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PTV Daaras (x+12) vs General Disarray
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Game History
Round: 1 Purchase Units - ANZAC ANZAC buy 1 artillery and 2 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; Combat Move - ANZAC Combat - ANZAC Non Combat Move - ANZAC 1 infantry moved from Malaya to Shan State 1 transport moved from 64 Sea Zone to 65 Sea Zone 1 infantry moved from New Zealand to 65 Sea Zone 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 65 Sea Zone to 64 Sea Zone 1 destroyer moved from 64 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone 1 cruiser moved from 65 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone 2 fighters moved from New Zealand to Queensland 2 aaGuns and 2 infantry moved from New South Wales to Queensland 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 64 Sea Zone to 55 Sea Zone 1 infantry moved from 55 Sea Zone to Queensland Place Units - ANZAC 1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in New South Wales Turn Complete - ANZAC ANZAC collect 10 PUs; end with 10 PUs Politics - French Trigger Axis Conquer All France Algeria 3 Infantry Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 infantry placed in Algeria Trigger Axis Conquer All France Cruiser Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 cruiser placed in 95 Sea Zone Trigger Axis Conquer All France Tunisia 3 Infantry Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 infantry placed in Tunisia Trigger Axis Conquer All France Destroyer Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 destroyer placed in 95 Sea Zone Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Infantry Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 infantry placed in Southern France Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Artillery Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 artillery placed in Southern France Trigger Axis Conquer All France Morocco 3 Infantry Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 infantry placed in Morocco Trigger Axis Conquer All France Syria 3 Infantry Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 infantry placed in Syria Trigger Axis Conquer All France French West Africa 3 Infantry Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 infantry placed in French West Africa Trigger Axis Conquer All France Tunisia 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Tunisia 3 Trigger Axis Conquer All France Tunisia 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory Tunisia Trigger Axis Conquer All France French West Africa 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France French West Africa 3 Trigger Axis Conquer All France French West Africa 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory French West Africa Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Central Africa 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Central Africa 3 Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Central Africa 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory French Central Africa Trigger Axis Conquer All France Algeria 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Algeria 3 Trigger Axis Conquer All France Algeria 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory Algeria Trigger Axis Conquer All France Syria 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Syria 3 Trigger Axis Conquer All France Syria 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory Syria Trigger Axis Conquer All France Morocco 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Morocco 3 Trigger Axis Conquer All France Morocco 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory Morocco Trigger Axis Conquer All France Algeria 3 Infantry Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Algeria 3 Infantry Remove Trigger Axis Conquer All France Algeria 3 Infantry Remove: has removed 1 infantry owned by French in Algeria Trigger Axis Conquer All France Cruiser Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Cruiser Remove Trigger Axis Conquer All France Cruiser Remove: has removed 1 cruiser owned by French in 95 Sea Zone Trigger Axis Conquer All France Tunisia 3 Infantry Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Tunisia 3 Infantry Remove Trigger Axis Conquer All France Tunisia 3 Infantry Remove: has removed 1 infantry owned by French in Tunisia Trigger Axis Conquer All France Destroyer Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Destroyer Remove Trigger Axis Conquer All France Destroyer Remove: has removed 1 destroyer owned by French in 95 Sea Zone Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Infantry Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Infantry Remove Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Infantry Remove: has removed 1 infantry owned by French in Southern France Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Artillery Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Artillery Remove Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Artillery Remove: has removed 1 artillery owned by French in Southern France Trigger Axis Conquer All France Morocco 3 Infantry Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Morocco 3 Infantry Remove Trigger Axis Conquer All France Morocco 3 Infantry Remove: has removed 1 infantry owned by French in Morocco Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Madagascar 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Madagascar 3 Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Madagascar 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory French Madagascar Trigger Axis Conquer All France Syria 3 Infantry Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Syria 3 Infantry Remove Trigger Axis Conquer All France Syria 3 Infantry Remove: has removed 1 infantry owned by French in Syria Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory Southern France Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Indo China 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Indo China 3 Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Indo China 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory French Indo China Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Guiana 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Guiana 3 Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Guiana 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory French Guiana Trigger Axis Conquer All France French West Africa 3 Infantry Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France French West Africa 3 Infantry Remove Trigger Axis Conquer All France French West Africa 3 Infantry Remove: has removed 1 infantry owned by French in French West Africa Combat Move - French 1 fighter moved from United Kingdom to Iceland Non Combat Move - French 1 destroyer moved from 74 Sea Zone to 83 Sea Zone Turn Complete - FrenchCombat Hit Differential Summary :
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TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: Germans round 2
TripleA Manual Gamesave Post for game: WW2 Path to Victory
Game History
Round: 2 Research Technology - Germans Purchase Units - Germans Germans buy 2 destroyers, 1 fighter, 1 infantry, 6 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber; Remaining resources: 2 PUs; Trigger Germans 6 Atlantic Wall Established Switch: Setting switch to true for conditionAttachment_Germans_6_Atlantic_Wall_Possible_Switch attached to Germans Politics - Germans Trigger Vichy France Has Occurred: Setting switch to false for conditionAttachment_French_Territory_May_Turn_Vichy_Switch attached to French Combat Move - Germans 1 submarine moved from 109 Sea Zone to 126 Sea Zone 2 submarines moved from 115 Sea Zone to 126 Sea Zone 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 115 Sea Zone to 126 Sea Zone 2 bombers moved from Western Germany to 126 Sea Zone 2 transports moved from 115 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone 1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Normandy Bordeaux to 113 Sea Zone 1 artillery, 2 infantry and 2 transports moved from 113 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone 1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 93 Sea Zone to Gibraltar Combat - GermansCombat Hit Differential Summary :
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@GeneralDisarray scrambles?
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@Daaras Full scramble off iceland.
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TripleA Turn Summary: Germans round 2
TripleA Turn Summary for game: WW2 Path to Victory
Game History
Round: 2 Research Technology - Germans Purchase Units - Germans Germans buy 2 destroyers, 1 fighter, 1 infantry, 6 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber; Remaining resources: 2 PUs; Trigger Germans 6 Atlantic Wall Established Switch: Setting switch to true for conditionAttachment_Germans_6_Atlantic_Wall_Possible_Switch attached to Germans Politics - Germans Trigger Vichy France Has Occurred: Setting switch to false for conditionAttachment_French_Territory_May_Turn_Vichy_Switch attached to French Combat Move - Germans 1 submarine moved from 109 Sea Zone to 126 Sea Zone 2 submarines moved from 115 Sea Zone to 126 Sea Zone 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 115 Sea Zone to 126 Sea Zone 2 bombers moved from Western Germany to 126 Sea Zone 2 transports moved from 115 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone 1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Normandy Bordeaux to 113 Sea Zone 1 artillery, 2 infantry and 2 transports moved from 113 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone 1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 93 Sea Zone to Gibraltar Combat - Germans British scrambles 3 units out of Iceland to defend against the attack in 126 Sea Zone Battle in Gibraltar Battle in 126 Sea Zone Germans attack with 2 bombers, 1 fighter, 3 submarines and 1 tactical_bomber British defend with 1 battleship, 1 destroyer, 2 fighters and 1 transport; French defend with 1 fighter Germans roll dice for 3 submarines in 126 Sea Zone, round 2 : 3/3 hits, 1.00 expected hits Germans roll dice for 2 bombers, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber in 126 Sea Zone, round 2 : 3/4 hits, 2.17 expected hits British roll dice for 1 battleship, 1 destroyer, 3 fighters and 1 transport in 126 Sea Zone, round 2 : 5/5 hits, 3.00 expected hits 3 submarines owned by the Germans, 1 fighter owned by the Germans and 1 tactical_bomber owned by the Germans lost in 126 Sea Zone 1 destroyer owned by the British, 1 fighter owned by the French, 1 battleship owned by the British and 2 fighters owned by the British lost in 126 Sea Zone 1 transport owned by the British lost in 126 Sea Zone Germans win, taking Gibraltar from British with 2 bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 24 Casualties for Germans: 1 fighter, 3 submarines and 1 tactical_bomber Casualties for British: 1 battleship, 1 destroyer, 2 fighters and 1 transport Casualties for French: 1 fighter Non Combat Move - Germans 2 bombers moved from 126 Sea Zone to Norway 1 infantry moved from 93 Sea Zone to Morocco Germans take Morocco from Neutral_Axis 1 carrier and 1 cruiser moved from 115 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone 1 tactical_bomber moved from Holland Belgium to 93 Sea Zone 1 fighter moved from Southern Italy to 93 Sea Zone 3 armour, 2 artilleries and 9 infantry moved from Yugoslavia to Romania 2 infantry moved from Western Germany to Germany 1 aaGun moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium 1 aaGun and 1 infantry moved from Holland Belgium to Normandy Bordeaux 2 aaGuns moved from Western Germany to Germany 3 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers moved from Western Germany to Southern Italy 3 armour and 3 mech_infantrys moved from France to Germany 3 armour moved from Holland Belgium to Germany 1 artillery moved from Holland Belgium to France 1 submarine moved from 93 Sea Zone to 112 Sea Zone Place Units - Germans 6 mech_infantrys placed in Germany 1 fighter, 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber placed in Western Germany 2 destroyers placed in 115 Sea Zone Germans undo move 2. 1 fighter, 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber placed in France Germans undo move 3. 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber placed in Western Germany Germans undo move 3. Turning on Edit Mode EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from Finland: 3 infantry EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to Norway: 3 infantry EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode 1 fighter, 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber placed in France Turn Complete - Germans Germans collect 41 PUs; end with 43 PUs Trigger Germans 7 Atlantic Wall: Germans met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 46 PUs Trigger Germans 5 Swedish Iron Ore: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 51 PUs Objective Germans 1 Trade with Russia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 56 PUsCombat Hit Differential Summary :
Germans regular : 2.83 British regular : 2.00 -
@GeneralDisarray all the red dice lol
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Game History
Round: 2 Purchase Units - Russians Russians buy 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 9 infantry and 1 mech_infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; Combat Move - Russians Combat - Russians Non Combat Move - Russians 2 aaGuns, 3 artilleries and 14 infantry moved from Leningrad to Northern Belarus 2 aaGuns, 1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Bryansk to Kursk 5 infantry moved from Russia to Bryansk 1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Northern Belarus to Leningrad 2 infantry moved from Northern Caucasus to Rostov 3 infantry moved from Sakha to Amur 2 aaGuns and 12 infantry moved from Buryatia to Amur 1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Ukraine to Kursk 1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Kursk to Bryansk Place Units - Russians 3 infantry placed in Leningrad 2 artilleries and 1 infantry placed in Ukraine Russians undo move 2. 1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Ukraine 1 armour, 1 artillery, 4 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in Russia Turn Complete - Russians Russians collect 46 PUs; end with 46 PUsCombat Hit Differential Summary :
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@GeneralDisarray I didn’t look at your ANZAC moves until now, and I think we’re going to need to have a rules conversation. Are you under the impression that I am not allowed to move my units if Japan declares on ANZAC? Somewhat similar to a sneaky Karl?
I’m not entirely sure as to what the rule is, and I’ve been trying to find an answer and I found this in an old sneaky karl thread: https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/34014/the-sneaky-carl/19
" Once a state of war is entered into, all
territories and sea zones controlled by or containing
units belonging to the power or powers on which you
declared war instantly become hostile to your units,
and the normal restrictions of moving into or through
hostile spaces apply, with one exception. During
your Combat Move phase in which you entered into
a state of war, your transports that are already in sea
zones that have just become hostile may be loaded in
those sea zones (but not in other hostile sea zones).
In effect, transports may be loaded in their initial
sea zones for amphibious assaults before war is
declared, while the sea zone is still friendly."The Pripet Martian asks:
Just to clarify, does this mean that:A) Transports can load, leave the sea zone in combat movement to avoid participation in the attack, end their movement in a friendly sea zone and offload.
B) Transports leaving a sea zone in combat movement to avoid participation in the attack cannot load.
C) Transports leaving a sea zone in combat movement to avoid participation in the attack may load first, but may only offload in an amphibious assault.
D) Another possible scenario I’ve overlooked?Panther’s answers to the above:
A: No. Loading a transport during Combat Move Phase is only possible when it prepares an amphibious assault during that same turn.
B: No, They can load, but only for an amphibious assault during the same turn.
C : Almost. In case they load they must offload for an amphibious assault.
D : They can leave unloaded, too, and in that case can end their movement in a friendly sea zone.So if I am understanding this correctly (feel free to correct me, or bring in a rules expert to help us) I am allowed to load, my TT’s, and move them for an amphib assault elsewhere. What do you think?
I will most certainly allow you to edit your anzac turn if this is the case.
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@Daaras This is a rule I was told that stands in the 20 years I have been playing because of the wording in the rules. And not because some player says otherwise. You cannot participate in an amphibious assault after creating and leaving a hostile sea zone. Now you can pick up and drop if you do not leave the sea zone. But because my boats are there and you declare war it becomes a hostile sea zone. Even you read the rule out in your message. Can’t tell how many time I’ve been stumped by this rule. If you wish to move your units differently not being at war beside with France then you are welcome to. I am welcome to hear gammerman’s opinion on this not some random players.
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@GeneralDisarray I’ll tag him and ask. I don’t really care what the rule is, I just want to get it correct.
@gamerman01 can you help up with this rules situation?
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Hi guys, thanks for bringing me in,
Panther is an official Q&A man, too, and his answers A, B, C, D all look correct to me.
My goal is to answer the rulebook questions you have, so I may not explain every angle unless you ask follow up questions.
I need to say I am not sure what GeneralDisarray meant, at times, like with the phrase “creating and leaving a hostile zone”, so I am not really responding to everything you each have said but I think my answers will take care of your needs.
I am using the Europe 2nd edition rulebook and I think Daaras posted 2nd edition Pacific which is fine, same rules, but my page number won’t coincide.
The end of page 13 and beginning of page 14 covers “sea units starting in enemy-occupied sea zones”.
The page 12 blue box explains how to apply this rule when you first declare war.
I’ll just try to clearly apply these rules to your situation here, and if you have additional questions I’d be happy to help.
I see GeneralDisarray moved an ANZ cruiser to New Hebrides and a destroyer to Paulau/Carolines. In each of these zones, Japan has ground units on islands and none on transports.
This creates issues for Japan.
Of course if Japan does not declare war J2, then the ANZ ships are neutral, not at war, and have no effect.But of course the question is if Japan declares war against UK/ANZAC on J2, what are the effects of these ANZ ships.
The Page 12 rules apply since Japan is declaring war. “During your Combat Move phase in which you entered into a state of war, your transports that are already in sea zones that have just become hostile may be loaded in those sea zones (but not in other hostile sea zones). In effect, transports may be loaded in their initial sea zones for amphibious assaults before war is declared, while the sea zone is friendly.”
So, the rule page that Daaras posted.
Cruisers act as transports in PtV.
So in each of the sea zones ANZ intruded upon, you have the same situation for Japan if Japan declares war on UK/ANZ
(Bullet points on page 14) These are Japan’s choices:
- Stay in the zone and conduct combat
- Leave zone, load units if desired, conduct combat elsewhere
- Leave zone, to load units or to establish a retreat route, return to zone and conduct combat
- Leave zone and don’t conduct combat
Then you add in the rule for a new DOW,
Japan can load ground units in the zone, which is normally not allowed, but only for amphibious assaults.
The other 4 bullet points of page 14 still apply. -
I should mention that “evil sneaky Karl move” is most likely the notorious loophole in the rules.
This does NOT apply in your situation here.Because the political status of UK is married to ANZ, then there is the loophole that the UK could sail a surface warship into a Japanese fleet that is clearly looking to load up a huge army onto multiple transports and go take over lots of territory. Then ANZ does the unprovoked declaration of war on Japan, so when we get to poor Japan’s turn, she is not allowed to use the page 12 rule of loading transports for amphibious assault when you’ve just declared war on a power, because she can’t declare war on the UK. Thanks to ANZ, the UK/ANZ was already at war with Japan when we came to Japan’s turn, so Japan can’t declare war on UK/ANZ and the page 12 rule won’t apply.
It is unfortunate, but if both players understand this rule, it can be dealt with. #1 There are serious ramifications to an unprovoked DOW on Japan, especially early.
#2 Japan could leave some ground units on the tranports.Again, I only mention this “loophole” in case it is contributing at all to the confusion.
There was no UK involvement like this and no ANZ DOW in your game -
Lastly, because I think it may help and possibly be appreciated, I’ll state it in a negative way.
What harm did the cold, calculating veteran GeneralDisarray cause?
IF Japan declares war on UK/ANZ, then
- Japan can’t noncombat move any of the ground units on Carolines or New Hebrides. To get the marine off New Hebrides this turn, Japan has to amphibiously assault some other enemy island
- Japan can’t use transports to noncombat move OTHER ground units, for example, Japan can’t transport any ground from Japan to Korea, Manchuria, or any of the other friendly territories up there
- Japan has to move all ships in the enemy zones to destination zones without seeing combat results (where destination could include the starting, hostile, zone)
But…
Japan can still fully load up all 3 transports with Carolines army and go take Allied territories.Any remaining questions, please give me a chance to clear them up, have fun guys
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@gamerman01 Alright, thank you sir!
I’m going to let him make some edits, because his moves clearly show the intent of not letting my amphibious assault elsewhere. I don’t want to pillage Sydney because of a silly rule like this.
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@Daaras Its my fault for not knowing the rules I suppose. I have been stopped a few times like this and it’s frustrating. Not knowing this rule I would have done America differently as well. You can take this game as well for that as it would seemingly be too much to unwind. Gg glad I learned something. I’ll post it up soon.
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@GeneralDisarray I don’t mind if you want to edit back to USA1. I like to play the game, not have things like this ruin it. I’d also be fine if you wanted to post it and unwind from usa1. I’m not malicious, lets just have some fun.
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@GeneralDisarray I hope you’ll reconsider giving up the game, and go back to US1
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@gamerman01 Both generous so I will continue. That said if you did not know the rules and asked to stay loaded up on your tt instead I am not sure I would have extended the courtesy nor has it ever been extended to me. Fight on appreciate the pass.
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