League General Discussion Thread

[mainah]

rules question:
Vichy has benne enacted. Germany holds Normandy and France.

Can Italy take Southern France with an AA gun on NCM? The BM rules state any axis occupation following armistice…

[gamerman01]

You can’t activate a neutral with AAA, per Krieghund (Kevin Chapman, actual rulebook writer)

[dawgoneit]

Good question
mainah
I never thought of that.

[mainah]

@gamerman01
Thank you gamerman.
Wasn’t sure if southern France was truly considered a friendly neutral as you don’t get the land units or the fleet when “activating” it, and you can land air there without activating it.

[pacifiersboard]

@mainah said in League General Discussion Thread:

ou can land air there without activating it

hu, you can land air there ?

[gamerman01]

My internet here has been down for awhile, I was going to double check what their notes in Triple A say but haven’t had a chance.

The balanced mod came with the Vichy rules, so that is all a house-ruled set. In other words, 2nd edition out of the box rules do not include the Vichy rules at all - the Vichy rules were created by a team of players who developed the balanced mod that is immensely popular here in the A&A.org league

Vichy territories are pro-Axis neutrals.

You can’t land air on neutrals. You can’t “activate” neutrals with only an AAA gun

So you can’t land air on South France and you can’t take it over with an AAA

[mainah]

@gamerman01
OK. Asking for a little more clarification.

Moving on from the AA gun, letting it be settled -

How are we activating a friendly neutral? The army there isn’t activated like it would be if Vichy Morrocco had an Italian inf move in. Even in the notes, its not labelled as a Vichy Territory like the others, it is called Libre Zone. The army and navy disappears. It’s more like a occupation of foreign troops, just not contested.

Would that mean we should be doing it on a CM move?

With the exception of Southern France (see discussion of “Zone Libere” below), Vichy French territory operates the same way as other Pro-Axis Neutral territory. An Axis player may capture Vichy French territory and commandeer its forces by moving a land unit into the territory during the non-combat phase of his turn. Fly-over restrictions applicable to other Neutral territories do not apply to Vichy French territory.

Fleet at Toulon: In addition to the change in French territorial control, the Armistice changes control of the the French fleet in sz 93, from French to Pro-Axis neutral. The Vichy French fleet maintains a strictly defensive posture. It may not be moved. It may not be captured by the Axis. The fleet is immediately destroyed if any power, other than the Free French, occupies Southern France

“Zone Libre”: Any Axis occupation of Southern France following the Armistice results in the scuttling of the Vichy French Fleet at Toulon and the disbandment of all remaining Vichy French forces. These forces are removed at the end of the Axis player’s turn in which the occupation of Southern France takes place. Any formerly Vichy French forces that were previously commandeered by the Axis are unaffected by this change.

Armistice’s Effect on National Objectives: Following the armistice, Southern France is considered Axis-controlled for purposes of Italy’s “Roman Empire” objective. Otherwise, the Vichy France arrangement has no impact on National Objectives. Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco must still be directly occupied by Germany or Italy to achieve Italy’s “North Africa” objective. Japanese occupation of French Indo China still negates Japan’s “Trade With America” objective. Liberation of France: The Allied liberation of France effectively terminates the Armistice. Any territory and forces still under Vichy French control (including any surviving fleet in sz 93) revert back to Free French control. The Vichy French forces in the Southern France and sz 93 will also revert back if Southern France is liberated by the Free French.

[mainah]

Please note i forgot to bold

"WITH THE EXCFEPTION OF SOUTHERN FRANCE, VICHY FRENCH territory operates the same way as other pro-axis neutrals.

[mainah]

@mainah
Notes say any axis occupation, not axis activation.

[gamerman01]

I appreciate that you copied and pasted here -

Is the matter in question about landing air on South France?

French Territorial Control: At the beginning of France’s first turn in which Armistice conditions are met, all originally French territories not already under Axis control immediately change ownership to Pro-Axis Neutrals, except: (1) French Equatorial Africa; (2) New Hebrides; (2) any French territories containing non-French allied land units.

South France is a pro-Axis neutral, you can’t land air on neutrals unless it’s already been attacked

[mainah]

@gamerman01
What about the part where it says “except for southern France (see discussion of Zone Libere below)”

As in that specific territory is named as not being affected by the pro-axis neutral change. It has its own section, where it refers to occupation, not activation. Fly overs are permitted. I get now that landing is not.

[gamerman01]

I’m glad you press until you have everything answered in your mind.

The “except for” doesn’t mean South France is not a pro-Axis neutral. The “Zone Libre” section just says the fleet sinks, remaining Vichy French forces disappear, and infantry taken over by the Axis remain with the Axis.

None of the “except for” changes any of its attributes as a pro-Axis neutral

And without making sure, I don’t believe “activation” is the correct term for taking control of neutrals in 2nd edition rules, so it may help clear up confusion to not use that term

[gamerman01]

You’re right, they permit fly-overs of any Vichy French territory

[mainah]

@gamerman01

Thank you for the answer.

Activation is used in the rule book. Pg 10 in Europe. The standing army is activated.

Where as in southern France, the army is not activated, but disbanded.

If a US AAA gun counts as a land unit occupying a north African territory for a NO, why doesn’t an italian AAA count as occuping southern France (rule for Zone Libere states any axis occupation).

Not trying to be pedantic. Since your explanation on why no AAA on NCM, and rereading the BM notes vs Alpha 3+ rule book, i am coming around to the legal premise it should be an CM, not a NCM, move. The notes are worded occupy, where as there is no word occupy in the official rulebook section dealing with neutrals. There it uses move into, moving from neutral status to placing power control marker on, to activating army.

[gamerman01]

I’m glad you’re doing the research, that makes things easier.
Yes, part of the challenge here is melding 2nd edition rulebook (the official and amazing Kevin Chapman) and the BM team (players).

(US AAA counts for North Africa) And Allied AA on Sardinia/Sicily etc
This is a balanced mod concept for their new NO’s and so is not meaningful when understanding all Vichy rules.

The reason an Axis AAA doesn’t count as occupying South France is because it is against the rules for the AAA to enter the territory (in NCM) by itself.

I sense confusion in your last paragraph. I will attempt to help.
AAA is never moved on a combat move. Friendly neutrals are activated in noncombat. But AAA alone can’t activate a friendly neutral.
So you take control of a friendly neutral by “moving” in with infantry, artillery, mechanized infantry, or armor.

[mainah]

@gamerman01
Sorry - I have moved passed the use of the AAA. I now fully understand why that doesn’t work.

The last two of my posts are about how Zone Libere is not an pro-axis neutral. So it should only be occupied on a CM, not a non-cm.

Note that the army and navy there disband if either the acis or allies enter. They only activate if a) france is liberated by the allies or b) southern france is occupied by the free French.

[mainah]

How does a pro-axis territory that has a standing army become an allied power territory with that said army when another allied army liberates a different territory?

[gamerman01]

@mainah said in League General Discussion Thread:

The last two of my posts are about how Zone Libere is not an pro-axis neutral. So it should only be occupied on a CM, not a non-cm.

@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:

French Territorial Control: At the beginning of France’s first turn in which Armistice conditions are met, all originally French territories not already under Axis control immediately change ownership to Pro-Axis Neutrals, except: (1) French Equatorial Africa; (2) New Hebrides; (2) any French territories containing non-French allied land units.

South France is a pro-Axis neutral

I will be more clear. "all orginally French territories not already under Axis control" includes South France!
South France is a pro-Axis neutral immediately on France’s turn when Vichy conditions have been met.
As a pro-Axis neutral, the Axis take control by moving in during non-combat, and the Allies take control by attacking it. The difference (for the actual territory of South France) is that the infantry and artillery there vaporize and cannot be controlled by the Axis.

[gamerman01]

@mainah said in League General Discussion Thread:

How does a pro-axis territory that has a standing army become an allied power territory with that said army when another allied army liberates a different territory?

I don’t understand your question

[mainah]

@gamerman01

Sorry. I think I had it in my head that the part

With the exception of Southern France (see discussion of “Zone Libere” below), Vichy French territory operates the same way as other Pro-Axis Neutral territory. An Axis player may capture Vichy French territory and commandeer its forces by moving a land unit into the territory during the non-combat phase of his turn.

was before

At the beginning of France’s first turn in which Armistice conditions are met, all originally French territories not already under Axis control immediately change ownership to Pro-Axis Neutrals, except: (1) French Equatorial Africa; (2) New Hebrides; (2) any French territories containing non-French allied land units.

Secondly

@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:

@mainah said in League General Discussion Thread:

How does a pro-axis territory that has a standing army become an allied power territory with that said army when another allied army liberates a different territory?

I don’t understand your question

The pro axis neutral southern france has 1 inf, 1 art, 1 CZ, 1 DD that will revert back to french control if the allies liberate Paris.

If the rules are taken at face value, in the order that they are written, I see what you are saying.

But if I am trying to understand that Southern France is:

• pro-axis neutral
• except for the fact that you can fly over without occupying it
• you can occupy it as the Axis but the army disbands, not activate like a pro-axis neutral
• the allies have to fight for it like any other pro-axis neutral
• unless they liberate france, in which case the pro-axis neutral units in southern france become french again
• or a French unit liberates southern france, in which case the pro-axis neutral units become free french

the rule that it is a pro-axis neutral does not seem to fit.

That creates another question: If a Free French unit (allied) enters in an liberates Southern France, activating the army/navy as french, do they do it on CM, or non-CM? Why to whatever the answer is.