@general-6-stars Yes, I would like to see that.
FMG COMBAT UNITS - Rules: AIR TRANSPORT
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It is balanced by only carrying one inf in the ncm, don’t you think? 10 ipc is still a big investment to fly around one inf so they will not result in ‘unlimited reinforcing of units’. I actually see the 2 capacity/needs airfield way as more likely to result in over reinforcing. The problem with air transports is that they re WAY to hard for the enemy to hit, so this also addresses that by keeping their capacity down (you had mentioned the enemy countering them, what did you mean? SBR’s on their landing zone AB’s? That’s a lot of investment and risk to counter a transport). I think in all likelyhood we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Thanks, moralecheck,
There is one item I forgot to address - paratroop stats. I would lobby for the following:
Attack 1 / Defense 2 / Move 1 / Cost 4
Attack of 2 when air-dropped during combat move.
Can be supported by artillery, just like regular infantry.
Count as regular infantry if transported by ship.
Arguments for attack of 2 when air-dropped:
1. Elite units/all volunteers
2. If intelligence and counterintelligence people have done their jobs well, they should have the element of surprise. (If they haven’t done their job, that would be represented by a roll of 3-6.)
3. They are usually attacking high value targets (bridges, towns with major road and rail intersections, airfields, etc.), which means they are likely to do disproportionate damage for their numbers.
4. They are probably dropping far from the front lines, where defenders are less alert. The defenders in rear areas are also less likely to be as capable and experienced as those on the front lines.
Arguments against:
1. Air drops are iffy. If the wind is blowing the wrong way, they could be scattered, and lose time getting reorganized.
2. Since they are behind enemy lines, they are going to have supply problems in a prolonged engagement, and they won’t have access to heavy artillery support. This can be mitigated somewhat by air dropping supplies, and using bombers as a substitute for artillery.
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I’d tend to be against this (reminds me of marines in AAP which actually made amphibious assaults EASIER than land battles). But I might be open to attacks with a 2 (not increased by art) on the first round of combat, and then a 1 after that (or 2 with art). Reflects the surprise nicely. Even a 1 reflects their elite status as they are packing the same punch as their better equipped inf counterparts.
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Moralecheck,
I respectfully disagree with a N/C air transport limit of only one unit.
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My meaning of “the enemy being able to counter these moves” refers to the reaction of your enemy to your purchases and placement of units. For example:
If I were to see you buy two Air Transports, two Paratroopers, and build an Airbase close to the front lines my Intelligence Service (my eyes in this case) would let me know of the possible future capabilities of yours and I’d have to consider:
defensive adjustment of units
re-inforcement in the areas concerned
counter-attack possibilities (such as conquering the Airbase, or whatever the possibilities of the situation are)The main point being that the attacker has to “invest” somewhat in his strategy and this allows the defender to react or counter it somewhat before the blow falls.
This makes it important for an attacker to be able to disquise their plans as much as possible and a defender to be aware of their opponents capabilities. These should already be cardinal rules of warfare for the players, but even more important when you add combat paratroop drops to the mix. These attacks can be devastating and war-winning!
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I must say that I’m enjoying the intelligent and thoughtful discussion with everyone on this subject. It shows that ya’ll (I’m a Southerner) truly care for and understand this wonderful strategy game we have.
“Tall Paul”
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moralecheck,
Yeah, I’d agree that having paratroops attacking with a 2 on the first round only during an airdrop makes better sense. I had played with that before, and it seemed to work okay. I dropped the idea because I thought people didn’t want that level of complexity. But I see you tend to think along the same lines I do.
I also originally swiped an idea from World in Flames where paratroops dropped on an undefended enemy territory had to fight a notional garrison unit, which defends on a 1. It represents a unit, or multiple units, that are too small and dispersed to be represented by a playing piece on the map. But no one seemed interested in that level of complexity at all. :-)
As for Marines, I’ve been toying with a similar idea. Maybe give them an attack of 2 on the first round of an amphibious invasion, reverting to 1 on later rounds. But I’m not sure that would make them worth the extra IPC. So perhaps give them an attack of 2 for every round of the invasion, or maybe even give them an attack of 3 on the first round. I’d also say tanks and artillery attack with a 1 on the first round. Artillery can’t support infantry until round 2, and tanks can’t support tac bombers until round 2. (But fighters can still support tac bombers.) So, basically, the only land unit not attacking with a 1 on the first round would be the marines, which conveniently gives them a reason to exist. What do you think?
Tall Paul,
I’m looking at the map, and trying to imagine a scenario where abuse would be rampant. Based on factories and airbases that exist at the start of the game, I’m not seeing it. That’s not to say someone couldn’t build a new factory, but that requires more money on top of the 14 IPCs for the air transport and paratroop. Paratroops built in Britain could effectively be dropped in Normandy or Holland/Belgium on the next turn. That seems reasonable (and historically within bounds). Paratroops built in Germany could be dropped in Leningrad the next turn, IF the Germans already control the Baltic States. Southern Italy could hit Alexandria or Egypt with paratroops (but they can only reach Egypt because of the airfield). Most of the other scenarios involve moving for at least one turn to get in position from the factory, which would telegraph the threat to your opponent. Either that, or the factory territory has an airfield in it anyway. But it’s possible I’m missing something. What are you seeing that I’m missing?
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Been a long time since I played WiF… :-)
Well in A&A IB, marines attacked on a 3. Too powerful. In A&AP, they attacked on a 2 and could be raised to 3 by artillery (i think, it’s been a while). Still too powerful. Add to that, they were being used to assault territories that the unit could have walked into, just to activate shore bombardment and marine bonuses. An amphibious assault should not be easier than an overland route. An attack on a 2, doesn’t really work either as 2 marines are no more effective than an inf and an artillery combo (which would cost 1 less ipc). To be honest, I was just gonna use HBG’s US marines as pacific infantry. That said, if we were to have marine abailities, I’d suggest this: cost 4 ipc, strength 1/2/1. Ability: A sea transport carrying marines (and only marines) can carry 3. This would give them a distinct advantage, and maybe lead to more island battles. It also emphasizes the importance of air support in those battles. Don’t think of the transport as being overloaded, think of the marine units as smaller.
Sorry for the threadjack! Maybe we should continue this in another thread. :oops:
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My apologies also for going off-topic. Paratroops are kind of related, but marines are straying a bit. I’ve created a new topic. :oops:
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@Tall:
I must say that I’m enjoying the intelligent and thoughtful discussion with everyone on this subject. It shows that ya’ll (I’m a Southerner) truly care for and understand this wonderful strategy game we have.
“Tall Paul”
Me too. :-)
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This is not historical… Way too cheap. 10 is perfect since the bomber can perform it’s attack mission as well
You mean used a bomber to drop paratroopers and/or perform bombing?
That’s ridiculous….Air transport 10 IPC + paratroopers 4 IPC = 14 IPC…too much.
For this price, I’m gonna buy bombers and make more damages…Oh and wait…should I pay also to build an air base? Come on…hom much that it’s going to cost me?
It takes only a few days for the Marines and Japanese forces to build air field in the middle of nowhere! -
You mean used a bomber to drop paratroopers and/or perform bombing?
Yes because the game does not have a separate piece for air transport. Under the introduction of a new piece, this new unit would not have any attack values. So i was referring to a rule using the OOB pieces.
That’s ridiculous….Air transport 10 IPC + paratroopers 4 IPC = 14 IPC…too much.
For this price, I’m gonna buy bombers and make more damages…Not really because it can ferry 2 infantry twice the distance as a naval transport and avoid stopping at the first land space. You get +2 mp for 3 IPC extra…not a bad deal
Oh and wait…should I pay also to build an air base? Come on…hom much that it’s going to cost me?
It takes only a few days for the Marines and Japanese forces to build air field in the middle of nowhere!I think the air base requirement should be just for combat movement, not NCM.
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I had an idea last night regarding the new Air Transport planes (which we should have for every nation before too much longer if FMG can kick their Chinese factory in the butt) and the Paratroops tech for Global 1940. So far, the rules regarding Air Transport planes seems to be:
Cost 10, Move 4, Attack=0, Defense=0
Last unit in territory to be destroyed, much like sea transports in naval battles.
Can carry 1 Paratroop unit for Combat Move, 2 infantry/paratroop/marines/etc. in Non Combat Move. MUST be loaded at an Air Base in CM or NCM.
Paratroops can be dropped behind enemy lines and transport can land in any friendly territory in Combat Move.
Infantry/Paratroops/Marines/etc. must be off loaded at a friendly Air Base in Non Combat Move.
Can be hit by AA fire and if so, paratroops/ infantry/ etc. are lost with plane.Okay, so I thought if we didn’t want to change the Paratroop tech too much and to accomodate our new piece, the Paratroop Tech could simply be changed to say that now Air Transport planes can carry 2 (TWO) Paratroop units into a battle. Perhaps simply call it “Improved Paratroop Abilities”.
Sound Good? -
I was thinking that air transports move 5 +1 with air base for the desired 6. it moves farther than a fighter but less than a bomber. troops have to be loaded at an airbase. when you are in combat move you have to drop troops off then fly back to friendly zone, so really…you wont be going too far into enemy territories. in non combat, transports can move the full 5+1 to allied territory, but the transport movement is over and cant move till next turn. can only transport 1 infantry ncm and cm. cost 10 ipc. can load 2 soldiers if you get the paratrooper tech
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@ Tall Paul (or anyone)
Why do you want to require AB for return flight of air transport after dropping paratroop in CM but not for bombers? If a bomber can fly five spaces, drop bombs, and then land one TT behind a newly conquered one why can’t the transport do the same?
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@FM7:
@ Tall Paul (or anyone)
Why do you want to require AB for return flight of air transport after dropping paratroop in CM but not for bombers? If a bomber can fly five spaces, drop bombs, and then land one TT behind a newly conquered one why can’t the transport do the same?
The airbase landing requirement is only for transport planes that are ferrying 2 infantry units during the non-combat move. I think IL explained it to me as that requirement is to represent the logistics necessary in transporting extra men from one spot to another.
For combat move paratroop drops, the transport plane doesn’t need to land at an airbase. It can do like you say and land in any friendly territory as long as it was friendly at the start of the turn. For that freedom in landing space, it is restricted to 1 paratroop unit. -
Got it, thanks.
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I had an idea last night regarding the new Air Transport planes (which we should have for every nation before too much longer if FMG can kick their Chinese factory in the butt) and the Paratroops tech for Global 1940. So far, the rules regarding Air Transport planes seems to be:
Cost 10, Move 4, Attack=0, Defense=0
Last unit in territory to be destroyed, much like sea transports in naval battles.
Can carry 1 Paratroop unit for Combat Move, 2 infantry/paratroop/marines/etc. in Non Combat Move. MUST be loaded at an Air Base in CM or NCM.
Paratroops can be dropped behind enemy lines and transport can land in any friendly territory in Combat Move.
Infantry/Paratroops/Marines/etc. must be off loaded at a friendly Air Base in Non Combat Move.
Can be hit by AA fire and if so, paratroops/ infantry/ etc. are lost with plane.Okay, so I thought if we didn’t want to change the Paratroop tech too much and to accomodate our new piece, the Paratroop Tech could simply be changed to say that now Air Transport planes can carry 2 (TWO) Paratroop units into a battle. Perhaps simply call it “Improved Paratroop Abilities”.
Sound Good?I don’t think “chosen last” in combat is necessary for air transports. Sea transports are dirt cheap compared to other sea or air units, so it made sense there. These units are more than 3 times the price of an inf unit. No one is going to be using air transports as fodder.
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We just made air transports cheaper in our house rules and they have no combat value and are taken last.
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In the end, we went this route (still subject to change, as we always seem to reveal some flaw each game, though we rarely use house rules):
Air Transports
Cost 8. No build limit
0/0/4. Air transports had about the same range as fighters, and this prevents trans atlantic flights as well as pacific island hopping.
There is no requirement for them to be chosen last as losses.
In combat move: � Can carry 1 para inf. � An airbase is not required, but will add one range (as it does in the NCM). �
When attacking, a transport is considered to retreat as soon as it drops it’s paratrooper (leave it in the space until NCM). � This occurs right after AA fire. � If the transport is shot down by AA, the para inf is lost as well.
A para costs 4 IPC. � Build limit, 1 per turn. � These can’t be saved. � I.e., If you build 0 on turn 6, you can’t build 2 on turn 7.
1/2/1 � When airdropped, it attacks with a 2 on the first cycle, and then reverts to a 1. � A para can be supported by artillery, giving them an attack of 3 in the first cycle, or 2 thereafter.
Non combat move: � If an air transport was not used in combat, it may transport 1 inf type unit in the NCM instead (I still can’t stomach 2. � That’s for the big ships). � No airfields are required and the inf unit does not have to start in the same space as the transport, but it cannot have moved first in either CM or NCM. � An air transport cannot pick up from or land in a territory captured this player turn. � The rule about not having to start in the same space came about after a discussion about a german airdrop on Crete. � The drop was planned for turn 3, but the player was annoyed that he would have to wait until turn 4 to NCM an air transport there, and until turn 5 to get them back to the continent (let alone the idea that they would need to build an airbase first). � If transport ships can move move and pick up, it seemed more consistant to allow � a move-then-pickup like sea transports. � So in the Crete example, the unit is combat dropped from Greece on Turn 3, with the air transport returning to Greece. � On Turn 4, it can fly from Greece, pick up the unit on Crete and use its 2 remaining movement to land wherever. � Most interesting use so far: � A german player used 2 air transports to evacuate a hopeless situation in Norway of its 2 remaining inf in the NCM, with the transports starting and ending their turn in Denmark.
An air transport cannot land on a carrier.
Edit: Deleted Combat move restrictions. They were confusing. And considering the cost and build limit of paras, they were unnecessary.
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Air transports had about the same range as fighters, and this prevents trans atlantic flights as well as pacific island hopping.
I really like this one! ANy comments?
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My previous post’s rules have been revised and simplified. The build limits will keep the Russians from being in too much trouble with behind the lines airdrops from the Axis without the complex restrictions.
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