limitations
Playing Japan before Pearl Harbor gives you the advantage of doing things they should of done (Germany has this flexibility).  However, Larry has it setup so the United States will declare war on the Japanese the instant you try something different in the Pacific.  The Dutch Islands should all be up for grabs.  It makes no historical sense to set it up as a instant “all out war” scenario the minute Japanese step foot on them.  It also doesn’t make sense that you can grab those Dutch Islands after India/Anzac declare war on you and not make the United States go to war with you.

Final thoughts:  Japan can attack anyone in the Pacific without worry of a USA declaration of war.  USA still has its turn 3 declare war, historically by this time the president would have setup a way into war even without Pearl Harbor happening (look up the Lanikai incident).

Illogical NA
How in the world can Larry even think about even adding this to the National Objectives!?  The United States, while Japanese ravaged Korea/China and finally FIC, halted shipments of airplanes, parts, machine tools, and aviation gasoline to the Japanese to make them stop attacking China (FIC was huge in stopping aid reaching China).  It makes no sense for USA to give +10 IPC to the Japanese when in fact they stopped giving aid to stop the Japanese war in the East.

Final thoughts:  Get rid of it.

[Bigtiti]

doesn’t the new NO resemble trade with japan and US prior to FIC assault?

[Dark_Destroyer]

@Frontovik:

doesn’t the new NO resemble trade with japan and US prior to FIC assault?

The game starts at the 1st month of 1940 (assuming), so that means the Japanese will have FIC in September of 1940 (historically).  Pearl Harbor/USA declares war in turn 3 (historically), so that gives us about 8 months per turn.  It only logically/historically makes sense for about one turn.

How stupid would it be to have Japan at war with Russia/China/India/ANZAC (lets say Allies delcared war under threat), but Japan doesn’t take FIC and we have Japan fueling up war with all the Pacific and USA is giving them aid!!  Hogwash I say.

The reason it’s so messed up, is because Larry puts limitations on Japan via historical reasons (USA no matter what goes to war turn 3 via Pearl Harbor), yet he makes up fictional inaccuracies like the USA declaring war on Japan prior to Pearl Harbor!  No matter the reason, unless directly provoked, in 1940, the USA was in no political, or strategical position to declare war.

[Hobbes]

@Dark_Destroyer:

This topic is about the Japanese game limitations on tactics prior to the events of Pearl Harbor and to address the absurd Japanese/United States national objective.  (Alpha +2)

Game Limitations
Playing Japan before Pearl Harbor gives you the advantage of doing things they should of done (Germany has this flexibility).  However, Larry has it setup so the United States will declare war on the Japanese the instant you try something different in the Pacific.  The Dutch Islands should all be up for grabs.  It makes no historical sense to set it up as a instant “all out war” scenario the minute Japanese step foot on them.  It also doesn’t make sense that you can grab those Dutch Islands after India/Anzac declare war on you and not make the United States go to war with you.

Final thoughts:  Japan can attack anyone in the Pacific without worry of a USA declaration of war.  USA still has its turn 3 declare war, historically by this time the president would have setup a way into war even without Pearl Harbor happening (look up the Lanikai incident).

Illogical NA
How in the world can Larry even think about even adding this to the National Objectives!?  The United States, while Japanese ravaged Korea/China and finally FIC, halted shipments of airplanes, parts, machine tools, and aviation gasoline to the Japanese to make them stop attacking China (FIC was huge in stopping aid reaching China).  It makes no sense for USA to give +10 IPC to the Japanese when in fact they stopped giving aid to stop the Japanese war in the East.

Final thoughts:  Get rid of it.

Korea belonged to Japan since the beginning of the century. The embargo you mention was placed in 1938/39 when US imposed a ‘moral embargo’ against Japan by informing aircraft manufacturers and others not to sell weapons to Japan.
The main help given by the US to Japan was oil: the US supplied 80% of all of Japan’s imports (and Japan’s domestic production was minimal) until August 1941, after Japan had invaded Southern Indochina. The NO realistically reflects that, since oil was essential to the Japanese economy before the war started.

[ghr2]

Korea belonged to Japan since the beginning of the century.

Since like 1910/1911

[Imperious Leader]

Thats right.

[Dark_Destroyer]

@Hobbes:

Korea belonged to Japan since the beginning of the century. The embargo you mention was placed in 1938/39 when US imposed a ‘moral embargo’ against Japan by informing aircraft manufacturers and others not to sell weapons to Japan.
The main help given by the US to Japan was oil: the US supplied 80% of all of Japan’s imports (and Japan’s domestic production was minimal) until August 1941, after Japan had invaded Southern Indochina. The NO realistically reflects that, since oil was essential to the Japanese economy before the war started.

Actually, if you really want to nit-pick, it was more like 60% of USA oil by 1940.  They reduced the oil around September of 1940.  The war Japanese started began with Korea and ended with America, it just flowed into WW2.

[knp7765]

@Dark_Destroyer:

The war Japanese started began with Korea and ended with America, it just flowed into WW2.

Incorrect.  As was previously stated, Korea already belonged to Japan.  The war started when Japanese forces invaded Manchuria from Korea in Sept. 1931.

[Dark_Destroyer]

@knp7765:

@Dark_Destroyer:

The war Japanese started began with Korea and ended with America, it just flowed into WW2.

Incorrect.  As was previously stated, Korea already belonged to Japan.  The war started when Japanese forces invaded Manchuria from Korea in Sept. 1931.

Actually you are incorrect.  Japan had a 35-year imperialist expansion, which lasted August 22, 1910 to August 15, 1945.  That expansion included Korea, China, and finally US islands.  Which ended up (you guessed wrong) happening to include WW2.

[JimmyHat]

‘The war’ you are referring to is the 2nd Sino-Japanese war.

From our(american perspective) there were 2 world wars in the early 20th century.  But from other countries perspective, there were many wars.

Trying to roll them all up into 1 great big world war sounds good for the victorious history books, but doesn’t really tell the truth.

[Hobbes]

@Dark_Destroyer:

@Hobbes:

Korea belonged to Japan since the beginning of the century. The embargo you mention was placed in 1938/39 when US imposed a ‘moral embargo’ against Japan by informing aircraft manufacturers and others not to sell weapons to Japan.
The main help given by the US to Japan was oil: the US supplied 80% of all of Japan’s imports (and Japan’s domestic production was minimal) until August 1941, after Japan had invaded Southern Indochina. The NO realistically reflects that, since oil was essential to the Japanese economy before the war started.

Actually, if you really want to nit-pick, it was more like 60% of USA oil by 1940.  They reduced the oil around September of 1940.  The war Japanese started began with Korea and ended with America, it just flowed into WW2.

Nit-picking is an art :)

[Geist]

Back to the point of the original post, I tend to agree, Japan has limited options. Personally, I’d like to see the US unable to declare war until turn four and Japan able to invade the DEI, however, if they do this the US can then declare war on Turn 3.

[Dark_Destroyer]

@Geist:

Back to the point of the original post, I tend to agree, Japan has limited options. Personally, I’d like to see the US unable to declare war until turn four and Japan able to invade the DEI, however, if they do this the US can then declare war on Turn 3.

Thank you.  So you think the USA still has the right to declare war on the Japanese if the Japanese attack ANZAC or UK?  If so why?

[MacNaughton]

@Geist:

Back to the point of the original post, I tend to agree, Japan has limited options. Personally, I’d like to see the US unable to declare war until turn four and Japan able to invade the DEI, however, if they do this the US can then declare war on Turn 3.

What if the US were to declare war if/when Japan reaches a certain level of income? This could be a simple rule that holds true no matter what Japan’s strategy is. It gives Japan the flexibility to go all out against Russia, take the DEI, or whatever else without bringing in the US too early. And it even keeps with the tone of the US only declaring war on Japan if Japan’s emperialism gets too out of hand.
There are a few problems that I see off the bat. Does this give Japan the ability to take India without the US entering the war? What happens if India, ANZAC, China, and Russia fight well enough against Japan to keep it from reaching this certain level of income? How will we determine if the US can enter the European theatre?
I am very attracted to a simple rule to make this aspect of the game clearer and easier, but am not sure how simple the rule can be and still be adequete.

[Geist]

I was thinking more along the lines of an invasion of the DEI doesn’t automatically force anyone to declare war and a declaration on ANZAC or the UK still brings the US into the war. What I think might balance, the early Japanese IPC’s it out is that if Japan invades the DEI then ANZAC and UK both can gain their NO without being at war with Japan, kind of a gearing up for an attack reaction and offcourse Japan loses the 10 point US NO. Though in all honesty, at this point I’m more in favor of smaller changes to the Alpha +2 set up, since it seems to be pretty good as is. To me there seems to be a small bias towards the allies, but, hopefully there will be a few tweaks to the set up in the final version.

[Pvt.Ryan]

Well if you think about it the US trade with Japan was already hanging by a thread cause of the invasion of China. They did infact declare a embargo just prior to Pearl Harbour.

[knp7765]

Don’t forget that Borneo is considered a part of the DEI and it belongs to UK/India.  If Japan is going after the DEI NO, then it has to take Borneo which would be a direct attack on UK.

[Bigtiti]

@Dark_Destroyer:

@knp7765:

@Dark_Destroyer:

The war Japanese started began with Korea and ended with America, it just flowed into WW2.

Incorrect.  As was previously stated, Korea already belonged to Japan.  The war started when Japanese forces invaded Manchuria from Korea in Sept. 1931.

Actually you are incorrect.  Japan had a 35-year imperialist expansion, which lasted August 22, 1910 to August 15, 1945.  That expansion included Korea, China, and finally US islands.  Which ended up (you guessed wrong) happening to include WW2.

nit-picking the nit-picker: japanese expansion started in 1905 with attacking the russian forces in Port Arthur ^^