An Easy Italian Fix

[Imperious Leader]

The game starts on June 3, 1940, right after Dunkirk. Italy declared war 7 days later. Insignificant amount of time.

Italy didn’t play its turn yet, so why is she at war with UK and has done nothing to provoke anybody?

It should be that on HER turn the war is started.

In aa50-41, US starts out at war even though it’s b4 pearl

This is a different game, no relation and its also out of print. If something happened in Chess would it apply to checkers?

If something happened in AAE would it apply to AAE40?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Imperious:

The game starts on June 3, 1940, right after Dunkirk. Italy declared war 7 days later. Insignificant amount of time.

Italy didn’t play its turn yet, so why is she at war with UK and has done nothing to provoke anybody?

It should be that on HER turn the war is started.

In aa50-41, US starts out at war even though it’s b4 pearl

This is a different game, no relation and its also out of print. If something happened in Chess would it apply to checkers?

If something happened in AAE would it apply to AAE40?

At least the attack on the Italian fleet represents a historical battle. What does the sinking of the entire north atlantic RN refer to?

France also didn’t play its turn yet, and it didn’t do anything to provoke Germany

[cond1024]

France also didn’t play its turn yet, and it didn’t do anything to provoke Germany

Well they declared war on Germany in September 1939 along with Britian after Germany invaded Poland.
So yes they did provoke Germany.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@cond1024:

France also didn’t play its turn yet, and it didn’t do anything to provoke Germany

Well they declared war on Germany in September 1939 along with Britian after Germany invaded Poland.
So yes they did provoke Germany.

And Italy declared war as well 7 days after the start date of the game. Since the turn length is 3 months, this is one twelfth of a turn after the start of the game, which is before Germany’s turn ends. Italy declared war as soon as Paris was evacuated, right? Italy sees Germany take Paris and immediately declares war during Germany’s turn

[Imperious Leader]

And Italy declared war as well 7 days after the start date of the game. Since the turn length is 3 months

Each game turn is 6 months long, not 3.

Italy was going to sit out the war as she did in 1914, and wanted to see a decisive result before committing. Il Duce saw that my June Hitler was doing much better and Italy wanted a place at the peace table so they attacked on their turn. It was not the case that England decided to attack Italy before Italy made up its own mind.

[mike b]

I agree with Calvinhobbesliker. The German ability to sink the entire RN is ridiculous and yet nobody complains. Italy loses 3 naval units and everybody cries havoc.  1 turn represents 3 months so 7 days w/o declaring war IS an insignificant amount of time.

[Imperious Leader]

Yea so make Italy neutral till THEY decide they want to go to war or until Paris falls.

Problem solved and Germany does not have to buy a fleet just to save the Italian navy and force UK to go back to UK to prevent this.

Anything that forces a scripted move to save a position from demise of turn 1 should not be in any design.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Imperious:

Yea so make Italy neutral till THEY decide they want to go to war or until Paris falls.

Problem solved and Germany does not have to buy a fleet just to save the Italian navy and force UK to go back to UK to prevent this.

Anything that forces a scripted move to save a position from demise of turn 1 should not be in any design.

Just because the Italians lose their fleet doesn’t mean the axis lose.

[lnmajor]

IL, why didnt you suggest this? Isnt Italy activated after Paris falling your rule from your 39-45 deluxe world at war game? that works real well.

[Imperious Leader]

IL, why didnt you suggest this? Isnt Italy activated after Paris falling your rule from your 39-45 deluxe world at war game? that works real well.

Yes thats why i am saying the same thing here. Italy is activated into war once paris falls. That is exactly what i am saying. Calvin wants UK to be able to attack them first, but thats not how the war went.

Again Italy is only at war when she starts the war after France falls. The game turns are happening at the same time in reality even though in the game they are in sequence, so when Italy decides its time it will begin its war. UK has no say in the matter and is in no position to attack Italy just because she can.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Imperious:

IL, why didnt you suggest this? Isnt Italy activated after Paris falling your rule from your 39-45 deluxe world at war game? that works real well.

Yes thats why i am saying the same thing here. Italy is activated into war once paris falls. That is exactly what i am saying. Calvin wants UK to be able to attack them first, but thats not how the war went.

Again Italy is only at war when she starts the war after France falls. The game turns are happening at the same time in reality even though in the game they are in sequence, so when Italy decides its time it will begin its war. UK has no say in the matter and is in no position to attack Italy just because she can.

Well, Germany usually takes Paris G1, so Italy declares war then, right?

[UN Spacy]

Just because the Italians lose their fleet doesn’t mean the axis lose.

Agreed.

But seriously, Italy is not broken. At all. I understand that the game is only days old, and that people should nitpick it as much as possible, but I hope they understand that in Europe, there is really no right or wrong strategy. Everything has its pros and cons.

For example, a UK1 attack on the Italian fleet.

Pros: Destroys half of the Italian naval prescense, has support of the French fleet, prevents Italy from reinforcing Africa (temporarily perhaps), and from getting its NO.

Cons: The Germans can definitely strike at the Allied navy from France if it wanted to with the Luftwaffe (given it survived relatively intact in the attack on France and the British navy), sinking a CV, fighter, tac. bomber, cruiser and destroyer, giving the Italians plenty of time to re-build its fleet while the Brits have little to no naval prescense in the Med now.

HOWEVER: the other thing is the dice. THE DICE. The dice decides the battles. Strategies are one thing, but rolling the dice truly decides the fate of battles. I can list every pro and con of attacking the Italian fleet on UK1, but they can all suddenly be null and void if the dice leans towards one or the other. I’ve had an instance in my last Global game (not the incredibly slow one I’m playing online right now  :roll:) where the British attackers on the Italian fleet was mortally wounded, with only a fighter surviving (where it thereafter was destroyed because it could not land anywhere). I’ve run multiple simulations after that game on a British attack on the Italian fleet, and the Italians survived relatively intact seven out of thirteen times while inflicting horrendous losses on the British.

So I don’t think we need to fix anything, at least not at the moment while everyone’s nitpicking everything. The attack on the Italian fleet is risky and can end in disaster for either side roughly equally. Why? Because of the dice.

[lnmajor]

Great point Spacy!
The dice are the be all,end all of this game. The fate of the dice are like the unpredictability of real war. It creates the individuality of each and every game and strategy, no matter how well planned. besides who doesnt love drinking beer,rolling dice,and conquering the world on a Saturday night.
“Saturday nights allright for fightin”- Elton John :-D

[calvinhobbesliker]

@UN:

Just because the Italians lose their fleet doesn’t mean the axis lose.

Agreed.

But seriously, Italy is not broken. At all. I understand that the game is only days old, and that people should nitpick it as much as possible, but I hope they understand that in Europe, there is really no right or wrong strategy. Everything has its pros and cons.

For example, a UK1 attack on the Italian fleet.

Pros: Destroys half of the Italian naval prescense, has support of the French fleet, prevents Italy from reinforcing Africa (temporarily perhaps), and from getting its NO.

Cons: The Germans can definitely strike at the Allied navy from France if it wanted to with the Luftwaffe (given it survived relatively intact in the attack on France and the British navy), sinking a CV, fighter, tac. bomber, cruiser and destroyer, giving the Italians plenty of time to re-build its fleet while the Brits have little to no naval prescense in the Med now.

HOWEVER: the other thing is the dice. THE DICE. The dice decides the battles. Strategies are one thing, but rolling the dice truly decides the fate of battles. I can list every pro and con of attacking the Italian fleet on UK1, but they can all suddenly be null and void if the dice leans towards one or the other. I’ve had an instance in my last Global game (not the incredibly slow one I’m playing online right now  :roll:) where the British attackers on the Italian fleet was mortally wounded, with only a fighter surviving (where it thereafter was destroyed because it could not land anywhere). I’ve run multiple simulations after that game on a British attack on the Italian fleet, and the Italians survived relatively intact seven out of thirteen times while inflicting horrendous losses on the British.

So I don’t think we need to fix anything, at least not at the moment while everyone’s nitpicking everything. The attack on the Italian fleet is risky and can end in disaster for either side roughly equally. Why? Because of the dice.

I JUST lost a Taranto battle, damaging the BB while losing everything except the ftr. I rolled 1@2, 3@3, and 2@4, and I could only get 1 hit. He rolled 2@3 and 2@4 and got 3 hits.

[UN Spacy]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@UN:

Just because the Italians lose their fleet doesn’t mean the axis lose.

Agreed.

But seriously, Italy is not broken. At all. I understand that the game is only days old, and that people should nitpick it as much as possible, but I hope they understand that in Europe, there is really no right or wrong strategy. Everything has its pros and cons.

For example, a UK1 attack on the Italian fleet.

Pros: Destroys half of the Italian naval prescense, has support of the French fleet, prevents Italy from reinforcing Africa (temporarily perhaps), and from getting its NO.

Cons: The Germans can definitely strike at the Allied navy from France if it wanted to with the Luftwaffe (given it survived relatively intact in the attack on France and the British navy), sinking a CV, fighter, tac. bomber, cruiser and destroyer, giving the Italians plenty of time to re-build its fleet while the Brits have little to no naval prescense in the Med now.

HOWEVER: the other thing is the dice. THE DICE. The dice decides the battles. Strategies are one thing, but rolling the dice truly decides the fate of battles. I can list every pro and con of attacking the Italian fleet on UK1, but they can all suddenly be null and void if the dice leans towards one or the other. I’ve had an instance in my last Global game (not the incredibly slow one I’m playing online right now  :roll:) where the British attackers on the Italian fleet was mortally wounded, with only a fighter surviving (where it thereafter was destroyed because it could not land anywhere). I’ve run multiple simulations after that game on a British attack on the Italian fleet, and the Italians survived relatively intact seven out of thirteen times while inflicting horrendous losses on the British.

So I don’t think we need to fix anything, at least not at the moment while everyone’s nitpicking everything. The attack on the Italian fleet is risky and can end in disaster for either side roughly equally. Why? Because of the dice.

I JUST lost a Taranto battle, damaging the BB while losing everything except the ftr. I rolled 1@2, 3@3, and 2@4, and I could only get 1 hit. He rolled 2@3 and 2@4 and got 3 hits.

What was up against what, exactly? I thought the Western Italian fleet only has a battleship and cruiser? :?

[Imperious Leader]

Well, Germany usually takes Paris G1, so Italy declares war then, right?

in terms of history right. In the games terms this translates into Italy going active on her turn. ( at least it should work that way)

IN the game everything happens in sequence, so Italy though it plays after UK is really declaring war at the same time and making its attacks on its own turn. IN the game that is when it decides to attack, so UK should not have any ability to declare war first and attack first. Remember Italy declared war and not UK.

[Imperious Leader]

So I don’t think we need to fix anything, at least not at the moment while everyone’s nitpicking everything. The attack on the Italian fleet is risky and can end in disaster for either side roughly equally. Why? Because of the dice.

Well not really. UK can potentially bring the CV, CA, DD, 1 tactical, 1 fighter and crush the larger Italian fleet. THat is if Germany does not build transports on her turn.

This is the crux of the issue. The game forces players into options in order to prevent glitches. If Italy was not at war till she starts her turn ( UK cant attack) this saves the game from this travesty.

[BJCard]

Well, the UK can attack (declare war) on Japan on any turn, why not Italy?

[UN Spacy]

@Imperious:

So I don’t think we need to fix anything, at least not at the moment while everyone’s nitpicking everything. The attack on the Italian fleet is risky and can end in disaster for either side roughly equally. Why? Because of the dice.

Well not really. UK can potentially bring the CV, CA, DD, 1 tactical, 1 fighter and crush the larger Italian fleet. THat is if Germany does not build transports on her turn.

This is the crux of the issue. The game forces players into options in order to prevent glitches. If Italy was not at war till she starts her turn ( UK cant attack) this saves the game from this travesty.

That’s exactly what you should NOT do is bring the CV in the battle. If it gets a hit, the planes will have no where to land and be destroyed. If you have your other ships take the damage (destroyer or cruiser), that’s one less warship that the British have against the Italian menace. Yes, the French fleet is there, but the Germans will attempt to wipe them out with a swarm of aircraft, along with any surviving British warships, and we never know for sure what the extent of the damage will be for either side because of the chaotic dice. So you’d have to have the hits go on the planes, which is just as bad because  Britain needs air power to survive in Africa and the Med.

So the CV should NOT be in the battle at all, which leaves a cruiser, destroyer, a tactical bomber, and fighter vs. a cruiser and battleship. Again, the dice WILL play heavily into this battle; seven out of thirteen times the Italians gave the British a fatal beating for their attack. So it’s a huge risk that will increase the chance of success for the victor.

[Imperious Leader]

That’s exactly what you should NOT do is bring the CV in the battle.

Well the CV is for defense to protect the fleet from the other Italian units. I think the CV will survive the battle, while the idea is to trade out the balance of Italys navy because at 10 IPC it can’t buy a new navy as well as UK.

what do you think the results of the battle might be if the CV stays?