An Easy Italian Fix

[Imperious Leader]

Yea so make Italy neutral till THEY decide they want to go to war or until Paris falls.

Problem solved and Germany does not have to buy a fleet just to save the Italian navy and force UK to go back to UK to prevent this.

Anything that forces a scripted move to save a position from demise of turn 1 should not be in any design.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Imperious:

Yea so make Italy neutral till THEY decide they want to go to war or until Paris falls.

Problem solved and Germany does not have to buy a fleet just to save the Italian navy and force UK to go back to UK to prevent this.

Anything that forces a scripted move to save a position from demise of turn 1 should not be in any design.

Just because the Italians lose their fleet doesn’t mean the axis lose.

[lnmajor]

IL, why didnt you suggest this? Isnt Italy activated after Paris falling your rule from your 39-45 deluxe world at war game? that works real well.

[Imperious Leader]

IL, why didnt you suggest this? Isnt Italy activated after Paris falling your rule from your 39-45 deluxe world at war game? that works real well.

Yes thats why i am saying the same thing here. Italy is activated into war once paris falls. That is exactly what i am saying. Calvin wants UK to be able to attack them first, but thats not how the war went.

Again Italy is only at war when she starts the war after France falls. The game turns are happening at the same time in reality even though in the game they are in sequence, so when Italy decides its time it will begin its war. UK has no say in the matter and is in no position to attack Italy just because she can.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Imperious:

IL, why didnt you suggest this? Isnt Italy activated after Paris falling your rule from your 39-45 deluxe world at war game? that works real well.

Yes thats why i am saying the same thing here. Italy is activated into war once paris falls. That is exactly what i am saying. Calvin wants UK to be able to attack them first, but thats not how the war went.

Again Italy is only at war when she starts the war after France falls. The game turns are happening at the same time in reality even though in the game they are in sequence, so when Italy decides its time it will begin its war. UK has no say in the matter and is in no position to attack Italy just because she can.

Well, Germany usually takes Paris G1, so Italy declares war then, right?

[UN Spacy]

Just because the Italians lose their fleet doesn’t mean the axis lose.

Agreed.

But seriously, Italy is not broken. At all. I understand that the game is only days old, and that people should nitpick it as much as possible, but I hope they understand that in Europe, there is really no right or wrong strategy. Everything has its pros and cons.

For example, a UK1 attack on the Italian fleet.

Pros: Destroys half of the Italian naval prescense, has support of the French fleet, prevents Italy from reinforcing Africa (temporarily perhaps), and from getting its NO.

Cons: The Germans can definitely strike at the Allied navy from France if it wanted to with the Luftwaffe (given it survived relatively intact in the attack on France and the British navy), sinking a CV, fighter, tac. bomber, cruiser and destroyer, giving the Italians plenty of time to re-build its fleet while the Brits have little to no naval prescense in the Med now.

HOWEVER: the other thing is the dice. THE DICE. The dice decides the battles. Strategies are one thing, but rolling the dice truly decides the fate of battles. I can list every pro and con of attacking the Italian fleet on UK1, but they can all suddenly be null and void if the dice leans towards one or the other. I’ve had an instance in my last Global game (not the incredibly slow one I’m playing online right now  :roll:) where the British attackers on the Italian fleet was mortally wounded, with only a fighter surviving (where it thereafter was destroyed because it could not land anywhere). I’ve run multiple simulations after that game on a British attack on the Italian fleet, and the Italians survived relatively intact seven out of thirteen times while inflicting horrendous losses on the British.

So I don’t think we need to fix anything, at least not at the moment while everyone’s nitpicking everything. The attack on the Italian fleet is risky and can end in disaster for either side roughly equally. Why? Because of the dice.

[lnmajor]

Great point Spacy!
The dice are the be all,end all of this game. The fate of the dice are like the unpredictability of real war. It creates the individuality of each and every game and strategy, no matter how well planned. besides who doesnt love drinking beer,rolling dice,and conquering the world on a Saturday night.
“Saturday nights allright for fightin”- Elton John :-D

[calvinhobbesliker]

@UN:

Just because the Italians lose their fleet doesn’t mean the axis lose.

Agreed.

But seriously, Italy is not broken. At all. I understand that the game is only days old, and that people should nitpick it as much as possible, but I hope they understand that in Europe, there is really no right or wrong strategy. Everything has its pros and cons.

For example, a UK1 attack on the Italian fleet.

Pros: Destroys half of the Italian naval prescense, has support of the French fleet, prevents Italy from reinforcing Africa (temporarily perhaps), and from getting its NO.

Cons: The Germans can definitely strike at the Allied navy from France if it wanted to with the Luftwaffe (given it survived relatively intact in the attack on France and the British navy), sinking a CV, fighter, tac. bomber, cruiser and destroyer, giving the Italians plenty of time to re-build its fleet while the Brits have little to no naval prescense in the Med now.

HOWEVER: the other thing is the dice. THE DICE. The dice decides the battles. Strategies are one thing, but rolling the dice truly decides the fate of battles. I can list every pro and con of attacking the Italian fleet on UK1, but they can all suddenly be null and void if the dice leans towards one or the other. I’ve had an instance in my last Global game (not the incredibly slow one I’m playing online right now  :roll:) where the British attackers on the Italian fleet was mortally wounded, with only a fighter surviving (where it thereafter was destroyed because it could not land anywhere). I’ve run multiple simulations after that game on a British attack on the Italian fleet, and the Italians survived relatively intact seven out of thirteen times while inflicting horrendous losses on the British.

So I don’t think we need to fix anything, at least not at the moment while everyone’s nitpicking everything. The attack on the Italian fleet is risky and can end in disaster for either side roughly equally. Why? Because of the dice.

I JUST lost a Taranto battle, damaging the BB while losing everything except the ftr. I rolled 1@2, 3@3, and 2@4, and I could only get 1 hit. He rolled 2@3 and 2@4 and got 3 hits.

[UN Spacy]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@UN:

Just because the Italians lose their fleet doesn’t mean the axis lose.

Agreed.

But seriously, Italy is not broken. At all. I understand that the game is only days old, and that people should nitpick it as much as possible, but I hope they understand that in Europe, there is really no right or wrong strategy. Everything has its pros and cons.

For example, a UK1 attack on the Italian fleet.

Pros: Destroys half of the Italian naval prescense, has support of the French fleet, prevents Italy from reinforcing Africa (temporarily perhaps), and from getting its NO.

Cons: The Germans can definitely strike at the Allied navy from France if it wanted to with the Luftwaffe (given it survived relatively intact in the attack on France and the British navy), sinking a CV, fighter, tac. bomber, cruiser and destroyer, giving the Italians plenty of time to re-build its fleet while the Brits have little to no naval prescense in the Med now.

HOWEVER: the other thing is the dice. THE DICE. The dice decides the battles. Strategies are one thing, but rolling the dice truly decides the fate of battles. I can list every pro and con of attacking the Italian fleet on UK1, but they can all suddenly be null and void if the dice leans towards one or the other. I’ve had an instance in my last Global game (not the incredibly slow one I’m playing online right now  :roll:) where the British attackers on the Italian fleet was mortally wounded, with only a fighter surviving (where it thereafter was destroyed because it could not land anywhere). I’ve run multiple simulations after that game on a British attack on the Italian fleet, and the Italians survived relatively intact seven out of thirteen times while inflicting horrendous losses on the British.

So I don’t think we need to fix anything, at least not at the moment while everyone’s nitpicking everything. The attack on the Italian fleet is risky and can end in disaster for either side roughly equally. Why? Because of the dice.

I JUST lost a Taranto battle, damaging the BB while losing everything except the ftr. I rolled 1@2, 3@3, and 2@4, and I could only get 1 hit. He rolled 2@3 and 2@4 and got 3 hits.

What was up against what, exactly? I thought the Western Italian fleet only has a battleship and cruiser? :?

[Imperious Leader]

Well, Germany usually takes Paris G1, so Italy declares war then, right?

in terms of history right. In the games terms this translates into Italy going active on her turn. ( at least it should work that way)

IN the game everything happens in sequence, so Italy though it plays after UK is really declaring war at the same time and making its attacks on its own turn. IN the game that is when it decides to attack, so UK should not have any ability to declare war first and attack first. Remember Italy declared war and not UK.

[Imperious Leader]

So I don’t think we need to fix anything, at least not at the moment while everyone’s nitpicking everything. The attack on the Italian fleet is risky and can end in disaster for either side roughly equally. Why? Because of the dice.

Well not really. UK can potentially bring the CV, CA, DD, 1 tactical, 1 fighter and crush the larger Italian fleet. THat is if Germany does not build transports on her turn.

This is the crux of the issue. The game forces players into options in order to prevent glitches. If Italy was not at war till she starts her turn ( UK cant attack) this saves the game from this travesty.

[BJCard]

Well, the UK can attack (declare war) on Japan on any turn, why not Italy?

[UN Spacy]

@Imperious:

So I don’t think we need to fix anything, at least not at the moment while everyone’s nitpicking everything. The attack on the Italian fleet is risky and can end in disaster for either side roughly equally. Why? Because of the dice.

Well not really. UK can potentially bring the CV, CA, DD, 1 tactical, 1 fighter and crush the larger Italian fleet. THat is if Germany does not build transports on her turn.

This is the crux of the issue. The game forces players into options in order to prevent glitches. If Italy was not at war till she starts her turn ( UK cant attack) this saves the game from this travesty.

That’s exactly what you should NOT do is bring the CV in the battle. If it gets a hit, the planes will have no where to land and be destroyed. If you have your other ships take the damage (destroyer or cruiser), that’s one less warship that the British have against the Italian menace. Yes, the French fleet is there, but the Germans will attempt to wipe them out with a swarm of aircraft, along with any surviving British warships, and we never know for sure what the extent of the damage will be for either side because of the chaotic dice. So you’d have to have the hits go on the planes, which is just as bad because  Britain needs air power to survive in Africa and the Med.

So the CV should NOT be in the battle at all, which leaves a cruiser, destroyer, a tactical bomber, and fighter vs. a cruiser and battleship. Again, the dice WILL play heavily into this battle; seven out of thirteen times the Italians gave the British a fatal beating for their attack. So it’s a huge risk that will increase the chance of success for the victor.

[Imperious Leader]

That’s exactly what you should NOT do is bring the CV in the battle.

Well the CV is for defense to protect the fleet from the other Italian units. I think the CV will survive the battle, while the idea is to trade out the balance of Italys navy because at 10 IPC it can’t buy a new navy as well as UK.

what do you think the results of the battle might be if the CV stays?

[MODEL]

@mike:

I agree with Calvinhobbesliker. The German ability to sink the entire RN is ridiculous and yet nobody complains. Italy loses 3 naval units and everybody cries havoc.  1 turn represents 3 months so 7 days w/o declaring war IS an insignificant amount of time.

The reason for this is that the sinking of the UK’s ships is by no means as likely as the sinking of the Italian fleet, even if all the UK’s ships are sunk is does not cripple the UK’s ability to fight. In the Europe game the UK’s primary objective is to prevent too many of its territories in Africa from falling to Italy. This is easily achievable even without the Home fleet. If the Germans threaten a Sealion then a UK1 Infantry spam will make them think twice.

As far as the Italians go its a different story. The Axis in the Global game start with a HUGE economic disadvantage, something like 66 IPCs vs 175 IPCs. That is about 23% of the totally IPCs on the Map compared with the 62% the Allies get. The point is that the Axis have to expand as quickly as possible to try and bridge the gap. Africa represents about 21 IPCs or so, a significant amount, but this UK1 attack against the Italians severely hampers the ability of the Axis to take much of Africa, add the India planes and it becomes practically impossible.

A lot of weight also seems to be being put on the Luftwaffe to bail the Italians out in the Med, but if Germany is attacking the UK fleet and preparing for a Sealion, just how many planes will really be available? So far in the games I have played the Germans have not lost any planes taking out UK navy, but what if 1 or even 2 get destroyed? That leaves you two to land on the carrier and around 4-5 to hit the Med UK/France fleet.

Its the Axis players all being pulled in different directions all at once whereas all the UK has to do in Europe is stop Italy from expanding in Africa which it can do comfortably. All the games I have been involved in have featured a UK1 attack against the Italy fleet even with Germany laying down a Carrier plus 2 transports. Italy has managed to take the Balkans and then its expansion has ground to a halt.

That’s the deal, even though intuitively losing the Home Fleet G1 seems like a huge hammer blow it does not have the potential to cripple the UK in the same way the Italy losing its fleets does. All that happens is the UK has to do things differently, whereas Italy is more confined in what it can do.

All we can do is pray to the dice gods and hope for the best……

[Stefano1189]

@calvinhobbesliker:

it destroyed the Italian fleet at Taranto(which the attack on Italian fleet represents)

historically this is incorrect, a battleship was sunk and British planes damaged other capital ships, but the Italian navy got some success later … the battle of Cape Matapan have decreed the decline of the Regia Marina in the Mediterranean.

With the armistice of 8th September 1943, the Allies were able to steal many important ships to the Fascists and the Germans to prevent these ships could fall into the hands of the allies, attacked the italian fleet, sinking the battleship “Roma” and other ships…

[bugoo]

It comes down to a trade, a trade of 1 UK carrier, cruiser, destroyer and 1-2 planes to kill an Italian BB, Cruiser, and transport, and the german planes used in the counter attack.  It is a trade because Germany should kill that fleet on the following turn at the cost of some planes.  Is it a good trade?  I don’t think so, as it means the Germans have no fear of any landings until turn 4 at the earliest in Europe.

If instead you retreat that carrier/destroyer to canada, combine it with some more ships built turn 1 (possibly another carrier, transport, and possibly a destroyer) and turn 2 you may have enough fleet to threaten a drop in Europe depending on the sea lion threat.  And on turn 3 you should be able to nab Norway.  Not to mention how many fewer warships the US will need and the larger quantity of transports/troops they can build.

Yes you slow down Italy, but in that area of the board Japan is the real threat, not Italy.  In addition, Italy is already vulnerable to begin with against the US.  And lastly, even without expanding beyond a 15 IPC income Italy is still a huge help as that’s 5 men helping to defend the coast, potential can opener troops, and acts as a magnet/stall for Germany.

I really think the can opener threat is not being truly appreciated in the game.  With 4 IPC mech infantry the Germans can really bring the threat.  A stack in Ukraine threatens both Stalingrad and Moscow.  Combine that with Leningrad falling early, which it should, and you have a huge German income.

[Noll]

I like the dow “fix”.

Btw, historically Taranto attack didn’t do much damage to the Italian fleet.
The only thing Taranto attack did was inspiring the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor, and when they did the americans convenientely “didn’t notice” the attack BUT the most important ships (the CVs) where OUT at that precise moment. There are people that think roosvelt knew about Pearl Harbor and liked the idea of it in order to get the consensus of declaring war to the axis.
After 8 september '43 the navy was ordered to go to Malta, and Roma was sunk by the Germans.

[Striker]

It appears the Italy fleet raid was intended.

From Larry’s forums: http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2537&start=8
@Striker:

I’ll be interested in hearing a reply from Larry or a playtester that says either “Yes, we intended that to be a possible opening move for Britain, duh.” or “Woops, we might have made and oversight there.”

@Krieghund:

Yes, we intended that to be a possible opening move for Britain, duh.

[UN Spacy]

@Imperious:

That’s exactly what you should NOT do is bring the CV in the battle.

Well the CV is for defense to protect the fleet from the other Italian units. I think the CV will survive the battle, while the idea is to trade out the balance of Italys navy because at 10 IPC it can’t buy a new navy as well as UK.

But it can certainly put ships in the Med much faster than the Brits. And, as always, the dice is always unpredictable; the most hits Italy can get is two hits. If the UK player takes out the destroyer and cruiser as casualties, that’s  going to severely limit its projection of power in the Med. If it takes out both air units, that’s two less air units that could have helped in the defense of Egypt, or protecting the French fleet.

If the carrier takes a hit, that also dooms the air units.

what do you think the results of the battle might be if the CV stays?

Less catastrophic for the British player, that’s for sure. If the Italians roll two hits and the British player is forced to take out the destroyer and cruiser, the carrier, in a NCM, can move with the French fleet and land the tactical bomber and fighter on it. Yes, Germany might attack it with its air force (again, this depends on how much of the air force was destroyed on G1), but a cruiser, destroyer, aircraft carrier, a fighter, and tactical bomber will be quite a match-up against an air attack, those precious Luftwaffe units that would be better off being transferred to the Eastern Front.