@freh Ok, I see it now. Pretty sneaky :)
An Easy Italian Fix
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Well, Germany usually takes Paris G1, so Italy declares war then, right?
in terms of history right. In the games terms this translates into Italy going active on her turn. ( at least it should work that way)
IN the game everything happens in sequence, so Italy though it plays after UK is really declaring war at the same time and making its attacks on its own turn. IN the game that is when it decides to attack, so UK should not have any ability to declare war first and attack first. Remember Italy declared war and not UK.
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So I don’t think we need to fix anything, at least not at the moment while everyone’s nitpicking everything. The attack on the Italian fleet is risky and can end in disaster for either side roughly equally. Why? Because of the dice.
Well not really. UK can potentially bring the CV, CA, DD, 1 tactical, 1 fighter and crush the larger Italian fleet. THat is if Germany does not build transports on her turn.
This is the crux of the issue. The game forces players into options in order to prevent glitches. If Italy was not at war till she starts her turn ( UK cant attack) this saves the game from this travesty.
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Well, the UK can attack (declare war) on Japan on any turn, why not Italy?
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@Imperious:
So I don’t think we need to fix anything, at least not at the moment while everyone’s nitpicking everything. The attack on the Italian fleet is risky and can end in disaster for either side roughly equally. Why? Because of the dice.
Well not really. UK can potentially bring the CV, CA, DD, 1 tactical, 1 fighter and crush the larger Italian fleet. THat is if Germany does not build transports on her turn.
This is the crux of the issue. The game forces players into options in order to prevent glitches. If Italy was not at war till she starts her turn ( UK cant attack) this saves the game from this travesty.
That’s exactly what you should NOT do is bring the CV in the battle. If it gets a hit, the planes will have no where to land and be destroyed. If you have your other ships take the damage (destroyer or cruiser), that’s one less warship that the British have against the Italian menace. Yes, the French fleet is there, but the Germans will attempt to wipe them out with a swarm of aircraft, along with any surviving British warships, and we never know for sure what the extent of the damage will be for either side because of the chaotic dice. So you’d have to have the hits go on the planes, which is just as bad because Britain needs air power to survive in Africa and the Med.
So the CV should NOT be in the battle at all, which leaves a cruiser, destroyer, a tactical bomber, and fighter vs. a cruiser and battleship. Again, the dice WILL play heavily into this battle; seven out of thirteen times the Italians gave the British a fatal beating for their attack. So it’s a huge risk that will increase the chance of success for the victor.
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That’s exactly what you should NOT do is bring the CV in the battle.
Well the CV is for defense to protect the fleet from the other Italian units. I think the CV will survive the battle, while the idea is to trade out the balance of Italys navy because at 10 IPC it can’t buy a new navy as well as UK.
what do you think the results of the battle might be if the CV stays?
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I agree with Calvinhobbesliker. The German ability to sink the entire RN is ridiculous and yet nobody complains. Italy loses 3 naval units and everybody cries havoc. 1 turn represents 3 months so 7 days w/o declaring war IS an insignificant amount of time.
The reason for this is that the sinking of the UK’s ships is by no means as likely as the sinking of the Italian fleet, even if all the UK’s ships are sunk is does not cripple the UK’s ability to fight. In the Europe game the UK’s primary objective is to prevent too many of its territories in Africa from falling to Italy. This is easily achievable even without the Home fleet. If the Germans threaten a Sealion then a UK1 Infantry spam will make them think twice.
As far as the Italians go its a different story. The Axis in the Global game start with a HUGE economic disadvantage, something like 66 IPCs vs 175 IPCs. That is about 23% of the totally IPCs on the Map compared with the 62% the Allies get. The point is that the Axis have to expand as quickly as possible to try and bridge the gap. Africa represents about 21 IPCs or so, a significant amount, but this UK1 attack against the Italians severely hampers the ability of the Axis to take much of Africa, add the India planes and it becomes practically impossible.
A lot of weight also seems to be being put on the Luftwaffe to bail the Italians out in the Med, but if Germany is attacking the UK fleet and preparing for a Sealion, just how many planes will really be available? So far in the games I have played the Germans have not lost any planes taking out UK navy, but what if 1 or even 2 get destroyed? That leaves you two to land on the carrier and around 4-5 to hit the Med UK/France fleet.
Its the Axis players all being pulled in different directions all at once whereas all the UK has to do in Europe is stop Italy from expanding in Africa which it can do comfortably. All the games I have been involved in have featured a UK1 attack against the Italy fleet even with Germany laying down a Carrier plus 2 transports. Italy has managed to take the Balkans and then its expansion has ground to a halt.
That’s the deal, even though intuitively losing the Home Fleet G1 seems like a huge hammer blow it does not have the potential to cripple the UK in the same way the Italy losing its fleets does. All that happens is the UK has to do things differently, whereas Italy is more confined in what it can do.
All we can do is pray to the dice gods and hope for the best……
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it destroyed the Italian fleet at Taranto(which the attack on Italian fleet represents)
historically this is incorrect, a battleship was sunk and British planes damaged other capital ships, but the Italian navy got some success later … the battle of Cape Matapan have decreed the decline of the Regia Marina in the Mediterranean.
With the armistice of 8th September 1943, the Allies were able to steal many important ships to the Fascists and the Germans to prevent these ships could fall into the hands of the allies, attacked the italian fleet, sinking the battleship “Roma” and other ships…
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It comes down to a trade, a trade of 1 UK carrier, cruiser, destroyer and 1-2 planes to kill an Italian BB, Cruiser, and transport, and the german planes used in the counter attack. It is a trade because Germany should kill that fleet on the following turn at the cost of some planes. Is it a good trade? I don’t think so, as it means the Germans have no fear of any landings until turn 4 at the earliest in Europe.
If instead you retreat that carrier/destroyer to canada, combine it with some more ships built turn 1 (possibly another carrier, transport, and possibly a destroyer) and turn 2 you may have enough fleet to threaten a drop in Europe depending on the sea lion threat. And on turn 3 you should be able to nab Norway. Not to mention how many fewer warships the US will need and the larger quantity of transports/troops they can build.
Yes you slow down Italy, but in that area of the board Japan is the real threat, not Italy. In addition, Italy is already vulnerable to begin with against the US. And lastly, even without expanding beyond a 15 IPC income Italy is still a huge help as that’s 5 men helping to defend the coast, potential can opener troops, and acts as a magnet/stall for Germany.
I really think the can opener threat is not being truly appreciated in the game. With 4 IPC mech infantry the Germans can really bring the threat. A stack in Ukraine threatens both Stalingrad and Moscow. Combine that with Leningrad falling early, which it should, and you have a huge German income.
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I like the dow “fix”.
Btw, historically Taranto attack didn’t do much damage to the Italian fleet.
The only thing Taranto attack did was inspiring the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor, and when they did the americans convenientely “didn’t notice” the attack BUT the most important ships (the CVs) where OUT at that precise moment. There are people that think roosvelt knew about Pearl Harbor and liked the idea of it in order to get the consensus of declaring war to the axis.
After 8 september '43 the navy was ordered to go to Malta, and Roma was sunk by the Germans. -
It appears the Italy fleet raid was intended.
From Larry’s forums: http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2537&start=8
@Striker:I’ll be interested in hearing a reply from Larry or a playtester that says either “Yes, we intended that to be a possible opening move for Britain, duh.” or “Woops, we might have made and oversight there.”
Yes, we intended that to be a possible opening move for Britain, duh.
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@Imperious:
That’s exactly what you should NOT do is bring the CV in the battle.
Well the CV is for defense to protect the fleet from the other Italian units. I think the CV will survive the battle, while the idea is to trade out the balance of Italys navy because at 10 IPC it can’t buy a new navy as well as UK.
But it can certainly put ships in the Med much faster than the Brits. And, as always, the dice is always unpredictable; the most hits Italy can get is two hits. If the UK player takes out the destroyer and cruiser as casualties, that’s going to severely limit its projection of power in the Med. If it takes out both air units, that’s two less air units that could have helped in the defense of Egypt, or protecting the French fleet.
If the carrier takes a hit, that also dooms the air units.
what do you think the results of the battle might be if the CV stays?
Less catastrophic for the British player, that’s for sure. If the Italians roll two hits and the British player is forced to take out the destroyer and cruiser, the carrier, in a NCM, can move with the French fleet and land the tactical bomber and fighter on it. Yes, Germany might attack it with its air force (again, this depends on how much of the air force was destroyed on G1), but a cruiser, destroyer, aircraft carrier, a fighter, and tactical bomber will be quite a match-up against an air attack, those precious Luftwaffe units that would be better off being transferred to the Eastern Front.
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It appears the Italy fleet raid was intended.
From Larry’s forums: http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2537&start=8
@Striker:I’ll be interested in hearing a reply from Larry or a playtester that says either “Yes, we intended that to be a possible opening move for Britain, duh.” or “Woops, we might have made and oversight there.”
Yes, we intended that to be a possible opening move for Britain, duh.
The key words here are “intended”, which is what you choose to use; the other is “possible”, which is what Krieghund used. I think this game was very well playtested(other than AAP40 aircraft that can effect the Euro side). The play testers made all sorts of things “possible” to give players many interesting things to think about. I think the UK spending its naval assets like that in the Med is a foolish move…they dont have much in the way of navy after G1 and do not have many IPC’s to re-build a serious task force…as well, they have non-navel demands on their IPC’s. Dont do it, its a trap!
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The british should do the Italian raid every game, and NCM the carrier to the french fleet. Most of the time the UK will with with 1 tac, 1 ftr to land on the carrier. If the germans want to attack 1 DD, 1 CA, 1 CV, 1 Tac, 1 Ftr with air, than so be it- they will lose 2-3 aircraft in the first round, with another 1-2 in the second round (depending on how many hits the germans get). If the German airforce is depleted that much, then subsequent UK builds are much safer.
Of course if the Germans build 1 CV, 2 Transports round 1, then the Tac will be needed in the defense of Great Britain…
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The british should do the Italian raid every game, and NCM the carrier to the french fleet. Most of the time the UK will with with 1 tac, 1 ftr to land on the carrier. If the germans want to attack 1 DD, 1 CA, 1 CV, 1 Tac, 1 Ftr with air, than so be it- they will lose 2-3 aircraft in the first round, with another 1-2 in the second round (depending on how many hits the germans get). If the German airforce is depleted that much, then subsequent UK builds are much safer.
Of course if the Germans build 1 CV, 2 Transports round 1, then the Tac will be needed in the defense of Great Britain…
They WILL lose 2-3 aircraft? I don’t think so. The dice, as I’ve said for the umpteenth time, can be very unpredictable.
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The british should do the Italian raid every game, and NCM the carrier to the french fleet. Most of the time the UK will with with 1 tac, 1 ftr to land on the carrier. If the germans want to attack 1 DD, 1 CA, 1 CV, 1 Tac, 1 Ftr with air, than so be it- they will lose 2-3 aircraft in the first round, with another 1-2 in the second round (depending on how many hits the germans get). If the German airforce is depleted that much, then subsequent UK builds are much safer.
Of course if the Germans build 1 CV, 2 Transports round 1, then the Tac will be needed in the defense of Great Britain…
Last week several of us here played out that scenario and it ended badly for the Allies. Its worth it for Germany to lose 2-3 aircraft to help the Italians clear the Med. Depending on the first round die rolls, the Germans need not finish the job, they can leave that to the Italians who have 1CA, 1DD, 2FTR’s to mop up.
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Yes, but is it worse for Italy to rule the med with 2 Transports from turn 1? I think you lose Cairo pretty fast- and thus lose Africa- killing UK’s income (and hence fleet making abilities).
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Yes, but is it worse for Italy to rule the med with 2 Transports from turn 1? I think you lose Cairo pretty fast- and thus lose Africa- killing UK’s income (and hence fleet making abilities).
Italy should take Egypt anyway. Our game did’nt get that far. I had only 1 TRS(took Transjordan), but the UK had to evacuate Egypt or lose everything there on I2. I would rally all UK remaining ships probably off the coast of S. Africa(IC to add stuff to the fleet), bring the CA, TRS in the Med south, the CA off the coast of S. America, DD already at S. Africa…any UK naval units from the Pacific…that would be: 1CV(FTR/TAC), 2CA’s, 2DD’s, 1TRS, plus Pacific side assets that I wont list since that depends on Japan…then add what would probably be 2+ SUBs and 1 or 2 more TRS…now you have a task force and can go where you want without much fear.
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So, if we go with this, when does Italy go to war if Paris doesn’t fall?
Can it stay out of the war indefinitely?
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No Italy is at war on HER first turn. She is not at war on UK’s turn.
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UK should be able to attack anyone she sees as a threat. Hell, they can attack Japan on ANY turn.
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